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[dave.j]

dave I am all for fan ownership.

I want to get behind SMFC going down this route.

I am not convinced that the model that has been presented to us is genuinely fan ownership.

At the moment there is a lot of spin and emotional blackmail to get the fans to sign up to something that IMo appears to benefit only those wishing to sell their shares.

Cheers tony, for me, tonight I saw exactly what I expected to see.

RA confirmed how the model will move forward.

Maybe I'm doing folk a disservice. But it seems a lot of folk are unclear on the fact that. Whilst this may be pushed as a chance for clarity and for the fans to control the boardroom.

Club boardroom meetings will be tied down in privacy. I saw in the jags trust, the majority of club board meetings... The jags trust board rep couldn't discuss specific items with the trusts directors, issues of major concern with the fans. He was bound by confidentiality.

Even the majority of decisions made by the CIC board, will not be decided by you the member, it will be decide by the board you elect.

But for 10 pound per month, you have a chance to be involved in actions that could effect the future of the club. How? As a member you have a vote. It could be a vote on changing the colour of your strip to gain financial backing.

Half the club board may back that idea, with the CIC you could stop that with 52% of the vote.

Do you have that now?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

They dont want to but what if they need to sell. Never believed they would wait forever. It seems quite clear they are going to sell before new season. I fans do not take the opportunity now who knows who we will get but IMO it will be funded by loans placed in the clubs name.

The consortium was formed because they decided that they wanted to sell, not that they had too.

This was why I made the comment about anyone wishing to buy my shares.

The only reason I could imagine for them all having or needing to sell now, urgently, would involve decisions made by the SPL and/or SFA regarding the tax cheats along Paisley Road West.

All shareholders have invested financially in the club, granted to vastly differing degrees. However those who invested / inherited more shares also received a greater level of importance and decision making at the club as well as having a greater liability.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Do you have that now?

I always did have it.

[Big Fras]

I have exchanged emails with him, read the CiC info, asked him some more questions via the 10000hours website, paid close attention to the information posted about the CIC meetings and come to my decision - it's not for me.

********************************

I have a degree of admiration for the guys signing up @ £10p/m - if the estimate of 8 years to pay off the debt is correct then that's a grand committment - and AFAIK that's before GLS gets his slice.

Hopefully these should be my final words on the matter.

And they are fairly damning.

One thing: RA's efforts have clearly shown that there is an appetite for local businesses/community groups to get involvd in funding SMFC (albeit via the CiC), not to mention supporter involvement. I think that any prospective buyer who ignores this is mad.

RE: SG and his previous claims. Why not stipulate that any firm buying SMFC cannot hock the asking price against the actual club, Not that hard to do, and I'm sure he is a man of his word, given the KMG tarring & feathering.

[dave.j]

All shareholders have invested financially in the club, granted to vastly differing degrees. However those who invested / inherited more shares also received a greater level of importance and decision making at the club as well as having a greater liability.

Is the greater importance a good or a bad thing, to you?

How will they have less liability now?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Is the greater importance a good or a bad thing, to you?

How will they have less liability now?

just pointing out that there were also benefits to having a seat on the board as well as having potential liabilities.

I am assuming that the selling consortium will lose the liabilities by not being on the board / majority shareholders.

[dave.j]

Sorry, I thought you meant the remaining 48% would have less liability and responsibility.

And have their share diluted.

My mistake.

Thumbs up smilie.

[BLF]

Can anyone generate a quick cashflow for the CIC i.e.:

Initial outlay is £1.5m (?) - where does that money come from on day 0?

How much is a loan? what is the required monthly repayments

What is the term of the loan(s)?

What is envisaged as the monthly takings from subs etc?

[bud77]

I was pretty underwhelmed by the meeting. I had hoped for addtional information; however it was pretty much the same sales pitch I have sat through a number of times. The detail I'd hoped we'd see never transpired.

It was pretty much a case of you need to act now, the consortium will sell to a bidder - no details available on who the bidders are or the nature of the bids - that information won't be in the article tomorrow - just confirmation of two bids from SG.

The finance slide, which I believe Div has made available online had even less info than the FAQ response and there was a fair bit of waffling when some chap who I don't think was from SMiSA questioned it.

The challenge to all fans at the end was to get out and convince everyone you know. Saddens me to say it, but as much as I'd like to convince myself that this will work it all sounds half-baked. The main element I would like to be convinced about is the financial side. The final appeal from REA related to get your friends signed up, if they do they're only risking £50 - I don't think anyone is worried about risking £50 - it is all about the club.

If it all looks okay after a few months and I can actually see how the CIC performs against the debt then I will sign up to help get rid of the debt faster.

Genuinely hope it works out, but not prepared to sign up to something that could put the club at risk. The club's future is not mine to gamble with.

Everything has risk involved, sometimes it's a question of balancing one risk against the other. We have 3 offers for the club, 2 we know nothing about and 1 we know a little about that involves the fans and community. I know which one I see as the lesser risk.

[dave.j]

I always did have it.

In what way do you have it, what % of club shares do you own?

[St. Sid]

dave I am all for fan ownership.

I want to get behind SMFC going down this route.

I am not convinced that the model that has been presented to us is genuinely fan ownership.

At the moment there is a lot of spin and emotional blackmail to get the fans to sign up to something that IMo appears to benefit only those wishing to sell their shares.

I believe that the original model was. As more pressure has been put on the finances, the fan / community involvement has been reduced. There is now significant financial pressure involved in the CIC - risk essentially....as risk increases so does the desire for control of decision making. It is entirely understandable that is the case.

That has been rendered all but irrelevant with the statement from SG. They have moved the decision from being about whether the CIC is actually desirable or not, to - is it the lesser of two evils. It is a push that forces the fans hand - rather convenient that a deadline just happened to coincide with it all, and the info gets released with just days to go until the deadline. They admitted they would get more bids if Reg Brealey walked into the room and declared his interest. They've created a bogie man, two bogie men in fact. Is that bollox? Might well be - helluva risk to take to ignore it.

The CIC is now being sold purely on fear of something that might happen, rather than its own merits / viability. Throw in the deadline and last night being the "final opportunity" to ask questions and you have exactly what I said it would be - foot in the door double glazing sales tactics. There's no partnership there - the fans are consumers being sold to.

If the bids are real, and we are going to have to take the word of a number of people with vested interests - then the club is in the shitter. All the effort of getting rid of the debt, selling Love Street and making ourselves one of the best run clubs in the country is about to be undone. The fans are now in a catch22. We have a sketchy at best offer from 10000 Hours......it DOES have elements of fan involvement; however fan involvement in a bag of hopeful shite is about as attractive as involvement in a car crash.

Other bids do not make 10000 Hours any more of an attractive proposition - it just puts the fans in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

This is a dark day for the fans of St Mirren Football Club. We got rid of the debt - now it looks increasingly likely that we are going to be back to square one. The debt we all worked so hard to get rid of is very much back to haunt us. Any cnut that is celebrating this situation isn't right in the f'k'n head.

We are now heading into a period of uncertainty about the clubs future. None of this is good news. Stop kidding yourselves on that it is.

Edited June 8, 2012 by St. Sid

[Guest TPAFKATS]

In what way do you have it, what % of club shares do you own?

I have it in the way that you asked it - I understand your post. Hope this helps!

My share ownership is insignificant much the same as the vast majority of shareholders. Why do you ask?

[dave.j]

just asking as i picked up (maybe wrongly) you think that being a CIC member will not give you any more influence in the boardroom than you already have.

however, if you have an insignificant shareholding at present, then joining the CIC will greatly increase your influence in the boardroom.

being a member of the cic will give you the opportunity to be elected to the Club board, an option, again that you don't have as a minority shareholder.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

just asking as i picked up (maybe wrongly) you think that being a CIC member will not give you any more influence in the boardroom than you already have.

however, if you have an insignificant shareholding at present, then joining the CIC will greatly increase your influence in the boardroom.

being a member of the cic will give you the opportunity to be elected to the Club board, an option, again that you don't have as a minority shareholder.

My small shareholding was purchased to help the club out. As you say it gives me no say in how the club is run. Paying £10 a month will get me a vote along with hundreds, thousands?, of others but wont increase my influence in the boardroom. Good spin though

Yes I could stand for election to the board, which if approved by the current board will see me looking to fight fellow CiC members for a minority role. In this role I would be required to represent the views of the majority of the CiC members. So still not increasing my individual influence over how the club is run. Good spin though

I actually find it quite distasteful that we are asked to fund a buyout that involves burdening the CiC / and by extension us and the club with roughly the same level of debt that almost made us bankrupt a few years ago.

I also find it concerning that we are asked to blindly sign up for this with no real info as to what the figures will be.

Normally when selling / buying you enter into negotiations over price. In this case it seems that the selling consortium are dictating what their shares will be sold for and we have to get on with it no matter what we think of the price or conditions. Its a buyers market for football clubs at the moment is it not? For example if you were selling your house you might have to negotiate or lower the price if you hadn't been successful after 2 years.

Oh and they are going to sell to mystery consortium types in the next few weeks if you dont sign up for the CiC. If this happens it will be the fans fault.

Like I said, its all a bit distasteful.

Good luck to all those who sign up. Not for me in its current form...

[WeeBud]

My small shareholding was purchased to help the club out. As you say it gives me no say in how the club is run. Paying £10 a month will get me a vote along with hundreds, thousands?, of others but wont increase my influence in the boardroom. Good spin though

Yes I could stand for election to the board, which if approved by the current board will see me looking to fight fellow CiC members for a minority role. In this role I would be required to represent the views of the majority of the CiC members. So still not increasing my individual influence over how the club is run. Good spin though

I actually find it quite distasteful that we are asked to fund a buyout that involves burdening the CiC / and by extension us and the club with roughly the same level of debt that almost made us bankrupt a few years ago.

I also find it concerning that we are asked to blindly sign up for this with no real info as to what the figures will be.

Normally when selling / buying you enter into negotiations over price. In this case it seems that the selling consortium are dictating what their shares will be sold for and we have to get on with it no matter what we think of the price or conditions. Its a buyers market for football clubs at the moment is it not? For example if you were selling your house you might have to negotiate or lower the price if you hadn't been successful after 2 years.

Oh and they are going to sell to mystery consortium types in the next few weeks if you dont sign up for the CiC. If this happens it will be the fans fault.

Like I said, its all a bit distasteful.

Good luck to all those who sign up. Not for me in its current form...

What though would have to change to make it right for you??

[Hendo]

I've just signed up.

For me, its straightforward - grasp the chance to control our own club, or allow it to be bought by some investor who we know nothing about.

We do know about the CIC, and while they may have made mistakes, we know they have the interests of St Mirren at heart.

I think some people are making this far too complicated when really its simple - trust ourselves and people we know, or gamble on someone unknown, with no connection to the club, taking over.

My only anxiety is whether St Mirren fans stick with it, continue to pay the direct debits and don't start fighting if we're not in the Champions League in two years. From reading this forum over the past few days, sadly I'm not sure that will happen.

[slapsalmon]

The countdown clock on the counter page of 10000hours is wrong. Isnt adjusted for bst.

Edited June 8, 2012 by slapsalmon

[Drew]

It looks as though it is going to be a big ask to meet the required sign-ups by Friday.

I can understand that people have reservations, much as I have always had, but I come back to something our adopted Thistle-supporting Buddie, Dave.J., posted a few days ago about taking a punt.

For me, this is taking a punt. I don't believe that there is any sinister intent behind this final push to have the CiC purchase the majority shareholding. I have no reason to be unduly suspicious about the motives of the key players, and am willing to commit a relatively modest monthly outgoing in order to be seen to be doing my bit in terms of supporting some form of fan ownership of the club (however imperfect it might be). I'm not at all sure if the alternative is in any way preferable, whatever that might be.

It'll be a pity if it falls through. I've been pretty sceptical from day one, TBH, but something tells me that this could well be the only chance we'll ever have in terms of moving the club in this direction - the direction that is, for me, the only viable future for clubs like St Mirren. If we don't grasp the opportunity now, I reckon it will have passed us by, and I'd rather be in a position to say that I at least took a punt when the opportunity arose.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Drew

[RickMcD]

It looks as though it is going to be a big ask to meet the required sign-ups by Friday.

I can understand that people have reservations, much as I have always had, but I come back to something our adopted Thistle-supporting Buddie, Dave.J., posted a few days ago about taking a punt.

For me, this is taking a punt. I don't believe that there is any sinister intent behind this final push to have the CiC purchase the majority shareholding. I have no reason to be unduly suspicious about the motives of the key players, and am willing to commit a relatively modest monthly outgoing in order to be seen to be doing my bit in terms of supporting some form of fan ownership of the club (however imperfect it might be). I'm not at all sure if the alternative is in any way preferable, whatever that might be.

It'll be a pity if it falls through. I've been pretty sceptical from day one, TBH, but something tells me that this could well be the only chance we'll ever have in terms of moving the club in this direction - the direction that is, for me, the only viable future for clubs like St Mirren. If we don't grasp the opportunity now, I reckon it will have passed us by, and I'd rather be in a position to say that I at least took a punt when the opportunity arose.

Well put,Drew. Everything you have said echoes my thoughts entirely. Life's a risk, a punt if you like. The model that 10,000 Hours have presented isn't perfect but it's surely a reasonable prototype that can be altered and improved once up and running. I agree too that this may be the last bash we'll get at fan ownership.

[St. Sid]

Well put,Drew. Everything you have said echoes my thoughts entirely. Life's a risk, a punt if you like. The model that 10,000 Hours have presented isn't perfect but it's surely a reasonable prototype that can be altered and improved once up and running. I agree too that this may be the last bash we'll get at fan ownership.

My concern is that 10,000 whores appear to have no plan. This is very different to the Tesco sale where the deal was structured in a way that just about eradicated the risk. Even with all those belts and braces in place it was nervous times for us - however, we got the reassurances from the club about how they had tied down the contracts so that the stadium would be built within the specified budget. We didn't need to see the detail of the contracts - and to be fair the BoD didn't have to even provide us with any information. All I am hearing is that there is risk involved even if the numbers are hit. That's a big call for fans to make on behalf of all fans - which is why I have taken a different view and opted not to sign up.

[Drew]

My concern is that 10,000 whores appear to have no plan. This is very different to the Tesco sale where the deal was structured in a way that just about eradicated the risk. Even with all those belts and braces in place it was nervous times for us - however, we got the reassurances from the club about how they had tied down the contracts so that the stadium would be built within the specified budget. We didn't need to see the detail of the contracts - and to be fair the BoD didn't have to even provide us with any information. All I am hearing is that there is risk involved even if the numbers are hit. That's a big call for fans to make on behalf of all fans - which is why I have taken a different view and opted not to sign up.

Again, John, I come back to the point as to the desirability of any other options that might be out there (assuming there are any).

It is a punt/gamble/leap of faith [delete as appropriate], but what - and, indeed, where - are the other options?

This might be as good as it is going to get, for now at least.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Drew

[St. Sid]

Again, John, I come back to the point as to the desirability of any other options that might be out there (assuming there are any).

It is a punt/gamble/leap of faith [delete as appropriate], but what - and, indeed, where - are the other options?

This might be as good as it is going to get, for now at least.

Then I bring you back to my point that it was a dark day for St Mirren when the consortium made it clear that they were going to sell this summer. No one should be celebrating a £1.5Million debt that carries risk with it and that appears to come without any plan to safeguard us against that debt. By the same token I doubt many will line up to celebrate the announcement that the club has been sold to anyone. We have worked hard to get into a position of being debt free. The consortium are taking all the work, investment and loyalty of the support over the last umpteen years and are reinstating debt. The consortium walk away with £1.5Million and GLS will get a fair wedge too. Meanwhile the fans take on £1.5Million of debt.

It might be as good as it gets - but its not going to register very high on the "good" scale. Successful businessmen that play in Vegas and Bermuda(?) demanding payment from the fans that have kept the club alive through difficult times. Its enough to make an SNP cnutcillor blush.

[Stuart Dickson]

Then I bring you back to my point that it was a dark day for St Mirren when the consortium made it clear that they were going to sell this summer. No one should be celebrating a £1.5Million debt that carries risk with it and that appears to come without any plan to safeguard us against that debt. By the same token I doubt many will line up to celebrate the announcement that the club has been sold to anyone. We have worked hard to get into a position of being debt free. The consortium are taking all the work, investment and loyalty of the support over the last umpteen years and are reinstating debt. The consortium walk away with £1.5Million and GLS will get a fair wedge too. Meanwhile the fans take on £1.5Million of debt.

It might be as good as it gets - but its not going to register very high on the "good" scale. Successful businessmen that play in Vegas and Bermuda(?) demanding payment from the fans that have kept the club alive through difficult times. Its enough to make an SNP cnutcillor blush.

Totally agree. I think that is the shameful element of all this and I really can't understand why anyone would still trust Stewart Gilmour or any of the other consortium members for anything after recent episodes. They repaid St Mirren's debt after 13 years of struggle, only to put the club back heavily into debt so they can line their own pockets.

[smcc]

Totally agree. I think that is the shameful element of all this and I really can't understand why anyone would still trust Stewart Gilmour or any of the other consortium members for anything after recent episodes. They repaid St Mirren's debt after 13 years of struggle, only to put the club back heavily into debt so they can line their own pockets.

I thought that the club was virtually debt free. Any debt will be owned by the CIC, not St Mirren FC.

WRT the consortium lining their pockets, the debt that they cleared was largely covered by personal guarantees which have now been repaid. All that they want to do now is sell their shares,having spent years of their lives looking after St Mirren.

[Stuart Dickson]

I thought that the club was virtually debt free. Any debt will be owned by the CIC, not St Mirren FC.

WRT the consortium lining their pockets, the debt that they cleared was largely covered by personal guarantees which have now been repaid. All that they want to do now is sell their shares,having spent years of their lives looking after St Mirren.

You are assuming that 10000hours will take over the club. That debt could just as easily be hawked against Greenhill Road and St Mirren FC if Gilmour follows through with his promise to sell no matter what.

As for selling their shares - I've no issue with that but the market value is massively skewed. How can anyone value a business that for 12 out of 13 years barely turned a profit at £4m is beyond me, especially when that values the club at over 150% of annual turnover.