The Referendum Thread

[smcc]

I agree with everything you say. The Union isn't perfect but it serves us all fairly well and I genuinely believe we are better together. Back in the early days of this forum I posted about the underlying selfishness demonstrated by the Yes campaign and of course the 'Right Up England' attitude which is widely prevalent. To their credit the Yes posters said little, recognising that their movement is motivated in part by greed. The devolution Scotland has (as has Northern Ireland to a lesser degree) is the envy of many parts of England and I'm sure the movement for a lot more devolution to regions in England will grow, rightly so, and it will come about. Like you I don't want to see Scotland turn it's back on fellow Britons. Better together.

If only!

I have seen nothing to suggest that Westmonster(keyboard slip, but apposite) is inclined to give up any control, and I seem to remember that, when John Prescott offered greater autonomy to English regions, he was given a resounding "No" by the regions consulted.

[RickMcD]

If only!

I have seen nothing to suggest that Westmonster(keyboard slip, but apposite) is inclined to give up any control, and I seem to remember that, when John Prescott offered greater autonomy to English regions, he was given a resounding "No" by the regions consulted.

Well. I've no idea how Prescott got on (allegedly left leg first) but there is a lot more interest from some regions in having more autonomy. It's in the press often enough. Remember.too,the people of Scotland ad nauseam have rejected nationalism but it hasn't stopped minorities pushing. It's called democracy. Or if you like in some ways the West Lothian question.

[RickMcD]

IMO the best chance for devolution for English regions is if there is a Yes vote in Scotland. Without that "kick up the backside" Westminster and the "political elite" will not change. Just my opinion, though.

Differing opinions indeed. You and SMCC are 100% Yes men, but whereas you say the political elite won't budge SMCC says the regions themselves threw devolution back at the government. To follow your argument to its logical conclusion, does that mean the whole of England could be dismembered and re-emerge as five or six small countries? I jest. It'll be academic anyway after next month.

[TopCat]

New Survation poll out today:

Yes 40 (-1)

No 46 (0)

Even among yes friendly pollsters like Survation and Panelbase, the separatists are losing ground.

Great news for our union

[BoWSaint]

Have read posts for many months... many passionate. .. many abusive. After consideration I still feel a NO vote is the best vote to help Scotland and the rest of the UK move forward together.

I have always felt that devolved power throughout the whole of the UNITED Kingdom would give us a much stronger position within Scotland and in world negotiations.

I don't see the benefits of a YES vote to the proposal on the table, as we will be doing it to seek independence from Westminster and yet by default give more power over our government to Brussels!

An independent Scotland may well make me richer... but personally, I do not want to be richer at the expense of a pensioner in Newcastle; a working family man in Yorkshire; a disabled person in Manchester... or anyone else for that matter. Lets work together to spread the wealth... and lets not be sidetracked by Nationalism that promises much but will come at a cost... if not to us... to others just like us!

The REAL campaign should be to shift the balance of power from Westminster and to give all Local Authority regions more devolved power.

The spread of wealth is one of the growing problems with the current UK. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. In fact, spreading the wealth more evenly is one of the main reasons I think we should support a YES vote as I don't think it can improve under the current regime (it's been getting worse for 30 years).

Here's a video about it....albeit a rather patronizing one!

Spread of wealth in the UK

[TopCat]

Babcock say "no"...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28624870

Is there any major employers backing independence?

[Stuart Dickson]

I don't understand why so many people on here are so desperate to see the cost of government increased with more and more devolved parliaments and powers.

Look at the figures, prior to 1999 in the UK we had 659 MP's running the whole of the UK - population 59.1m - 1 representative per 89,681

Since devolution we now employ

650 MP's in the House of Commons - population 61m - 1 representative per 93846 people

129 MSP's in the Scottish Parliament - population 5.295m - 1 representative per 41,007 people

60 AM's in the Welsh Assembly - population 3.06m - 1 representative per 51,000 people

108 MLA's in the Nothern Ireland Assembly - population 1.81m - 1 representative per 16,768 people

So devolution has increased the number of full time politicians - all generally despised by the taxpayer - by an incredible 43%. We've also spent a massive £414m on a new building for the Scottish Parliament, £67m on the Senedd, and then there's the cost of Assembly members wages, their expenses, staff, general bills, maintenance costs etc, etc. Bonkers stuff. Had that money been spent on new schools and hospitals perhaps we wouldn't have needed to have privatised state schooling and the NHS through the PFI and Futures Fund schemes.

In 1999 I knew who to contact if I had a political issue. My local MP would have been my only stop. Today if I go to see my local MP - Frank Roy - I may get passed over to my Constituency MSP instead - John Pentland. Now being hypothetical for a moment lets say I raised a local issue that had support throughout Wishaw - lets say through the kids football team - and I spoke to John Pentalnd about it and he agreed to support me he may chose to raise my issue in the Scottish Parliament. He may even raise a motion for consideration but because of the absurd nature of the Scottish Parliament electoral system I'm also represented by Siobhan McMahon, Mark Griffin, Margaret McCulloch, Richard Lyle, John Wilson, Claire Adamson, and Margaret Mitchell all of whom will vote along party lines because they got their seats not through people in the local area voting for them, but from the list system. So no matter how much my constituency MSP might want to help me he may be powerless to do anything simply because other MSP's "representing" my area are following party lines.

I don't want more devolution. I don't want a Scottish Parliament. I want to go back to the system where we had 1 politician to every 93,846 people and I want to see my tax money being put to far better use than to fund talking shops all around the country.

[Stuart Dickson]

The spread of wealth is one of the growing problems with the current UK. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. In fact, spreading the wealth more evenly is one of the main reasons I think we should support a YES vote as I don't think it can improve under the current regime (it's been getting worse for 30 years).

Here's a video about it....albeit a rather patronizing one!

Spread of wealth in the UK

The rich may well be getting richer but the number of rich people has increased, and at the same time those classed as "poor" are clearly richer and better off than at any other time in history. Just have a look at the historical programmes on social living conditions like the brilliant BBC series "Secret History of our Streets", especially the programme that featured Glasgow's Duke Street. The UK really is a wealthy place and a land of great opportunity. There's not many families of 6 living in a room and kitchen with no bathroom these days in the UK.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

I don't understand why so many people on here are so desperate to see the cost of government increased with more and more devolved parliaments and powers.

Look at the figures, prior to 1999 in the UK we had 659 MP's running the whole of the UK - population 59.1m - 1 representative per 89,681

Since devolution we now employ

650 MP's in the House of Commons - population 61m - 1 representative per 93846 people

129 MSP's in the Scottish Parliament - population 5.295m - 1 representative per 41,007 people

60 AM's in the Welsh Assembly - population 3.06m - 1 representative per 51,000 people

108 MLA's in the Nothern Ireland Assembly - population 1.81m - 1 representative per 16,768 people

So devolution has increased the number of full time politicians - all generally despised by the taxpayer - by an incredible 43%. We've also spent a massive £414m on a new building for the Scottish Parliament, £67m on the Senedd, and then there's the cost of Assembly members wages, their expenses, staff, general bills, maintenance costs etc, etc. Bonkers stuff. Had that money been spent on new schools and hospitals perhaps we wouldn't have needed to have privatised state schooling and the NHS through the PFI and Futures Fund schemes.

In 1999 I knew who to contact if I had a political issue. My local MP would have been my only stop. Today if I go to see my local MP - Frank Roy - I may get passed over to my Constituency MSP instead - John Pentland. Now being hypothetical for a moment lets say I raised a local issue that had support throughout Wishaw - lets say through the kids football team - and I spoke to John Pentalnd about it and he agreed to support me he may chose to raise my issue in the Scottish Parliament. He may even raise a motion for consideration but because of the absurd nature of the Scottish Parliament electoral system I'm also represented by Siobhan McMahon, Mark Griffin, Margaret McCulloch, Richard Lyle, John Wilson, Claire Adamson, and Margaret Mitchell all of whom will vote along party lines because they got their seats not through people in the local area voting for them, but from the list system. So no matter how much my constituency MSP might want to help me he may be powerless to do anything simply because other MSP's "representing" my area are following party lines.

I don't want more devolution. I don't want a Scottish Parliament. I want to go back to the system where we had 1 politician to every 93,846 people and I want to see my tax money being put to far better use than to fund talking shops all around the country.

Oh FFS more pish

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Typical Natsi - always resorting to abusive name calling.

Irony alert!!!

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Oh FFS more pish

Not necessarily IOBS.

Assuming that Thicko has his numbers right (I know its a long shot), by voting YES the taxpayers of Scotland no longer have to contribute to the employment of

650 MP's in the House of Commons

60 AM's in the Welsh Assembly

108 MLA's in the Nothern Ireland Assembly

and dont forget the House of Lords

[Stuart Dickson]

Not necessarily IOBS.

Assuming that Thicko has his numbers right (I know its a long shot), by voting YES the taxpayers of Scotland no longer have to contribute to the employment of

650 MP's in the House of Commons

60 AM's in the Welsh Assembly

108 MLA's in the Nothern Ireland Assembly

and dont forget the House of Lords

Yet the House of Commons is cheaper per head of population. As I've shown 1 MP represents 93,845 people.

In Scotland we have 1 MSP per 41,007 people - and because of the ridiculous electoral system we've chosen to use only 73 are elected to represent their constituency, 54 are nominated and put in position by their political party leaders (in essence politicians who are paid to comply with their political party leader and not their electorate - the very essence of a dictatorship), and currently 2 MSP's represent no-one but themselves. Is it any wonder that around 2 out of 5 Scots don't feel they are being adequately represented by our politicians?

And you can forget your pish about the House of Lords cause only a select few, who hold specialist positions, are paid any kind of salary

Edited August 3, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

Another interesting juxtaposition of the Natsi has been on taxation. They claim we need decisions to be made by local politicians and the power to collect and spend our own taxes, but without any irony at the same time they prohibit elected councillors within Scottish local authority wards from controlling their own council tax rates. Ofcourse it's not the only stark contradiction in their supposed ideology but it's one that's not often mentioned

[Guest TPAFKATS]

More inaccuracies from our resident Billy Liar!

[Stuart Dickson]

Of course not. Are you crazy? It will be seven, definitely seven ... or maybe eight, yes eight, that's what it will be ... or possibly nine or ten ...

....and if Scotland get Independence how many regional assemblies will the Natsi's set up around the country so that local people can have a say? Or does devolution and independence stop in Edinburgh? Most people in Livingston don't have much in common with those in Edinburgh, never mind Lanarkshire or Glasgow. Surely after independence it would only be a matter of time before Scotland breaks up into tiny little San Marino sized states

Edited August 3, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

Really? According to you earlier Scots had lots in common with the English and little in common with the Germans etc. Now you are saying that Scots have little in common with Scots? You really are full of shit Dorothy.

That's a really poor attempt at deflection. After all it's not me that is advocating the breaking up of a political union that has not only served us all well for the last 300 years, it's the political union that has made us ALL wealthy. I'm saying that we are sufficiently similar that we can be ruled by 650 politicians, each representing just over 90,000 of us in a building in London without having to increase the number of politicians on the taxpayers payroll by just over 40% to give us some kind of kiddy on power in an expensively built and maintained building that looks like a replica of a Guy Fawkes night bonfire.

Look at all the Yes Campaign rhetoric. We're told that Scots have a different political ideology to England. We're told we wouldn't have got involved in the wars that the English (Blair, Brown, Reid, et al) dragged us into. We're told that Scottish politicians wouldn't have squandered the money raised from North Sea Oil (Brown and Darling), that we'd have created an Oil Fund - if it wasn't for the English. We're told Scots didn't vote for Margaret Thatcher (despite more Scots voting for her than have ever voted SNP), for the Right to Buy our Council homes (despite the fact that 504,000 Scots bought their Council homes), and that Scots are against privatisation of the NHS and that the only reason we've had to suffer all of these things is the nasty English (when the NHS in Scotland is completely devolved and we've seen all of our new build hospitals coming from private finance). We're told that Scots didn't play any part in the recent banking crisis (despite RBS and HBOS being the two major banks that needed a bail out). We're told that the collapse of the Royal Bank of Scotland, the Dunfermline Building Society and the Bank of Scotland was all the fault of the Bank of England and the English government (despite being run completely by Scots from Scottish HQ's where Scottish Directors and Chief Executives set the strategy that led to their banks collapse). We're told that the horrid English closed all our shipbuilding yards despite their unquenchable thirst for war which has meant that the UK government has been the sole customer of the major Scottish shipbuilding yards that have been kept open over the last 20 years. Some Scots would even have you believe that Scotland played no part in the slave trade and that all of that too is down to the English despite the evidence all down the River Clyde.

In reality of course the rhetoric is all pish. We've been in it together for 307 years and we are very much the one and the same people and without a doubt one of the most common things we share is that we all just love to blame each other for all our shite decisions and that won't stop post independence. If Scots were ever stupid enough to vote Yes the recriminations would start on the 19th of September when Glasgow would be blaming those Fettes College educated toffs in Edinburgh for every bad decision being made and where those in the Shetlands and in Aberdeen will watch the new Scottish Government heavily reliant on Oil prices fail to create an Oil Wealth fund and will start claiming that they are subsidising the rest of Scotland and that as such they deserve a larger proportion of tax payers money be spent in their major towns and cities.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

FFS Dorothy every post is drawn out pish are you are lost in space with too much time on your hands. Don't know about anyone else , when I see how looooooooooong the post you write is it just puts you off reading it after a few lines.

PS How do you find the ignore button.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Isle Of Bute Saint

[StanleySaint]

Really people, some of you need to take a step back and give your heads a shake befroe continuing with the content of this thread.

[northendsaint]

....and if Scotland get Independence how many regional assemblies will the Natsi's set up around the country so that local people can have a say? Or does devolution and independence stop in Edinburgh? Most people in Livingston don't have much in common with those in Edinburgh, never mind Lanarkshire or Glasgow. Surely after independence it would only be a matter of time before Scotland breaks up into tiny little San Marino sized states

Using that term natsi again Stuart.I really do despair for you.

[thomsons dropped it]

That's a really poor attempt at deflection. After all it's not me that is advocating the breaking up of a political union that has not only served us all well for the last 300 years, it's the political union that has made us ALL wealthy. I'm saying that we are sufficiently similar that we can be ruled by 650 politicians, each representing just over 90,000 of us in a building in London without having to increase the number of politicians on the taxpayers payroll by just over 40% to give us some kind of kiddy on power in an expensively built and maintained building that looks like a replica of a Guy Fawkes night bonfire.

Look at all the Yes Campaign rhetoric. We're told that Scots have a different political ideology to England. We're told we wouldn't have got involved in the wars that the English (Blair, Brown, Reid, et al) dragged us into. We're told that Scottish politicians wouldn't have squandered the money raised from North Sea Oil (Brown and Darling), that we'd have created an Oil Fund - if it wasn't for the English. We're told Scots didn't vote for Margaret Thatcher (despite more Scots voting for her than have ever voted SNP), for the Right to Buy our Council homes (despite the fact that 504,000 Scots bought their Council homes), and that Scots are against privatisation of the NHS and that the only reason we've had to suffer all of these things is the nasty English (when the NHS in Scotland is completely devolved and we've seen all of our new build hospitals coming from private finance). We're told that Scots didn't play any part in the recent banking crisis (despite RBS and HBOS being the two major banks that needed a bail out). We're told that the collapse of the Royal Bank of Scotland, the Dunfermline Building Society and the Bank of Scotland was all the fault of the Bank of England and the English government (despite being run completely by Scots from Scottish HQ's where Scottish Directors and Chief Executives set the strategy that led to their banks collapse). We're told that the horrid English closed all our shipbuilding yards despite their unquenchable thirst for war which has meant that the UK government has been the sole customer of the major Scottish shipbuilding yards that have been kept open over the last 20 years. Some Scots would even have you believe that Scotland played no part in the slave trade and that all of that too is down to the English despite the evidence all down the River Clyde.

In reality of course the rhetoric is all pish. We've been in it together for 307 years and we are very much the one and the same people and without a doubt one of the most common things we share is that we all just love to blame each other for all our shite decisions and that won't stop post independence. If Scots were ever stupid enough to vote Yes the recriminations would start on the 19th of September when Glasgow would be blaming those Fettes College educated toffs in Edinburgh for every bad decision being made and where those in the Shetlands and in Aberdeen will watch the new Scottish Government heavily reliant on Oil prices fail to create an Oil Wealth fund and will start claiming that they are subsidising the rest of Scotland and that as such they deserve a larger proportion of tax payers money be spent in their major towns and cities.

Stuart, the Shelties have been whining for years that they would be better off without the "Mainland" holding them back. In fact many Shelties feel that they are closer to Norway than the aforesaid Mainland.They seem to have no outward signs of using any revenues gathered over the years. Some of the Officials who run things there know no bounds to their stupidity/greed. They hiked landing prices years ago for oil related flights at Sumburgh ,(up until recently the place looked the same as I first saw it 35 years ago)..........Oil companies simply moved up to Scatsta and reopened the Airport there.With the current upsurge in the industry there is investment now but therwise it would have been left to rot through their own fault. Over in Orkney , the Refinery doubled refining costs and lost a shitload of business by doing so.From what I hear from the folk from both Island communities,but more so Shelties,they are just waiting for the result in September to go the way they want to mount their own campaigns.I work with a fair few Shelties offshore and they seem up for their own Referendum.

[Sonny]

And you can forget your pish about the House of Lords cause only a select few, who hold specialist positions, are paid any kind of salary

House of Lords: nearly 800 members who claim £300 per day for turning up (plus travel and staff expenses). None elected. 92 are there by birthright as herdeditary peers. 26 are representatives of the Church of England. Prison is no barrier to retaining your seat (including murder - treason is the only exception).

Numbers rocket over last few years with each Peer able to earn £114,000 pa (2013). Thiose working as 'special advisors' can earn more. .... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2530171/David-Cameron-fire-cost-running-House-Lords-leaps-42m.html

Annual running cost was £87 million in 2013 which was a decrease of £1.2 billion the previous year. http://www.parliament.uk/documents/lords-information-office/2013/house-of-lords-annual-report-2012-13.pdf

'Most turn up to claim expenses' by Conservative MP Lord Hanningfield. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25411182

Democracy my arse.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Stuart's made some good points in his past couple of posts and I'm glad he made the point about the possibility of the Islands wanting out of an Independent Scotland. When the news went up there earlier this year the majority interviewed said that they felt the islands could go it alone if they were given the opportunity. I think an Independent Scotland would be enough for them to say "we're out of here and we're keeping the oil for yourselves thanks very much". I actually got the impression that Alex Salmond and his regime were just as unpopular up in the islands as down south.

It's funny how watching a news programme of a few people can suck some in to believing some of the Islands want Independence from and independent Scotland.

Shetland would be no surprise at it's couture is to this day very close to Norway even to the point butcher shops sell a lot of what Noggies eat. Orkney is very much rooted to Scotland. Having just spent a holiday up in Harris , Uist , Barra where I found the independence debate very much a part of everyday conversation. Most of what I heard is very much pro YES.

[Stuart Dickson]

House of Lords: nearly 800 members who claim £300 per day for turning up (plus travel and staff expenses). None elected. 92 are there by birthright as herdeditary peers. 26 are representatives of the Church of England. Prison is no barrier to retaining your seat (including murder - treason is the only exception).

Numbers rocket over last few years with each Peer able to earn £114,000 pa (2013). Thiose working as 'special advisors' can earn more. .... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2530171/David-Cameron-fire-cost-running-House-Lords-leaps-42m.html

Annual running cost was £87 million in 2013 which was a decrease of £1.2 billion the previous year. http://www.parliament.uk/documents/lords-information-office/2013/house-of-lords-annual-report-2012-13.pdf

'Most turn up to claim expenses' by Conservative MP Lord Hanningfield. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25411182

Democracy my arse.

Did you read the article? In there David Steele says that he did a 12 hour shift at the House of Lords and didn't get paid a penny because he didn't get to the chamber before it had risen. He won't have got any expenses for that shift at all. Not even the money to cover his travel or his accommodation but you didn't quote that at all, preferring instead to use the "extreme" example that the Daily Mail has presented here.

Compare that to the £46,000 expenses bill presented to the Scottish Parliament by Liam McArthur MSP or Bill Walker - now in jail but formerly MSP for Dunfermline - who despite living in Alloa within easy commuting distance of the Scottish Parliament, would regularly claim £100 per night for hotel accommodation. The Scottish Parliament costs the taxpayer £72m per year in 2010 and that was before the annual repair bill for Holyrood had hit the £13m per annum level we're at now. Ofcourse as you've pointed out there are 800 Lords, and only 160 MSP's.

BTW I'm really impressed with the cost cutting at the House of Lords. To go from £1.2Bn to just £87m in one year would be incredible if it were true. Sadly it's not though. Reading the report it was just a reduction from £102m to £87m.....actually why am I saying "just" it's still a f**king huge reduction.

[Stuart Dickson]

It's funny how watching a news programme of a few people can suck some in to believing some of the Islands want Independence from and independent Scotland.

Shetland would be no surprise at it's couture is to this day very close to Norway even to the point butcher shops sell a lot of what Noggies eat. Orkney is very much rooted to Scotland. Having just spent a holiday up in Harris , Uist , Barra where I found the independence debate very much a part of everyday conversation. Most of what I heard is very much pro YES.

Pro Yes you say? Yet they returned Lib Democrat Alastair Carmichael to Westminster with a massive 51.3% majority in 2010. That's one hell of a swing especially when the SNP only managed 2042 votes, just 800 more than UKIP. And Shetland, Orkney and Western Island residents lodged a petition with the Scottish Government on the 24th of March 2014 for their own independence referendum to be held on the 25th of September 2014 so they could vote on whether they want to remain part of an Independent Scotland or to have their own Independence.

[Phil McCracken]

Barclay's was by far the biggest bailout of a British bank - not HBOS or RBS.

Is that true?

I thought that Barclays didn't receive any bailout money from the UK government?