The Referendum Thread

[Stuart Dickson]

Indeed.

You don't get logic do you.

You assume that anyone not agreeing with u(kip) must be a nationalist.

Oh do I? That would make me a Nationalist then - and I know that's not true........

[Stuart Dickson]

Proof that the UK Government is working. As I said earlier tonight toughening the stance on fraud is bearing fruit. At one end the crackdown on benefit cheats is yielding returns with record numbers of people in work and unemployment levels falling rapidly - then at the other end we discover that the Coalition Government's crackdown on tax avoidance has brought in a record £23.9Bn in formally lost tax returns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27576626

It's a superb performance by a very good government who have systematically overturned the area's that Labour neglected to deal with, and they've done it in a way that pisses all over the SNP claims about the UK not being a fair society. SInce the coalition government came to power in 2009 we've seen tax cuts despite tough economic conditions, cuts that came from an increase in the Personal Allowance that meant millions of the poorest paid UK workers no longer had to pay Income Tax on their earnings; we've seen Help To Buy which has allowed thousands of hard pressed families to raise the deposit for their first homes - something that has also stimulated much needed growth in the construction sector; and introduced new pension legislation that will allow us all to take our full pension on retirement and allow us to shop for the best value investment we can find.

In contrast the SNP in their 7 years in power have - at all our expense - provided "free" prescriptions to the richest 50% of Scots (the poorest 50% already qualified for free prescriptions post 2007); they've provided - at all our expense "free" university places for tomorrow's Lawyers, Bankers and Politicians whilst neglecting secondary school education provision; they've provided "free" car parking for well paid surgeons, consultants and nurses at NHS Hospitals using money from the Patient Healthcare budget to fund it; they've scrapped bridge toll fees for car users taking money out of the budget for road repairs meaning more car owners face hefty repair bills as cars bounce up and down huge potholes; and they've ensured that the mega rich in Scottish society get a healthy pay out every year by paying them for use of their land for windmills that might generate electricity at the most inefficient rates imaginable, if the wind blows in the right direction. Our Nasti - no typo, I know what i'm doing - government has even managed to set up a tax avoidance scheme of it's own for mega rich companies who are routinely castigated for their poor working conditions just to make sure that they don't have to waste company profits on silly little things like public services. The silly Natsi's have even used your tax money to buy an airport that seldom gets used, presumably to ensure your post referendum's autocratic megalomaniac dictator has somewhere to stick his private jets.

If you want a fairer society it's time you all realised we're Better Together.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[oaksoft]

Also I keep hearing that UKIP are openly racist. Can someone please show me some hard proof of this. Its easy to chuck buzz words around to try ans scare people - but without backing up the claims it means very little. To say the 'entire party' is racist (not a few candidates saying something vulgar!) is a pretty big statement.

Yeah I'm sorry but this is the BNP all over again. I heard these comments all through the 80's and 90's and now I'm hearing it again.

Do you think it's a coincidence that the BNP vote has disappeared at the same time as UKIP's has increased?

You may also have missed the post election interviews of Essex voters who talked about their wish to see "all the foreigners kicked out". There was mention of "England for the English". This is the core of the electorate Farage played into and he won thousands of them to his cause.

You may also have missed Farage say he would feel very uncomfortable if a Romanian family moved in next door to him. You have even have missed the seemingly endless stream of UKIP politicians talking about people "being forced to feel like strangers in their own country".

This is racism Andy - pure and simple. Many of us are old enough to recognise it for what it is which is why we are using phrases like BNP-lite to describe UKIP.

Edited May 27, 2014 by oaksoft

[smcc]

Eh no - it was widely reported that amongst those arrested at the protest was "at least ONE English student". How many English voices can you hear?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w65VhJi9jWU

Stuart, you would argue that that black was white. Not all of the protesters were inside the pub(indeed the few protesters in that clip were outnumbered by the press). Who mentioned arrests? I said it was reported that some of the protesters had either travelled from England or were English students at Edinburgh Uni.

[Maboza]

Proof that the UK Government is working. As I said earlier tonight toughening the stance on fraud is bearing fruit. At one end the crackdown on benefit cheats is yielding returns with record numbers of people in work and unemployment levels falling rapidly - then at the other end we discover that the Coalition Government's crackdown on tax avoidance has brought in a record £23.9Bn in formally lost tax returns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27576626

That's a sizeable amount of cash.

How much was the deficit reduced by?

[oaksoft]

a direct problem in bringing in more people who have access to help from the public purse, i have paid national insurance all my working life and as it stands someone from another country can come in and get help without ever having paid N I.

maybe not free for all immigration,but freedom to move around the EU, the benefit system in the uk is too generous to people who have not paid N I contributions, currently they only need be here for 3 months and be looking for work or working for that period to qualify for assistance, i have paid N I to help provide for my family for 42 years, now the public purse is short of funds and i would say partly because families have come to live here and they have not paid anywhere near that, i dont think thats fair

It beggars belief that any sane person would believe that someone would come over here to live a life on luxury on £70 a week.

Actually it saddens me that this is the level of intelligence some people reach.

[Stuart Dickson]

Stuart, you would argue that that black was white. Not all of the protesters were inside the pub(indeed the few protesters in that clip were outnumbered by the press). Who mentioned arrests? I said it was reported that some of the protesters had either travelled from England or were English students at Edinburgh Uni.

I mentioned arrests because the fact that ONE English student was arrested appears to have been the only verifiable proof that there were English protesters there. You claimed in your initial post that it was widely reported that "MANY" English protesters were there. I see you have now changed that to "SOME".

The video footage from outside the pub is available on You Tube if you want to watch that too. There's not many - well none in fact - English accents in evidence there either, beyond that of Nigel Farage.

Tony's line of defence is better than yours. I can acknowledge that it's perfectly possible that not all of the protesters were Nationalists, but it is hard to imagine them being anything but. After all, as I said last night, why would a unionist want to silence a fellow unionist, especially when this one appears capable of out sneering Alex Salmond.

[Stuart Dickson]

I know, I know. Can I answer that? Please please please.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10849333/Interest-bill-on-UKs-1.27-trillion-debt-to-hit-1bn-a-week.html#disqus_thread

Proof beyond all doubt that the UK government has not been imposing austerity budgets on anyone. Spending has continued to increase as I pointed out several weeks ago immediately after the budget.

You guys are funny. You claim you want a fairer society. I've shown that the coalition government are working towards exactly that. You'd think you'd be supportive of what the Conservatives were doing in cutting tax bills for the lowest paid, providing help to families who are struggling to get together a deposit for their first house, and getting people back into work so they can take more control over their own financial well being. But no, instead you support a party who have been taking from the poor and the needy to give to the rich and who have made uncosted promises about nursery care post independence despite the fact that they've failed to provide this over any of the last seven years.

I guess it just shows how easily you fools have been taken in by the Natsi propaganda machine.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Dig,dig,dig...

[Stuart Dickson]

It beggars belief that any sane person would believe that someone would come over here to live a life on luxury on £70 a week.

Actually it saddens me that this is the level of intelligence some people reach.

The average Romanian wage is approximately £260 per month. They have no free healthcare and if they manage to land a job in the UK the minimum wage here will ensure they are earning a minimum of 400% more than they would be at home. I fully appreciate that things are more expensive here than in Romania but all the same Oaksoft we offer a pretty good standard of living - even to those who won't work.

A few years ago the security guard that was covering the building I was working in was a Malaysian who was here on a student visa. He was actually at University during the day but at night he was the company security guard three days a week. He told me he was earning enough to rent a flat in Lanarkshire, feed and clothe himself, and send money home to his wife and three kids to pay their household bills and to pay for their nanny and their housekeeper.

Life in the UK is actually relatively comfortable even for those who claim to be in poverty. That's why so many immigrants are attracted to the UK - particularly to England.

[Vambo57]

That's a sizeable amount of cash.

How much was the deficit reduced by?

I don't know where that figure came from, cause if you read the article, it says:

" HMRC said that of the total amount it had raised, more than £8bn came from large businesses, £1bn from criminals and £2.7bn from tackling avoidance schemes in courts.

I mentioned arrests because the fact that ONE English student was arrested appears to have been the only verifiable proof that there were English protesters there. You claimed in your initial post that it was widely reported that "MANY" English protesters were there. I see you have now changed that to "SOME".

The video footage from outside the pub is available on You Tube if you want to watch that too. There's not many - well none in fact - English accents in evidence there either, beyond that of Nigel Farage.

Tony's line of defence is better than yours. I can acknowledge that it's perfectly possible that not all of the protesters were Nationalists, but it is hard to imagine them being anything but. After all, as I said last night, why would a unionist want to silence a fellow unionist, especially when this one appears capable of out sneering Alex Salmond.

So if your not a Nationalist then your a Unionist? Away and gies piece!

Depends if the perpetrators toe the party line... more likely to be anti-fascists, which surely tells you something!

Anyway, come September there will be plenty of traditionally Labour, Lib-Dem, and Conservative voters putting their X in the YES box Stu and then we can finally say farewell to you.

[Maboza]

I don't know where that figure came from, cause if you read the article, it says:

" HMRC said that of the total amount it had raised, more than £8bn came from large businesses, £1bn from criminals and £2.7bn from tackling avoidance schemes in courts.

I believe it's what people may refer to as 'smoke and mirrors'.

The actual 'lost' tax raised at £23.9bn wasn't an additional £23.9bn raised by this Tory/Lib government. It was actually at £3.2bn increase on the previous year's 'lost' tax revenue. i.e. this practice is normal practice and raises sizeable sums year after year.

Anyone could be forgiven for thinking from the BBC article's positioning of the story that the Tory/Lib coalition had worked wonders to find this money which is in fact nothing more than the day-to-day job of the Government, HMRC and the courts.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Maboza

[buddiecat]

So where do you stop? Should people who haven't paid any income tax or NI contributions and have lived in this country their entire lives be excluded from any support from the welfare state, or is it simply becuase people have come from overseas, most of whom would be asylum seekers if they have been granted leave to stay and claim support? Economic migrants are not afforded access to the welfare state in the manner which you seem to be referring to.

In any event, I suspect that corrupt bankers and huge multi-national corporations avoiding their tax obligations must be held to be considerably more culpable for any shortage in the public purse than immigrants.

economic migrants come here to work and earn a living,i have no issue about that, but if after 3 months they lose their job or become ill, then they have access to benefits, i know this as part of my job,people who have lived here all their lives and not paid NI or tax have probably come from families who have paid those contributions and paid enough to cover some family members who cant/dont work for whatever reason,that is enough of a strain on the public purse without adding people who have only paid a small amount to cover them and all their family, the corrupt bankers and tax dodgers are a pain of course, unfortunately they and politicians are often one and the same

[Guest TPAFKATS]

You assume that anyone not agreeing with u(kip) must be a nationalist.

Oh do I? That would make me a Nationalist then - and I know that's not true........

The average Romanian wage is approximately £260 per month. They have no free healthcare and if they manage to land a job in the UK the minimum wage here will ensure they are earning a minimum of 400% more than they would be at home. I fully appreciate that things are more expensive here than in Romania but all the same Oaksoft we offer a pretty good standard of living - even to those who won't work.

A few years ago the security guard that was covering the building I was working in was a Malaysian who was here on a student visa. He was actually at University during the day but at night he was the company security guard three days a week. He told me he was earning enough to rent a flat in Lanarkshire, feed and clothe himself, and send money home to his wife and three kids to pay their household bills and to pay for their nanny and their housekeeper.

Life in the UK is actually relatively comfortable even for those who claim to be in poverty. That's why so many immigrants are attracted to the UK - particularly to England.

Are you sure you dont agree with ukip - you're doing a pretty good line in sounding like a bit of a Nigel

[Stuart Dickson]

Are you sure you dont agree with ukip - you're doing a pretty good line in sounding like a bit of a Nigel

Yeah I'm sure. If you look at their policies they want binding local and national referenda at the publics request on major issues. I totally disagree with that. We elect our political representatives during General Elections and By Elections. If we have a strong view on a particular subject we should be able to approach our elected representative to lobby them. Wasting money from the public purse on stupid referenda is just plain stupid.

Ofcourse if any of the Natsi's actually read through their policies they'd find that this isn't the only policy they've got in common with UKIP...

[Guest TPAFKATS]

ukip dont actually have any policies - its all back of a fag packet made up as they go along and subject to change at short notice.

A bit like dicko's "facts"...

[Isabella Duke]

It beggars belief that any sane person would believe that someone would come over here to live a life on luxury on £70 a week.

Actually it saddens me that this is the level of intelligence some people reach.

Indeed.

For a change, I totally agree.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Yeah I'm sure. If you look at their policies they want binding local and national referenda at the publics request on major issues. I totally disagree with that. We elect our political representatives during General Elections and By Elections. If we have a strong view on a particular subject we should be able to approach our elected representative to lobby them. Wasting money from the public purse on stupid referenda is just plain stupid.

Ofcourse if any of the Natsi's actually read through their policies they'd find that this isn't the only policy they've got in common with UKIP...

ukip also like to use this strange term.

[Isabella Duke]

ukip dont actually have any policies - its all back of a fag packet made up as they go along and subject to change at short notice.

Indeed, totally correct.

Yet, in the lead up to a vote on Scottish independence they have won 1 of 6 seats in Scotland...

And some folk would have us believe that a yes vote is likely...

[Isabella Duke]

Ofcourse if any of the Natsi's actually read through their policies they'd find that this isn't the only policy they've got in common with UKIP...

Now, now Stuart.

You are going to hit a raw nerve there highlighting the similarities between UKIP & the SNP...

[Isabella Duke]

economic migrants come here to work and earn a living,i have no issue about that, but if after 3 months they lose their job or become ill, then they have access to benefits, i know this as part of my job,people who have lived here all their lives and not paid NI or tax have probably come from families who have paid those contributions and paid enough to cover some family members who cant/dont work for whatever reason,that is enough of a strain on the public purse without adding people who have only paid a small amount to cover them and all their family, the corrupt bankers and tax dodgers are a pain of course, unfortunately they and politicians are often one and the same

If they are paying national insurance and they become ill then they are entitled to have access to benefits. That is what insurance is all about.

But the fact is that the majority if immigrants are young workers who are out there working, paying tax and doing the jobs that too many lazers fuckers in this country won't do.

I have a mate who runs a recruitment agency. He has an office in Prague and that is his main source of new recruits to come to Scotland to work. He has to go out their continually to try and woo folk to come over to fill the jobs he has.

He says he has never ever been able to find anyone in Scotland - they'd much rather live off benefits.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

If they are paying national insurance and they become ill then they are entitled to have access to benefits. That is what insurance is all about.

But the fact is that the majority if immigrants are young workers who are out there working, paying tax and doing the jobs that too many lazers f**kers in this country won't do.

I have a mate who runs a recruitment agency. He has an office in Prague and that is his main source of new recruits to come to Scotland to work. He has to go out their continually to try and woo folk to come over to fill the jobs he has.

He says he has never ever been able to find anyone in Scotland - they'd much rather live off benefits.

Sounds like an excuse for his sex tourism

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So has the compulsive liar admitted he lied again.

No, however would you believe him if he did...

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Talking of compulsive liars, I see HM Treasury has over egged the costs of Independent Scotland setting up its own depts and agencies. According to Prof Dunleavy at London School of Economics his work has been misrepresented by uk treasury who have over estimated costs by 12 times.

https://twitter.com/PJDunleavy/status/471286121096544256

http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/making_and_breaking_whitehall_departments.pdf

So instead of costing £2.7bn, it would actually be £250m (or less than the cost we currently pay per year for the bbc)

Edited May 27, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[Stuart Dickson]

Talking of compulsive liars, I see HM Treasury has over egged the costs of Independent Scotland setting up its own depts and agencies. According to Prof Dunleavy at London School of Economics his work has been misrepresented by uk treasury who have over estimated costs by 12 times.

https://twitter.com/PJDunleavy/status/471286121096544256

http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/making_and_breaking_whitehall_departments.pdf

So instead of costing £2.7bn, it would actually be £250m (or less than the cost we currently pay per year for the bbc)

Hmm, that's funny cause John Swinney has reportedly told his cabinet colleagues in the Scottish Government that setting up a new Scottish HMRC alone would cost £600m. Anyway regardless of who's figures you, or any one else chooses to believe it appears that the one thing we can all agree on is that the setting up of these new government agencies and public services is going to cost Scottish taxpayers money.

I wonder if we were to put it to a vote how many Scots would prefer to spend an undefined sum of money that could be anything from £250m, to £600m or even £2.7Bn on a new tax office than say would prefer to keep the money in their pocket and not have to watch a Scottish Government squander it for us.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Stuart Dickson