The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[Big Fras]

Where that falls down is where a poster choses to launch an character assassination against a key member of our club via the PM system of B&WArmy - not a character assassination of an online alias but a key member of our club. When sent by PM with a message that the character assassination does not allow the slander to be challenged in the open forum or the spreader of the bile to be challenged by other forum members. Sending such a character assassination to Internet aliases of people that the rumour spreader has never even met is questionable judgement - having received such a PM and explained that I wasn't interested the dafty continues to slabber their bile. Again highly questionable judgement and not reasonable behaviour in my very humble opinion. However, I digress and will leave it to Big Fras to explain what he is up to with that nonsense.

Sid - I PM'd you to provide a bit of background as to why a certain situation had arisen, in the light of several comments you had made. It would not have helped anyone involved for it to have been posted on the forum. It was not libellous, and not a "character assasination". It was indeed fact that could be backed up by several people in a business arena that is unrelated to SMFC. It had nothing to do with the CIC bid (for which I am behind), and you damn well know that.

I took this forum at face value, and PMd a regular fan (you) and nobody else. Your twisting of my words and intentions is getting out of hand. I'm quite a chilled out chap these days, and have no time for violence. Time, experience and some sound business contacts have taught me that there are much better ways to sort things out. Keep out of my way and I'll do likewise.

[Evil_Panda]

Sid - I PM'd you to provide a bit of background as to why a certain situation had arisen, in the light of several comments you had made. It would not have helped anyone involved for it to have been posted on the forum. It was not libellous, and not a "character assasination". It was indeed fact that could be backed up by several people in a business arena that is unrelated to SMFC. It had nothing to do with the CIC bid (for which I am behind), and you damn well know that.

I took this forum at face value, and PMd a regular fan (you) and nobody else. Your twisting of my words and intentions is getting out of hand. I'm quite a chilled out chap these days, and have no time for violence. Time, experience and some sound business contacts have taught me that there are much better ways to sort things out. Keep out of my way and I'll do likewise.

learned your lesson there mate, the guy is a fud.

[davidg]

£860k was the figure listed as owed by the club to various organizations in the last set of accounts (May 31, 2010).

In your information document you say

So has this debt been repayed or do you mean something different?

Is it listed as outsatnding loans or monies owed to creditors?

[Guest somner9]

It states its funding comes from the enhanced trading of smfc, ie, the new business it will attract thanks to the cic - birthdays, weddings, funerals etc. No supporters money there.

And as has been mentioned recently, can and won't are two different things. If anyone was getting paid which would go against the whole ethos and morals of what the cic is apparently standing for, then a mass exodus of members would occur and the cic would collapse. Also, there would be nothing preventing yourself from nomination as a member of the board, or any other cic member, which would make it highly unlikely that any directors would do anything to jeopardize their position ie, take a wage.

This isn't a traditional takeover where the new owner promises x amount to the team budget, its a transfer of ownership from 5 saints fans to over 300 saints fans. And if its successful, in future any money the cic makes can be transferred to the team budget.

It can't be successful without the community being interested, that includes yourself, for the price of a pint a week. If you don't like it, then you don't renew. But the initial uptake is important as it generates more interest, ie more members, which in the future can help the team!

any enhanced trading which includes "A Bar" or new/different catering facilities, a shop, the 87 club, lottery etc etc comes from supporters, plus the events you mention already take place at GHR.

Can and won't are two different things, however when there are debts to pay, which is what happens as soon as 10000 hours comes into existence then that company will use the means at its disposal to pay those debts, it actually tells us this.

a CiC like any company can pay its directors, there has been no statement from 10000 hours to say that directors will not be paid, and i would be pleasantly surprised if there was one.

the inception of the CiC attracts a debt of £2m, the 300 individuals do not have ownership of SMFC, yes five of them will be on the 10000 hours members board, but not the club board.

monies made by a CiC can be paid to its community stakeholders i.e. SMFC, A Church, A Nursery, Old Folks Home, Neighbourhood watch etc ... whoever the 24 community member are basically

a CiC is a company which is perfectly entitled to pay its directors, it does not differ from other companies in that way, the differential is that it can access funding and loans from various bodies to achive its aims, as long as those aims benefit EVERY stakeholder.

yes potentially SMFC could benefit from a CiC but by design it MUST benefit its community members! don't take my word for it ask 10000 hours if it intends to return profit to it's community members. think on they put £500 in how much does the support put in?

personally i really don't know given the complexities this set up has by its very nature if it will benefit SMFC in the long run? but i know it starts life with £2m debt dont forget, and it has said this will be paid for by membership but also by club turnover, who do you think will come first for any enhanced profit payout?

The Club

The Community Members

The Debtors

[faraway saint]

Sid - I PM'd you to provide a bit of background as to why a certain situation had arisen, in the light of several comments you had made. It would not have helped anyone involved for it to have been posted on the forum. It was not libellous, and not a "character assasination". It was indeed fact that could be backed up by several people in a business arena that is unrelated to SMFC. It had nothing to do with the CIC bid (for which I am behind), and you damn well know that.

I took this forum at face value, and PMd a regular fan (you) and nobody else. Your twisting of my words and intentions is getting out of hand. I'm quite a chilled out chap these days, and have no time for violence. Time, experience and some sound business contacts have taught me that there are much better ways to sort things out. Keep out of my way and I'll do likewise.

Without knowing, or requiring to know, any of the said "background" it's a pity your good intentions have been dropped into the gutter in Sids desire to be the Site know all.

Your response, both dignified and straight to the point, deserves the backing of the majority of supporters and Sid should learn a lesson, although I doubt he will.

[Guest somner9]

Incorrect.

Is 10000hours controls the 52% then as noted in the document (within the rules noted) a simple majorty of the 48% can elect 1 director.

This will be to the board of St Mirren FC.

Only CIC members (individual, corporate and community) will be able to be elected to the CIC elected members board

10000hours CIC

sincere apologies for getting that arms about face. but it isn't in the gift of 10000 hours to tell the other 48% they are allowed to vote a board member. thats a right under the companies act 2006 is it not

[Guest somner9]

No wages will be paid to Atkinson from either the members board or the club board, and none have been paid historically

The current board take no wages from the club

thanks for clarifying that. will any of 10000 hours directors be paid?

[Guest somner9]

This could happen.

Anyone that choses to become a member in any of the categories can stand for election, but they have to be elected in the process there is no "hey presto" about it, no automatic right of sitting on either the 10000hours board or the club board.

10000housr CIC

again thank you for this confirmation. so the board members of SMFC at the time of a successful sale of 52% shareholding to 10000 hours will seek to elect new board members that could be anyone?

[St. Sid]

any enhanced trading which includes "A Bar" or new/different catering facilities, a shop, the 87 club, lottery etc etc comes from supporters, plus the events you mention already take place at GHR.

Can and won't are two different things, however when there are debts to pay, which is what happens as soon as 10000 hours comes into existence then that company will use the means at its disposal to pay those debts, it actually tells us this.

a CiC like any company can pay its directors, there has been no statement from 10000 hours to say that directors will not be paid, and i would be pleasantly surprised if there was one.

the inception of the CiC attracts a debt of £2m, the 300 individuals do not have ownership of SMFC, yes five of them will be on the 10000 hours members board, but not the club board.

monies made by a CiC can be paid to its community stakeholders i.e. SMFC, A Church, A Nursery, Old Folks Home, Neighbourhood watch etc ... whoever the 24 community member are basically

a CiC is a company which is perfectly entitled to pay its directors, it does not differ from other companies in that way, the differential is that it can access funding and loans from various bodies to achive its aims, as long as those aims benefit EVERY stakeholder.

yes potentially SMFC could benefit from a CiC but by design it MUST benefit its community members! don't take my word for it ask 10000 hours if it intends to return profit to it's community members. think on they put £500 in how much does the support put in?

personally i really don't know given the complexities this set up has by its very nature if it will benefit SMFC in the long run? but i know it starts life with £2m debt dont forget, and it has said this will be paid for by membership but also by club turnover, who do you think will come first for any enhanced profit payout?

The Club

The Community Members

The Debtors

somner9, you were starting to make a bit of sence for a while there and even some of the questions above are good as they offer an opportunity for 10,000 hours to clarify the concerns you have. But then you go and spoil decent posts by claiming that it will all start with a £2m debt, which people already know is not going to be the case. There's some good questions there but they would be better asked without the scaremongering spin.

[steve_the_saint]

any enhanced trading which includes "A Bar" or new/different catering facilities, a shop, the 87 club, lottery etc etc comes from supporters, plus the events you mention already take place at GHR.

Can and won't are two different things, however when there are debts to pay, which is what happens as soon as 10000 hours comes into existence then that company will use the means at its disposal to pay those debts, it actually tells us this.

a CiC like any company can pay its directors, there has been no statement from 10000 hours to say that directors will not be paid, and i would be pleasantly surprised if there was one.

the inception of the CiC attracts a debt of £2m, the 300 individuals do not have ownership of SMFC, yes five of them will be on the 10000 hours members board, but not the club board.

monies made by a CiC can be paid to its community stakeholders i.e. SMFC, A Church, A Nursery, Old Folks Home, Neighbourhood watch etc ... whoever the 24 community member are basically

a CiC is a company which is perfectly entitled to pay its directors, it does not differ from other companies in that way, the differential is that it can access funding and loans from various bodies to achive its aims, as long as those aims benefit EVERY stakeholder.

yes potentially SMFC could benefit from a CiC but by design it MUST benefit its community members! don't take my word for it ask 10000 hours if it intends to return profit to it's community members. think on they put £500 in how much does the support put in?

personally i really don't know given the complexities this set up has by its very nature if it will benefit SMFC in the long run? but i know it starts life with £2m debt dont forget, and it has said this will be paid for by membership but also by club turnover, who do you think will come first for any enhanced profit payout?

The Club

The Community Members

The Debtors

I took it as being that any new business as a result of the cic would be used to pay off any debt - this would include a bar (would this be cic owned or club owned in terms of profit making and running?) - so the club wouldn't be any worse off as we don't have these income avenues at the moment anyway.

And you say its fans money because they are spending it in the bar, but if they are going to spend that money elsewhere anyway, ie, the last post or bar point, then it makes sense for that money to stay in house.

On the 10,000 hours thread it states that RA won't be taking a wage from either the cic or the club board...I'd assume that would be the same for any other elected board member (to either board) and in this sense, we won't be any worse off.

Maybe the community members are making money purely by using the facilities for free. How much would a church group spend renting premises a year? Over 500quid a year would seem plausible (im just guessing - 500quid would be about 11quid a week). They would have the benefit of greenhill road and maybe use ralston for village fetes etc. - the church group is an example, I'm sure if you were to look at the different types of community groups, you could have the same argument.

The debt isn't strictly 2m quid, the majority of it will be grants - which I know can get called in ie, by the national lottery if they are not used for what they were given, this won't happen as long as the cic is run properly.

So even saying 500,000 of the 2m is a loan ( again an assumption, probably lower than this, could be higher) this 500,000 is paid off over the next, say, 10 years via 40grand ind members + 12grand comm members + 120grand corp members --- 170grand a year, minus running costs. As long as the cic is run properly, this could easily be achieved with some left over to improve the team or the facilities - and the loans are "soft" which safeguards any facilities from being sold off and - I'm not an expert on it - does this not mean they are considerably more lenient than a bank if it can't be paid in the agreed time, ie, they're happy to extend the payoff period for not much more extra cost?

If all if this happens, the club will not be worse off than we are now....as long as the cic is run properly - any cic dealings will not be able to be hidden, the members board ultimately answers to the cic members - which means as many people as possible signing up.

Sounds like a no brainer to me!

Edited April 17, 2011 by steve_the_saint

[St. Sid]

Without knowing, or requiring to know, any of the said "background" it's a pity your good intentions......

The first part of your post is the critical part. I did not wish to know either. Instead I had hearsay dropped into my PM box which I have absolutely no interest in. And trust me it is all hearsay and there is no fact in it, and I certainly won't be repeating it.

I also think you are right about the good intentions, sadly I think the emotional involvement has skewed Fras's perspective on this as can be exemplified by his involvement in spreading hearsay. I actually have great respect for the person being slandered as will many St Mirren fans.

The question should be about whether it is right to spread hearsay about a man that has done great things for St Mirren or not. I think your guidance would be best directed to the person spreading gossip along with claims relating to the viability of commercial decisions being made at the club.

Again, I think the intentions actually come from a good place; however I do think spreading hearsay whilst trying to undermine commercial operations at the club is questionable judgement and certainly does St Mirren no favours at this critical time in its future.

Let's have the debate in the open and on the merits of the proposals themselves.

[bluto]

And you say its fans money because they are spending it in the bar, but if they are going to spend that money elsewhere anyway, ie, the last post or bar point, then it makes sense for that money to stay in house.

Of course, there will be those who'd point out that an in-house bar will be buggering up local community businesses by 'stealing their custom'...

Maybe the community members are making money purely by using the facilities for free. How much would a church group spend renting premises a year? Over 500quid a year would seem plausible (im just guessing - 500quid would be about 11quid a week). They would have the benefit of greenhill road and maybe use ralston for village fetes etc. - the church group is an example, I'm sure if you were to look at the different types of community groups, you could have the same argument.

Aye, but... logic dictates that you wonder why such community groups don't just hire space in, say... the Toon Hall for £500.00 p.a. or would that be more expensive/not possible...? Or is the OP example in Stock Street already much more expensive...? What IS the USP of GHR that would make the CiC work?

[faraway saint]

The first part of your post is the critical part. I did not wish to know either. Instead I had hearsay dropped into my PM box which I have absolutely no interest in. And trust me it is all hearsay and there is no fact in it, and I certainly won't be repeating it.

I also think you are right about the good intentions, sadly I think the emotional involvement has skewed Fras's perspective on this as can be exemplified by his involvement in spreading hearsay. I actually have great respect for the person being slandered as will many St Mirren fans.

The question should be about whether it is right to spread hearsay about a man that has done great things for St Mirren or not. I think your guidance would be best directed to the person spreading gossip along with claims relating to the viability of commercial decisions being made at the club.

Again, I think the intentions actually come from a good place; however I do think spreading hearsay whilst trying to undermine commercial operations at the club is questionable judgement and certainly does St Mirren no favours at this critical time in its future.

Let's have the debate in the open and on the merits of the proposals themselves.

You missed out the best bit...................."the site know all" obviously is a title you're quite proud to hold?

Edited April 17, 2011 by faraway saint

[St. Sid]

Sid - I PM'd you to provide a bit of background as to why a certain situation had arisen, in the light of several comments you had made. It would not have helped anyone involved for it to have been posted on the forum. It was not libellous, and not a "character assasination". It was indeed fact that could be backed up by several people in a business arena that is unrelated to SMFC. It had nothing to do with the CIC bid (for which I am behind), and you damn well know that.

I took this forum at face value, and PMd a regular fan (you) and nobody else. Your twisting of my words and intentions is getting out of hand. I'm quite a chilled out chap these days, and have no time for violence. Time, experience and some sound business contacts have taught me that there are much better ways to sort things out. Keep out of my way and I'll do likewise.

That's an odd post Fras. Glad to hear you have no time for violence, neither do I so why mention it?

Fras, it does not help anyone involved for you to be sending what is slander to an Internet email alias and hardly the most sensible poster in B&WArmy. It is not fact, it is hearsay and you do yourself no favours repeating it. You sent this information to me, a family friend of the person you are slandering.

I never asked you to send the PM. I have told you that I am not happy with the content and that it is hearsay. Instead of "keep out of my way" you should be apologising to me and the person you are spreading hearsay about. Judging by the tone of your email I would be astounded if you aren't repeating the hearsay to anyone that will listen to you.

[steve_the_saint]

again thank you for this confirmation. so the board members of SMFC at the time of a successful sale of 52% shareholding to 10000 hours will seek to elect new board members that could be anyone?

They probably could.

But if the current board nominate themselves then I can't really see past them being voted back in. For the most part itl probably continue as it is now - however at least the board will have the members to answer to and any majorly important decisions , such as the 10 team spl, would be voted for - much like how a trade union operates, and by all accounts, that's exactly what itl be like.

[pozbaird]

With all due respect to everyone involved, I have absolutely no interest in the spat between St Sid and Fras, nor did I have any interest in whatever Stuart Dickson's altercation with SG was about in days gone by. The debate about the future of our club is being de-railed, and I say this as someone who is guilty of posting some right pish myself at times. I do however try to keep my personal problems to the PM system.

[St. Sid]

With all due respect to everyone involved, I have absolutely no interest in the spat between St Sid and Fras, nor did I have any interest in whatever Stuart Dickson's altercation with SG was about in days gone by. The debate about the future of our club is being de-railed, and I say this as someone who is guilty of posting some right pish myself at times. I do however try to keep my personal problems to the PM system.

Agreed pozbaird, my last word on it is that the rumour is entirely hearsay and that is the only fact in this. Matter closed as far as I am concerned. What is happening just now is far too important to be side track by personal issues with the club or club officials.

[pozbaird]

No worries Sid, I'm thinking maybe a good community use of the new members bar would be a boxing night. Top of the bill Slugger Sid v Fightin' Fraz.

On the subject of the members (and guests) 'facility'. It needs a name. The CIC have come up with the '87 Club' for a membership scheme. How about organising a competition for fans to submit suggestions to name the new bar? That would be community involvement. Winner gets free corporate hospitality, a wee piece in the match programme...

[bud77]

They probably could.

But if the current board nominate themselves then I can't really see past them being voted back in. For the most part itl probably continue as it is now - however at least the board will have the members to answer to and any majorly important decisions , such as the 10 team spl, would be voted for - much like how a trade union operates, and by all accounts, that's exactly what itl be like.

If the current board nominate themselves doesn't that defeat the purpose of the sale - the 5 person consortium basically want out in order to freshen things up. I would have nothing against them being consultants during a transition period but they have publically stated they have no more to give.

[civilsaint]

Something tells me that Sommer9 has some sort of agenda. Or, maybe I've got it wrong and he's just an abnoxious character by nature.

[steve_the_saint]

Maybe in future, if the cic is extremely successful, there would be a seperate 10000 hours charity pot fund - funded from the cic income - for the community members to apply to use for various events, ie maybe a church group would have a kids Xmas party paid for from the fund. Any applications would be decided by the members board, just like any other funding body - it would probably operate like a credit union.

Nobody takes anything financially from these community groups anyway so to imply that they would be profiting out of it without any evidence is a bit of paranoid scaremongery.

Even without the possibility of this until maybe a year or two down the line, for these community groups, even being part of the cic could be to their advantage. The contacts network within the cic could be put to good use - a skills trade for example - and they would actually be contributing towards a greater community, which has maybe been lost lately, as opposed to being an isolated group.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Maybe in future, if the cic is extremely successful, there would be a seperate 10000 hours charity pot fund - funded from the cic income - for the community members to apply to use for various events, ie maybe a church group would have a kids Xmas party paid for from the fund. Any applications would be decided by the members board, just like any other funding body - it would probably operate like a credit union.

Nobody takes anything financially from these community groups anyway so to imply that they would be profiting out of it without any evidence is a bit of paranoid scaremongery.

Even without the possibility of this until maybe a year or two down the line, for these community groups, even being part of the cic could be to their advantage. The contacts network within the cic could be put to good use - a skills trade for example - and they would actually be contributing towards a greater community, which has maybe been lost lately, as opposed to being an isolated group.

Personally I hope the whole point of the CIC is to better St Mirren Football club on the park.

[steve_the_saint]

If the current board nominate themselves doesn't that defeat the purpose of the sale - the 5 person consortium basically want out in order to freshen things up. I would have nothing against them being consultants during a transition period but they have publically stated they have no more to give.

I can still see them being on the board for the first year or two until the cic gets up and running properly, as part of the transition phase. Although maybe not as active as they are currently.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Something tells me that Sommer9 has some sort of agenda. Or, maybe I've got it wrong and he's just an abnoxious character by nature.

Surly a public forum can have differing views which is the whole point of debate , no.

Fans who are not too sure about the CIC are the ones throwing up the best questions as far as I can read.

The only thing I would like to see is an exact break down of all loans and grants.

How much has to be paid back , monthly cost and for how long

What happens should membership fall short in three years and membership alone has not enough funds raised to pay said loans. Who is responsible.

Until the above is answered in a clear and crystal way we will not know at what risk this whole CIC things is.However I am sure this question has been sent hundreds of times by e-mail for an official response.

[steve_the_saint]

Surly a public forum can have differing views which is the whole point of debate , no.

Fans who are not too sure about the CIC are the ones throwing up the best questions as far as I can read.

The only thing I would like to see is an exact break down of all loans and grants.

How much has to be paid back , monthly cost and for how long

What happens should membership fall short in three years and membership alone has not enough funds raised to pay said loans. Who is responsible.

Until the above is answered in a clear and crystal way we will not know at what risk this whole CIC things is.However I am sure this question has been sent hundreds of times by e-mail for an official response.

You're right in saying that the forum is open to all opinions and the best questions are coming from the cynics but somner9 has consistently tried to imply that some people have underhand intentions to make money from the cic, based on no evidence at all. He's also been exaggerating the amount of loans and debt that wel be in and is trying to discredit the cic at every possible opportunity - despite constantly being put right.

However, Some people just have a cynical, negative Outlook on life - maybe he's one of them.