Drew Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 fair post.......... Trouble spot warning............ too much fence sitting might just get you a splinter somewhere a wee tad sair. No fence sitting to report here. See my earlier posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) £55k is their basic wage. Working Sunday nights will increase their basic wage substantially. Their excellent wage has nothing to do with working Sundays. Can you prove this, I couldn't see anything in Herald Online to support this - that £55k is their basic wage and doesn't include allowances for shift work, working on Public Holidays when scheduled to do so, bonuses (which are to be withdrawn under the new management proposals), and even overtime (they may be contracted to over 39 hours per week) plus unscheduled overtime to cover absences?* It seems to me this is part of company spin to try and reduce sympathy for the workers. Phrases like pay freezes and pension cuts are always dramatic. But what about the detail? Apparently, a Grangemouth operator is on £55,000 basic per year plus shift allowance. I imagine their pension is also very generous. That sort of salary is upper management in most walks of life and freezing it would be perfectly legitimate, indeed encouraged, especially in hard times. I gave no sympathy at all for someone earning £55k being told their pay is being frozen. Except it's gone beyond their pay being frozen and it seems their pension will soon be less generous. These changes were detailed in letters sent to staff at the end of last week. They include freezing the basic salary and offering no bonuses until at least the end of 2016. The shift allowance would also be reduced and pensions transferred from a final salary to a defined benefits scheme. It seems to me it's the part in red that bothers you - blue collar workers getting a decent wage. Like I've said elsewhere they didn't get it without struggling with the management over years, perhaps decades, and some of the barely repressed glee that they will be forced to take a drop in their standard of living is unpleasant. ************************************* Workers being contracted to over 39 hours per week when unemployment is so high is another issue. Edited October 24, 2013 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Two quotes lifted from today's Herald Online article The union said around 680 of the site's 1,370-strong workforce had rejected the company's proposals, which include a pay freeze for 2014-16, removal of a bonus up to 2016, a reduced shift allowance and ending of the final salary pension scheme. The outcome of the employee vote on the company's survival plan was a 50/50 split. "Within this, almost all of the administrative staff voted for the company's plan but a large majority of shop floor employees voted to reject it. It seems those with least to lose are keenest to support the plans - if it wasn't so serious it'd be funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingscot Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Sorry, hoping wont pay the mortgage. While, as Drew has said, unions have been responsible for improving terms and conditions for many people the current T&C's are not sustainable so, like many others on the country, something has to give. Lets not forget that approximately 6 times the number of people that would lose a job in this plant would also lose theirs or suffer serious consequences. Many people have seen their standard of living drop in the last 4 or 5 years with wage freezes, less hours etc but still have a job. Sorry, something of less I'd better than all of nothing. No it doesn't pay the bills but in the end do we want a race to the bottom where we lose all our job benefits and get pay cut and should just be happy to have a job? In 2 years down the line what happens if we are back, take another pay cut or we'll shut it down? I don't know how well paid or otherwise the people at Grangemouth are in comparison with the sector, nor how easy it is to get work in the oil/chemical industries however. I took a pay freeze and hours cut in 2008-2010, but it was defined as temporary and indeed I'm getting pay rises once again and my hours are back up to full as the economy and job book improved. I trusted the management of our company (and could see how difficult getting work at that time was) but I'm not sure if I trust the multi-millionaire owner of this plant. Indeed I'm not sure who I trust in this at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorizaar Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Can you prove this, I couldn't see anything in Herald Online to support this - that £55k is their basic wage and doesn't include allowances for shift work, working on Public Holidays when scheduled to do so, bonuses (which are to be withdrawn under the new management proposals), and even overtime (they may be contracted to over 39 hours per week) plus unscheduled overtime to cover absences?* It seems to me this is part of company spin to try and reduce sympathy for the workers. Except it's gone beyond their pay being frozen and it seems their pension will soon be less generous. It seems to me it's the part in red that bothers you - blue collar workers getting a decent wage. Like I've said elsewhere they didn't get it without struggling with the management over years, perhaps decades, and some of the barely repressed glee that they will be forced to take a drop in their standard of living is unpleasant. ************************************* Workers being contracted to over 39 hours per week when unemployment is so high is another issue. I'm not bothered by anyone earning a decent wage. I am bothered by people on a decent wage refusing to accept a pay freeze.It's actually not a decent wage, it's a fantastic wage and puts them among the highest earners of the entire population. Reading about their pension also reveals they don't contribute anything towards it personally. If this is proven to be wrong, fair enough, but again, no sympathy for people getting free pensions being asked to get a bit less. I wonder what canteen and cleaning staff at the plant are paid and how they feel about folk earning £55k doing them out of a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I'm not sure if I trust the multi-millionaire owner of this plant. He is, in fact, a billionaire. Speaks volumes, if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I wonder what canteen and cleaning staff at the plant are paid and how they feel about folk earning £55k doing them out of a job. Maybe the canteen and cleaning staff might be inclined to redirect their attention to the shareholders of the company as opposed to their colleagues. Your apparent devotion to the divide and conquer approach to industrial relations would be a better fit in the 1920s, I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorizaar Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Maybe the canteen and cleaning staff might be inclined to redirect their attention to the shareholders of the company as opposed to their colleagues. Your apparent devotion to the divide and conquer approach to industrial relations would be a better fit in the 1920s, I'm afraid. I have no devotion to anything. I judge any dispute on it's own merits and decide on that. I'm as far removed from divide and conquer as can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I'm not bothered by anyone earning a decent wage. I am bothered by people on a decent wage refusing to accept a pay freeze. It's actually not a decent wage, it's a fantastic wage and puts them among the highest earners of the entire population. Reading about their pension also reveals they don't contribute anything towards it personally. If this is proven to be wrong, fair enough, but again, no sympathy for people getting free pensions being asked to get a bit less. I wonder what canteen and cleaning staff at the plant are paid and how they feel about folk earning £55k doing them out of a job. Once again it's more than a pay freeze and even if they don't contribute to their pension then it's a "benefit in kind" - so what. The only direct mention I can find online of £55k says nothing about whether this is their basic wage or final with all additions included Ineos said it was conducting direct consultations with employees on the changes to pensions and terms & conditions. It said the changes had already been highlighted in the company's Survival Plan. They said this would include "a top quality money-purchase pension scheme to replace the unaffordable final salary scheme" and maintain their salary (typically £55,000 per year). Why demonize a segment of the workforce who were only one party to an agreement signed in better times? If the present conditions are unsustainable that's a different issue, having said all this Unite & the plant workers have shot themselves in the foot by calling a strike on politically motivated grounds and they'll both have to accept whatever offer Ineos are now willing to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 No it doesn't pay the bills but in the end do we want a race to the bottom where we lose all our job benefits and get pay cut and should just be happy to have a job? In 2 years down the line what happens if we are back, take another pay cut or we'll shut it down? No what you do is accept the cut now, save your money (and frankly anyone not saving a whack of a £55k salary needs to sort themselves out) and find a new job whil;e you are still earning. That is what I would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I wonder what canteen and cleaning staff at the plant are paid and how they feel about folk earning £55k doing them out of a job. With respect whilst I may have some sympathy with your view about how high a salary £55k is, the above sentence is you doing the company's job for them. It wasn't the £55k earners who have brought this company to it's knees. It was a handful of twats earning probably in excess of £5 million per year in salary and bonuses who couldn't fathom out hwo to make money from a chemicals company when most other companies in the sector are hauling in billions in profits. THAT should be your target. By attacking the £55k earners you are displaying naked jealousy. Frankly it's pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorizaar Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 By attacking the £55k earners you are displaying naked jealousy. Frankly it's pathetic. Why would I be jealous of someone earning £55k? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) Why would I be jealous of someone earning £55k? WAIT! Don't tell me. This is where you try and convince us you earn way more than that. God I'm good at this. BTW for someone who isn't jealous you seem to be obsessed with talking about that salary. Edited October 24, 2013 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorizaar Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 WAIT! Don't tell me. This is where you try and convince us you earn way more than that. God I'm good at this. BTW for someone who isn't jealous you seem to be obsessed with talking about that salary. Not trying to convince anything. My salary is irrelevant to my opinion. Again, in what way am I jealous of people earning £55k? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 f**kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smcc Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) Been announced that petro-chemical plant is to remain open. Edited October 25, 2013 by smcc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Been announced that petro-chemical plant is to remain open. GREAT NEWS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) That will be a relief to many. A lot of anxiety and distress could have been avoided, however, had the key players sat down and negotiated as opposed to standing waving their dicks around. ETA: following a brief look at the online news reports, I would be inclined to keep the fizz on ice until the details are clearer. Edited October 25, 2013 by Drew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 That will be a relief to many. A lot of anxiety and distress could have been avoided, however, had the key players sat down and negotiated as opposed to standing waving their dicks around. Evidence of this dick waving? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Evidence of this dick waving? ;) I've got the photos, and will be keeping them safe for a rainy day.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted October 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Hopefully those lazy good for nothing and never done a days work in their lives Union fannies will keep their traps shut in future. Pat Rafferty - what a fud, give me f**king strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 I've got the photos, and will be keeping them safe for a rainy day.... It's pissing down up here, get them sent. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaside Nipper Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Hopefully those lazy good for nothing and never done a days work in their lives Union fannies will keep their traps shut in future. Pat Rafferty - what a fud, give me f**king strength. this, lovin your work.......... you know for sure that the guy is gonna claim credit for this. Gawd what a farce, there must be a fair few hundred Unite members binned their cards. Thankfully , whatever the rights and wrongs , it is now undeniably a victory for common sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaside Nipper Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 I've got the photos, and will be keeping them safe in my splinter free potting shed for a rainy day.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 The next time you visit the Opticians you better tell them that you'll need a stronger prescription. You're funny, really, you are a hoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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