The Referendum Thread

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Is that Kezia Dugdale , labour msp who was on question time last week?

Edited January 27, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[buddiecat]

He WAS undecided, he claims, but has NOW come round to the AYEness.

That's not unreasonable justification for flooding it with AYE propaganda, surely?

absolutely not

[oaksoft]

As you claim to be a scientist yet refuse to contemplate reality, fail to address facts and just want to dump everything to...

.... land in the new irrevocable state and take it from there...

....I have to assume your field of science is astrology?

You are indulging in whim and fancy. You offer no data to persuade that you have a clue what is going on. I talk of economics: you offer up Scottish politicians. I had offered the failure of politicians being a fallibility of that breed, and you claim Scottish ones will be "better". Based on what information? What irrefutable knowledge? Is it " just something in yer watter" that is telling you this?

Scots politicians such as Broon, Darling, Blair, Smith, Cook, Dewar are lambasted but ones based in Scotland will be better. How does that work? The same hopelessly primitive analogy could be used for... British politicians IMHO will better represent British voters cos they live and work there.

The same could be said for Shetland and Orkney politicians- who, at least, would have the economic benefit of oil wealth to squander on behalf of a better heads of population ratio.

As a scientist I'd expect you deal in facts. You fail.

Starting your response to me with an ageist comment not only demonstrates the paucity of your mind but is also as illegal nowadays as is accusing others of racism. Not that I would wish this Forum to be over-moderated. I mention it in a spirit of Buddily advice: ad hominem comments are so unimpressive.

Finally, your fancy that I may be another poster's alias shows how keenly analytic a mind you have. I happened to go to school with e=mc2' s big brother. They were neighbours of mine.

With leaps of logic such as you made, perhaps your brain is closer to that of Einstein than any of us can reckon.

Or maybe Brian Epstein's brain...?

I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny or clever but you're managing neither.

Shetland? . Let them start their own independence campaign.

As for using aliases like e=mc2 - I really really don't care who you log in as you know but it does ruin the forum for everyone else.

Many members repeatedly talk about multiple aliases killing the forum.

I'll leave you to it and will be happy to talk to you again when you regain your sanity.

Edited January 27, 2014 by oaksoft

[linwood buddie]

The English and Welsh don't even want us going by recent stories .

[Stuart Dickson]

Not a single sentence of this is relevant.

Why?

Because the main swing of the polls is in the huge social classes C, D and E who simply switch off at the phrase "fiscal policy".

The No campaign is losing the masses.

As for me personally? I've already said I accept the risk of things going wrong financially.

Others will vote with their wallets in mind.

Others still will vote with their hearts.

A dwindling number of voters are listening to people like you.

Well a poll last week - you know those things you used to randomly discount - showed that a large number of Scots would change their vote if it was shown that either independence meant they would be at least £500 better off each year, or to stick with the union if it was shown that independence would cost £500 per annum extra.

The margin is ridiculously small but I'm sure as the referendum gets closer the importance of whether Scots will be better or worse off will become the determining factor and trust in fiscal policy will be paramount. While the Westminster politicians appear to be preaching austerity and even tax rises, the SNP are going to look utterly ridiculous under scrutiny when each of their panacea policies unravel through their inability to do costings.

Scots will also recognise the fact that a yes vote is irreversible while no only means no until support for independence grows to sufficient levels that another referendum would be called for. I know the Scottish voter is stupid, but they aren't quite stupid enough to piss away theirs and their childrens futures because of the SNPs irrational hatred of the English.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[oaksoft]

Well a poll last week - you know those things you used to randomly discount - showed that a large number of Scots would change their vote if it was shown that either independence meant they would be at least £500 better off each year, or to stick with the union if it was shown that independence would cost £500 per annum extra.

The margin is ridiculously small but I'm sure as the referendum gets closer the importance of whether Scots will be better or worse off will become the determining factor and trust in fiscal policy will be paramount. While the Westminster politicians appear to be preaching austerity and even tax rises, the SNP are going to look utterly ridiculous under scrutiny when each of their panacea policies unravel through their inability to do costings.

Scots will also recognise the fact that a yes vote is irreversible while no only means no until support for independence grows to sufficient levels that another referendum would be called for. I

know the Scottish voter is stupid, but they aren't quite stupid enough to piss away theirs and their childrens futures because of the SNPs irrational hatred of the English.

That last sentence of yours is beyond contempt.

That's you, Rick and bluto now talking about Yes voters being anti-English and racist.

There's not a single pro-independence post on this entire forum which is either.

If there had been, I'd have been criticising it long before you.

WTF is wrong with you people? Seriously is it supposed to be funny or "banter"?

Edited January 27, 2014 by oaksoft

[bluto]

I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny or clever but you're managing neither.

Shetland? . Let them start their own independence campaign.

As for using aliases like e=mc2 - I really really don't care who you log in as you know but it does ruin the forum for everyone else.

Many members repeatedly talk about multiple aliases killing the forum.

I'll leave you to it and will be happy to talk to you again when you regain your sanity.

So you have no facts, no logic, no rationale: nothing to bring to the debate other than deflection and whataboutery.

Fear does bring that out in lesser mortals, I believe.

I would hope an independent Scotland has more to offer than that.

[bluto]

That last sentence of yours is beyond contempt.

That's you, Rick and bluto now talking about Yes voters being anti-English and racist.

There's not a single pro-independence post on this entire forum which is either.

If there had been, I'd have been criticising it long before you.

WTF is wrong with you people? Seriously is it supposed to be funny or "banter"?

That's a downright lie. Cunto.

Show me the post in which I suggested that - or apologise, if you've got the balls for that.

[Stuart Dickson]

That last sentence of yours is beyond contempt.

That's you, Rick and bluto now talking about Yes voters being anti-English and racist.

There's not a single pro-independence post on this entire forum which is either.

If there had been, I'd have been criticising it long before you.

WTF is wrong with you people? Seriously is it supposed to be funny or "banter"?

Well you explain it then? How come the SNP believe that they can offer free further education to all EU Nationals EXCEPT the English despite what European Law says

[Vambo57]

I have decided to vote YES.

I don't want my country to be reluctantly dragged into decisions and Wars of the often Imperialist and right-wing decisions of a London Parliament. The Scots based MPs there are simply trying to protect there jobs and/or toeing the party line. I would imagine that a fair number in the Better Together camp secretly want independence for their country.

Too much party politics and deliberate misinformation on show in the wider debate, especially by the No campaign.

I believe the negative fear canpaign by the Better Together campaign is backfiring on them.

I wish both sides actually debated the Pros and Cons of Independence NOT Party Politics.They would do better to actually debate Independance in an open and honest manner and put forward their planned alternative. The Status quo will lose them the referendum IMHO.

The Scottish People are perhaps slowly realising that a Yes vote for Independence IS NOT a vote for the SNP (or The Greens). If there is a Yes vote, THEN people can vote for ANY Party they wish to govern Scotland and they will actually get the government they vote for. They do not get that at present.

As someone has already said, stop debating the minutae.

[Stuart Dickson]

I have decided to vote YES.

I don't want my country to be reluctantly dragged into decisions and Wars of the often Imperialist and right-wing decisions of a London Parliament. The Scots based MPs there are simply trying to protect there jobs and/or toeing the party line. I would imagine that a fair number in the Better Together camp secretly want independence for their country.

Too much party politics and deliberate misinformation on show in the wider debate, especially by the No campaign.

I believe the negative fear canpaign by the Better Together campaign is backfiring on them.

I wish both sides actually debated the Pros and Cons of Independence NOT Party Politics.They would do better to actually debate Independance in an open and honest manner and put forward their planned alternative. The Status quo will lose them the referendum IMHO.

The Scottish People are perhaps slowly realising that a Yes vote for Independence IS NOT a vote for the SNP (or The Greens). If there is a Yes vote, THEN people can vote for ANY Party they wish to govern Scotland and they will actually get the government they vote for. They do not get that at present.

As someone has already said, stop debating the minutae.

It's not minutae. Look at what Jim Sillars said about Quantitative Easing on Question Time. He's right. The UK are the debtor and the creditor for a huge part of our £1T deficit and logic would suggest that if that is the case we could write off large chunks of that debt, if we were willing to devalue Sterling on the FX markets.

If Scotland vote for Independence, Scotland won't have that dilemma. Scotland will walk away with it's share of the debt and the Bank Of England will be the creditor with little prospect of any of the debt being written off. How much independence do you REALLY think that will give you?

[oaksoft]

Well you explain it then? How come the SNP believe that they can offer free further education to all EU Nationals EXCEPT the English despite what European Law says

Perhaps they feel they are on strong grounds with the argument that we only charge their students what they charge our students.

Perhaps they feel there is some loophole they can exploit.

Perhaps they've made the whole thing up.

I don't know and I don't care either.

Voting for Independence is nothing to do with voting for the SNP.

[oaksoft]

It's not minutae. Look at what Jim Sillars said about Quantitative Easing on Question Time. He's right. The UK are the debtor and the creditor for a huge part of our £1T deficit and logic would suggest that if that is the case we could write off large chunks of that debt, if we were willing to devalue Sterling on the FX markets.

If Scotland vote for Independence, Scotland won't have that dilemma. Scotland will walk away with it's share of the debt and the Bank Of England will be the creditor with little prospect of any of the debt being written off. How much independence do you REALLY think that will give you?

Here's a wee test for you.

Exactly how many peopl in Scotland or elsewhere in the RUK do you think even understand half the words you've used in your post?

Quantitative Easing?

Debtor and creditor?

Devalue Sterling on the FX markets?

It's not even relevant whether or not you are correct.

The fact is that the ordinary man in the street is simply not interested in listening to stuff like that.

It's a classic case of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

It's the equivalent of being able to pick out all the spelling typos in someone's post but being unable to put together a civil set of words in a coherent manner.

Edited January 28, 2014 by oaksoft

[bluto]

So, no balls available, then?

[RickMcD]

That's a downright lie. Cunto.

Show me the post in which I suggested that - or apologise, if you've got the balls for that.

I know you don't need any help from anyone to sort out Jokefast but I can certainly understand how you feel. As far as I know we're virtually all Scotsmen discussing the referendum yet a bit of low-life introduces the racism card. I never implied that all Yes voters hated the English. However I stand by my statement that a significant percentage of Scottish voters will vote Yes come hell or high water because of their antipathy to the English. Salmonbuddie in a reply to me agreed that these people do exist but thinks the number is minute. I disagree. I have no idea exactly how many but I simply don't believe they have all disappeared and their votes will help the 'officials' of the Yes campaign. In what way is that racist?

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an apology. It's not in his psyche to admit he's ever been wrong. He's a scientist, dontcha know. Of the mad variation. A saddo.

[bluto]

Here's a wee test for you.

Exactly how many peoplE in Scotland or elsewhere in the RUK do you think even understand half the words you've used in your post?

Quantitative Easing?

Debtor and creditor?

Devalue Sterling on the FX markets?

It's not even relevant whether or not you are correct.

The fact is that the ordinary man in the street is simply not interested in listening to stuff like that.

It's a classic case of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

It's the equivalent of being able to pick out all the spelling typos in someone's post but being unable to put together a civil set of words in a coherent manner.

You forgot one of your E's, cretin.

Your posts in this thread are the equivalent of assembling a set of words (give or take a few letters), that add no information and fail to add to what derisory debate there is. It would help if you could take fingers from ears and stop typing the equivalent of nah-nah-nahs.

Now you dismiss Dixon cos he's using BIG, LONG WORDS.... Sigh....

And I thought HE was this Forum's mental Pygmy.....

This thread has been pointless since inception. Any suggested downside to splitting the Union has been ignored and not debated or pilloried (as in the case of Zurich Alan) or twisted as in the case of Rick... while most of us have been able to concede the manifest reasons why a section of the UK population might have reason to consider a split.

I can see how this happens. It's the same in the comments section after online articles on the subject. The only people with real interest in the subject are Nationalists and so that opinion dominates the comments. Any opinion that fails to subscribe to that mainstream must be marginalised.

I have failed to learn from experience and dipped back into the thread, knowing that most mind-sets in it are closed.

My apologies. It frustrates me as much as it does any of you. It wastes everyone's time, including my own.

Fortunately, I'm convinced that the majority of Scots are not keen on the lemming option.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I know you don't need any help from anyone to sort out Jokefast but I can certainly understand how you feel. As far as I know we're virtually all Scotsmen discussing the referendum yet a bit of low-life introduces the racism card. I never implied that all Yes voters hated the English. However I stand by my statement that a significant percentage of Scottish voters will vote Yes come hell or high water because of their antipathy to the English. Salmonbuddie in a reply to me agreed that these people do exist but thinks the number is minute. I disagree. I have no idea exactly how many but I simply don't believe they have all disappeared and their votes will help the 'officials' of the Yes campaign. In what way is that racist?

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an apology. It's not in his psyche to admit he's ever been wrong. He's a scientist, dontcha know. Of the mad variation. A saddo.

A number of unionists on here ( and elsewhere) constantly accuse and equate anyone espousing Scottish independence with the Nazis. Lowlife indeed... Edited January 28, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[bluto]

A number of unionists on here ( and elsewhere) constantly accuse and equate anyone espousing Scottish independence with the Nazis. Lowlife indeed...

Fairy Nuff, tony.

I probably haven't been paying full attention to all the mince on here.

I hadn't noticed that. Certainly haven't seen it as being a constant refrain.

I discount anything Dixon posts, but could you find and quote one of those Unionists posts accusing or equating SNP Independence activists with Nazis?

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

BP have done survives in the outer Clyde which suggests there is large oil fields. The UK government won't let drilling be done because our submarines use this area for going back and forth to their base. One of the first things a Scottish government would do is to move these dangerous over priced subs out of Scotland leaving the way for drilling which could create another oil boom with lots of jobs.

[salmonbuddie]

The other resident loony (Maxi) has been free in his use of it. But you'll have him on ignore.

Oddly enough, one of the autocorrect choices I get when I type "Maxi" is "Nazi."

[salmonbuddie]

For clarity, that was a reply to bluto - "natsi" (© St Sid) is the term used.

[bluto]

The other resident loony (Maxi) has been free in his use of it. But you'll have him on ignore.

Oddly enough, one of the autocorrect choices I get when I type "Maxi" is "Nazi."

True. I do.

So that would probably support what tony says, though he's no sae daft as to take trolls seriously, I would have thought...

I often wonder which alias Sid now deploys...

[pozbaird]

Big oil reserves possibly in the Clyde. We vote for independence, Salmond tells the Royal Navy to do one and get tae' fcuk, and all that lovely oil and associated revenue is achieved by.... British Petroleum.

Hmm. I remain undecided. I genuinely am on the fence, although every time Salmond or Sturgeon open their gobs I side with retaining the union.

[salmonbuddie]

Or Royal Dutch Shell, or Total, or Exxon......makes no odds, poz, it's still Scottish tax income/revenue is the point.

Fekkin autocorrect.....

Edited January 28, 2014 by salmonbuddie

[pozbaird]

Or Royal Dutch Shell, or Total, or Exxon......makes no odds, pox, it's still Scottish tax income/revenue is the point.

Indeed. It's a complex issue, which is why I am currently undecided. I'll have a clearer idea once Dickson and Oaksoft tell me the truth about it all.