The Referendum Thread

[Reynard]

I recall that the energy scaremongering (or was it lovebombing from Ed Davey?) was dismantled a few pages ago on the thread.

Was it a copy and paste rebuttal from that wee dork in Bath who has managed to extract over 100k from himself so far from soft in the head nationalist clowns?

If so, then, it's no rebuttal never mind taking anything apart.

[salmonbuddie]

Yayyyyyy, Reynard's back!

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Was it a copy and paste rebuttal from that wee dork in Bath who has managed to extract over 100k from himself so far from soft in the head nationalist clowns?

If so, then, it's no rebuttal never mind taking anything apart.

Careful, name calling will get you called a natsi, with no irony...

For info, the analysis came from a group of energy experts across the UK.

You're welcome...

[thepaisleypanda]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/in-your-area/sack-neil-call-asbestos-wards-3593460.

Dear oh dear. And Alex Salmond and all of his SNP MAPs backed this idiot.

And Dicksons link has been "delted!"

Proof possitive that , it,s not worhthy of the internet!!!

[buddiecat]

interesting to note that a survey carried out for the pro-independence "wings over scotland" has polled 100 supporters of each of the premier league scottish teams and st mirren fans voted

NO - 52

YES - 28

DONT KNOW - 20

[salmonbuddie]

I saw that too, complete opposite of the two polls on here. Strange.

[buddiecat]

I saw that too, complete opposite of the two polls on here. Strange.

dont think it's strange, just saints fans who dont come on bawa

[delpierro]

Talking about the referendum and all, if "Yes" wins, will people who have voted "No" be sent to hospitals and camps?

some might be let out of hospitals.

[smcc]

dont think it's strange, just saints fans who dont come on bawa

Exactly; so neither poll means anything!

[BoWSaint]

The lies continue

Apologies to Stuart for another link to pro-independence website (don't read it if you don't want) but this is one of my biggest problems with the NO campaign. It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt again and again that they are using shameful tactics and outright lies to win votes and not promoting their own campaigns strengths.Printing these glossy brochures filled with lies is total scumbaggery tactics. It's a real shame that there will be good people trying to make the right choice being swayed by stuff like this.

[Stuart Dickson]

The lies continue

Apologies to Stuart for another link to pro-independence website (don't read it if you don't want) but this is one of my biggest problems with the NO campaign. It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt again and again that they are using shameful tactics and outright lies to win votes and not promoting their own campaigns strengths.Printing these glossy brochures filled with lies is total scumbaggery tactics. It's a real shame that there will be good people trying to make the right choice being swayed by stuff like this.

Honestly - I don't know why you keep quoting them. Anyway here was todays news

25/5/2014

Danish Foreign Minister, Martin Lidegaard, has today confirmed that a separate Scotland would have to reapply to join the EU, contrary to what the Nationalists have previously claimed.

Martin Lidegaard stated, during an interview on BBC Radio 4's 'The World this Weekend', that there are "strict rules" for joining the EU. He also said that a separate Scotland would have to meet the Copenhagen criteria.

For years the Nationalists asserted that a separate Scotland would be waved into the EU with no questions asked. The First Minister Alex Salmond even claimed he had legal advice during an interview with the BBC to back up this claim. However, after the Scottish Government spent thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money on a court battleto keep it secret, the SNP were eventually forced to admit that the legal advice never existed in the first place.

More recently Alex Salmond was interviewed on Sky and asserted that a separate Scotland would be able to join the European Union within 18 months of leaving the UK. To support this claim the First Minister cited Article 48 of the European Treaty.

The reality, however, is that European leaders have made clear that a separate Scotland would need to apply under Article 49. That means entry negotiations would not be able to start until Scotland had completely separated from the UK.

Additionally, the most recent country to join the EU, Croatia, applied for membership in 2003 but did not formally join until 2013.

WHAT THE EXPERTS SAY

• Jose Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission said EU entry for a separate Scotland would be "difficult, if not impossible"

• Romano Prodi, Former European Commission President: “A newly independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and the treaties would... not apply anymore on its territory."

• Ivan Grdesic, the Croatian ambassador to the UK: “Our experience is that it really is not a negotiation process, you are actually joining a club that already has all the rules and regulations that you have to adopt.”

• Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy “"This is a fact, it's neither a value judgement nor an opinion, it's simply a fact. If part of a country integrated into the European Union leaves that country, then logically it would be outside the European Union, not because I say so, but because that's what the treaties say."

  "[scotland] would have to join the queue [to enter the EU]."

• Prime Minister Rajoy is also reported to have said: “If part of a member state becomes independent, it would be left out of the European Union, and it would be good for citizens (in the EU) and Scots to know that.”

• Spanish Foreign Minister Jose-Manuel Garcia-Margallo: “They have to resolve a mountain of problems. You have to achieve candidate status. You have to negotiate 35 chapters . It has to be ratified by the institutions of the EU. It then has to be ratified by 28 national parliaments.”

Stirling Labour MP Anne McGuire said:

"This is an important intervention and blows out of the water the nationalist suggestion that getting back into the EU would be plain sailing for a separate Scotland. It’s clear that if we leave the UK then we would need to reapply to join the EU, with the favourable terms and conditions we enjoy today as part of the UK being put at risk.

“We now have the Prime Minister of Spain, the Foreign Minister of Spain, the Presidents of the European Council and European Commission, and the Foreign Minister of Denmark all saying we would need to reapply to join the EU if we leave the UK. It simply isn’t credible for Alex Salmond to claim that everybody is wrong and only he is right.

“Instead of telling us everything would be alright on the night, Alex Salmond should come clean about our EU membership if we leave the UK. He can't just wish the difficult questions away. Would we be forced to join the Euro? Would we lose our rebate? And would we have to sign up to the no borders immigration scheme? Scots deserve some honest answers to these key questions.

"As part of the UK we can have the best of both worlds - a strong Scottish Parliament, with the guarantee of more powers, and we can enjoy beneficial terms and conditions in the EU as part of the UK. Only separation puts that at risk.”

[delpierro]

so what you're saying (and others) is that there will be a mass migration of immigrants from Scotland into England and other EU countries, come a Yes Vote.?

[BoWSaint]

So we reapply to join the EU if that is what the people want? What's the problem? Again, the future is unknown. This situation is unprecedented. No-one knows exactly what wil happen with the EU situation unless we vote yes. We have 5 million members who are voting to leave the UK, not leave the EU. I see the Danish dude has made absolutely no indication that we would have any problem reinstating our membership if we did have to reapply. Croatia is not Scotland. Neither are the other states that have tried to get into the EU. Quoting their situation is completely irrelevant.

Or we stick with the UK government who are actively trying to get us to leave the EU. Again, a NO vote does NOT secure EU status. The future is unknown on this issue either way, deal with it!

I can't believe the EU issue is the focus! There are much bigger problems to face.

[Stuart Dickson]

so what you're saying (and others) is that there will be a mass migration of immigrants from Scotland into England and other EU countries, come a Yes Vote.?

Where did anyone say that?

I'm not sure the rest of Europe would want Scottish refugees fleeing from their bankrupt new state.

[Stuart Dickson]

So we reapply to join the EU if that is what the people want? What's the problem? Again, the future is unknown. This situation is unprecedented. No-one knows exactly what wil happen with the EU situation unless we vote yes. We have 5 million members who are voting to leave the UK, not leave the EU. I see the Danish dude has made absolutely no indication that we would have any problem reinstating our membership if we did have to reapply. Croatia is not Scotland. Neither are the other states that have tried to get into the EU. Quoting their situation is completely irrelevant.

Or we stick with the UK government who are actively trying to get us to leave the EU. Again, a NO vote does NOT secure EU status. The future is unknown on this issue either way, deal with it!

I can't believe the EU issue is the focus! There are much bigger problems to face.

The SNP made it the focus or did you miss that.

I'm actually with you on this one. I personally felt the SNP missed a trick when they went down this route. See to me Independence means going it alone, but Salmond, the SNP, and the whole of the Yes Campaign insisted that Independence meant leaving one political union - the UK - whilst trying desperately to hang onto another. I can only really assume the reason for that was that Salmond backed himself into a corner by first insisting that an Independent Scotland would adopt the Euro as our currency, and when that collapsed and popularity for that idea really plummeted he decided we'd use Sterling letting the Rest of the UK set interest rates, as it does now, rather than setting our own to meet our own market needs.

Look at the situation out there regarding home prices. Massive concern in London because house prices are going through the roof again, whilst in Scotland prices are stagnant at best and still falling in reality. The Bank Of England is doing a balancing act between stopping a housing bubble in London, and causing severe financial hardship around the rest of the country by raising interest rates. Salmond could have won a watch here had Scotland being using it's own currency. He'd have been able to point out that we'd be able to set interest rates independently of everyone else to suit our housing problems. Instead he's once again backed the wrong horse and the Yes Campaign has wholeheartedly backed his shit from start to finish despite the obvious calamitous outcome. Now we just have to hope that the Bank Of England can come up with some clever way of holding back the London market whilst continuing to put money into the market to help grow house prices elsewhere in the UK and we're stuck with that regardless of how we all vote in September cause that's what the lunatics who want to take over the asylum are selling us.

Anyway to get back to what we're doing here - you posted a link that claimed to show dishonesty in the Better Together campaign, I've simply done the same, only I've managed to show that the dishonesty in the Yes Campaign goes right to the top on one of the main key promises that the Yes Campaign chose to make - that Scotland would retain full EU Membership rights along with all the same vetoes that the UK currently enjoys. Salmond was lying, the SNP were lying and the Yes Campaign has been lying all along. I won't go back over the old pension ground beyond saying that if you believe the shit on that website about affordability, can you explain why Alex Salmond also says we need so many immigrants to come to Scotland to work so that they can fund our pensioners in their retirement. All that money has to come from somewhere you know......

Edited May 25, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[salmonbuddie]

If you can't see the difference between lying and being mistaken then there's no hope for you......or you're lying.

With the Euro results now in it's obvious where the UK is going, lurching even further to the right as BNP Lite gains swathes of votes in rUK. It's even infected part of Scotland, we've given them a seat, too, something I thought I'd never see in my lifetime. Hopefully this is the wake up call that the people of Scotland need, do we really want those people running our country?

[Stuart Dickson]

The SNP made it the focus or did you miss that.

I'm actually with you on this one. I personally felt the SNP missed a trick when they went down this route. See to me Independence means going it alone, but Salmond, the SNP, and the whole of the Yes Campaign insisted that Independence meant leaving one political union - the UK - whilst trying desperately to hang onto another. I can only really assume the reason for that was that Salmond backed himself into a corner by first insisting that an Independent Scotland would adopt the Euro as our currency, and when that collapsed and popularity for that idea really plummeted he decided we'd use Sterling letting the Rest of the UK set interest rates, as it does now, rather than setting our own to meet our own market needs.

Look at the situation out there regarding home prices. Massive concern in London because house prices are going through the roof again, whilst in Scotland prices are stagnant at best and still falling in reality. The Bank Of England is doing a balancing act between stopping a housing bubble in London, and causing severe financial hardship around the rest of the country by raising interest rates. Salmond could have won a watch here had Scotland being using it's own currency. He'd have been able to point out that we'd be able to set interest rates independently of everyone else to suit our housing problems. Instead he's once again backed the wrong horse and the Yes Campaign has wholeheartedly backed his shit from start to finish despite the obvious calamitous outcome. Now we just have to hope that the Bank Of England can come up with some clever way of holding back the London market whilst continuing to put money into the market to help grow house prices elsewhere in the UK and we're stuck with that regardless of how we all vote in September cause that's what the lunatics who want to take over the asylum are selling us.

Anyway to get back to what we're doing here - you posted a link that claimed to show dishonesty in the Better Together campaign, I've simply done the same, only I've managed to show that the dishonesty in the Yes Campaign goes right to the top on one of the main key promises that the Yes Campaign chose to make - that Scotland would retain full EU Membership rights along with all the same vetoes that the UK currently enjoys. Salmond was lying, the SNP were lying and the Yes Campaign has been lying all along. I won't go back over the old pension ground beyond saying that if you believe the shit on that website about affordability, can you explain why Alex Salmond also says we need so many immigrants to come to Scotland to work so that they can fund our pensioners in their retirement. All that money has to come from somewhere you know......

If you can't see the difference between lying and being mistaken then there's no hope for you......or you're lying.

With the Euro results now in it's obvious where the UK is going, lurching even further to the right as BNP Lite gains swathes of votes in rUK. It's even infected part of Scotland, we've given them a seat, too, something I thought I'd never see in my lifetime. Hopefully this is the wake up call that the people of Scotland need, do we really want those people running our country?

Oh so Salmond was "mistaken" about EU Membership now Would I want UKIP running my country? No less than Id want the SNP running my country. SNP supporters are as xenophobic as UKIP ones are racisr

[salmonbuddie]

Bollocks.

[oaksoft]

Where did anyone say that?

I'm not sure the rest of Europe would want Scottish refugees fleeing from their bankrupt new state.

Oh so Salmond was "mistaken" about EU Membership now Would I want UKIP running my country? No less than Id want the SNP running my country. SNP supporters are as xenophobic as UKIP ones are racisr

Bollocks.

In fairness salmonbuddie you're getting what you ask for by continuing to engage with him.

He's not interested in discussing things properly. He's been on a 187 page wind up.

He doesn't believe any of this stuff he's spouting but he's getting a huge daily thrill from watching you dangle from the hook.

[Isabella Duke]

The BBC are predicting that the Conservatives and UKIP will win a seat each out of the 6 available seats in Scotland.

Good to see that my voting Conservative contributed to that.

Scotland isn't quote the left wing socialist 'utopia' that some would like to think...

[Isabella Duke]

In fairness salmonbuddie you're getting what you ask for by continuing to engage with him.

He's not interested in discussing things properly. He's been on a 187 page wind up.

He doesn't believe any of this stuff he's spouting but he's getting a huge daily thrill from watching you dangle from the hook.

You are now referring to yourself in your own posts?

[Happy Buddie]

I'm sure the EU would be happy to maintain the number of countries in its sawy, as Englandshire and a few others try to negotiate their way out ( or just leave). I can see a lot of plc.s moving their headquarters north in order to have a foothold in Europe as the Tories, Labour etc., become political chameleons to keep saets on the gravy train that is a politician's lot.

[Isabella Duke]

I'm sure the EU would be happy to maintain the number of countries in its sawy, as Englandshire and a few others try to negotiate their way out ( or just leave). I can see a lot of plc.s moving their headquarters north in order to have a foothold in Europe as the Tories, Labour etc., become political chameleons to keep saets on the gravy train that is a politician's lot.

You mean like the Scottish Parliament political gravy train? £ millions of public money wasted on a new building and MSPs that we don't need?

Your post is irrelevant anyway as Scotland will vote no.

It must be a right kick in the guts to the Yes campaign that the Tories & UKIP may win as many European seats in Scotland as the SNP! :

NO!

Edited May 26, 2014 by Isabella Duke

[Drew]

You mean like the Scottish Parliament political gravy train? £ millions of public money wasted on a new building and MSPs that we don't need?

Your post is irrelevant anyway as Scotland will vote no.

It must be a right kick in the guts to the Yes campaign that the Tories & UKIP may win as many European seats in Scotland as the SNP! :

NO!

No.

I think it will be a boon to the YES campaign, Andy.

Many people who are swithering will find the rise of UKIP distinctly distasteful, and this will push them towards voting YES in order to distance themselves and Scotland from the right-wing reactionary pish that appears to be gathering an unsavoury head of steam in the UK and other parts of Europe.

Watch this space....

[Drew]

Talking of UKIP, did anyone else hear the interview on Radio Shortbread this morning with Gary Robertson talking to the UKIP member who looks likely to have won a Scottish seat in the European Parliament? It was about 8.40am, and I was actually laughing out loud as I listened in the car on my way to work.

It went something like this (seriously!):

GR: So what do you intend to do to represent Scotland in the European Parliament?

UKIP chap: Well, er, you know....um....look to get rid of a lot these daft regulations that affect Scottish businesses and things like that

GR: And what type of regulations are you referring to?

UKIP chap: Well, um....you know, all those silly regulations....

GR: Can you be more specific?

UKIP chap: Er, well, there are lots of them, aren't there....you know the type of thing.

GR: Yes, but I am asking you to refer specifically to one such regulation....

UKIP chap: Well, um, off the top of my head? Er....well, those health and safety rules....you know...?

GR: Can you refer to one in particular?

UKIP chap: Well, er, its early on a Monday morning, and I didn't get much sleep....

GR: So you see, this is the issue, isn't it? UKIP operates on a platform based on attacking the EU, but loses credibility when it comes to making specific challenges, and is merely a protest party and little else. Isn't that correct?

UKIP chap: well....no, not at all, um....

If you get a chance to listen to this on the iPlayer or some such, I would thoroughly recommend it. It was genuinely priceless.

It was utterly preposterous, but what is more preposterous still is that people actually vote for these buffoons, and, moreover, that the established parties are losing ground to them. Staggering, really.

ETA: audio here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-27575199

(I'm not sure if this covers the whole interview as my connection just crashed, but you get the idea).

Edited May 26, 2014 by Drew