The Politics Thread

[salmonbuddie]

Liar...

:-)

[Stuart Dickson]

Thanks for the vote of confidence but why would we want to counter our expert analysis, even if we did consider it "expert", as you appear to? Did we even put forward any analysis of this, expert or otherwise?

I don't believe that I have ever put myself forward as an expert in this stuff, all I have ever done is point and laugh at your ridiculous and wildly inaccurate claims and calculations. I'm sure that other experts will be along soon with contradictory analysis, I doubt you will go to the trouble of quoting them.

Your mention of premium bonds, after proving yourself wrong by quoting the post not so long ago, just proves that you are as stupid as #thichasfcuk and really have no valid contribution to make - to anything.

You're probably more pissed off these days because there are less pictures of Salmond in the papers for you to take to wank over in the toilet during the breaks between your rounds of the site, so I won't slag you at this time.

Oh dear. Comprehension obviously wasn't taught in your school. The "their" I was referring to was the Centre for Policy Studies.

You were the one asking silly questions that showed up your ineptitude when it comes to the economy. Thank you for not disappointing me

[Bud the Baker]

3 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

Thanks for the vote of confidence but why would we want to counter our expert analysis, even if we did consider it "expert", as you appear to? Did we even put forward any analysis of this, expert or otherwise?

I don't believe that I have ever put myself forward as an expert in this stuff, all I have ever done is point and laugh at your ridiculous and wildly inaccurate claims and calculations. I'm sure that other experts will be along soon with contradictory analysis, I doubt you will go to the trouble of quoting them.

Your mention of premium bonds, after proving yourself wrong by quoting the post not so long ago, just proves that you are as stupid as #thichasfcuk and really have no valid contribution to make - to anything.

You're probably more pissed off these days because there are less pictures of Salmond in the papers for you to take to wank over in the toilet during the breaks between your rounds of the site, so I won't slag you at this time.

You do know the CPS is a tool of the Conservative Party, founded by Thatcher & Keith Joseph back in the day and continues to be associated with fundamentalist free market thinkers like Britannia Unchained - it's only their opinion and not one I'd regard as neutral on the issue of Scottish Independence.

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Bud the Baker

[oaksoft]

4 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

I see the experts at the Centre for Policy Studies have given their view on Scottish Independence. "Greece without the sun" is the direct quote. They went on to say that Scotlands budget deficit at present is 300% higher than the rest of the UK in terms of GDP.

Now I look forward to seeing Slarti and Oaksoft counter their expert analysis with tales of Nationalist Grannies buying new Scottish Groat Premium Bonds will help keep the country afloat and telling us all that on extremely windy days in Scotland we'll be able to raise enough money to give a handful of our pensioners their state pension if the South East of England will only buy our spare electricity from us instead of either generating their own, or getting it from their near neighbour in France. 
 

You are quoting a Tory think tank created by Thatcher and the paedophile Keith Joseph. It was created SPECIFICALLY to deal with threats to the existence of the Uk. The text should be telling you it is hardly independent.

 

To call this "expert analysis" is embarassing.

Edited July 5, 2016 by oaksoft

[FTOF]

Great stuff this.

Fatty really has gone to town on making himself look even more ignorant than he usually does.

[Stuart Dickson]

Oh dear somethings never change. In 2014 the SNP ran an Independence Referendum publishing a White Paper in which they ignored the advice of absolutely every expert including the CPS think tank and their own economic advisors who they had commissioned at taxpayers expense and based the costings of every promise in that paper on a fantasy oil price figure that was 300% higher than the reality in early 2016.

And here we go again. Yet again Natsis are unwilling to listen to any expert opinion unless it says what they want it to say despite the evidence.

Tell me what facts have the CPS got wrong? Is Scotland's GDP per capita better than the rest of the UK? Does Scotland run with a budget surplus or the deficit of £15bn the Scottish Government themselves admit to?

What is embarrassing is the argument that Scotland should create trade barriers between us and our biggest customers by joining a Political Union with 27 other member countries and attempting to dress that up as independence.

[oaksoft]

An "expert report" using a phrase comparing Scotland to Greece.

[oaksoft]

"Of course, it would be impertinent to suggest that Scotland’s circumstances are directly equivalent to those of Greece".

 

Yes it WOULD be impertinent as well as laughable to suggest that Scotland's circumstances are directly equivalent to those of Greece but it didn't f**king stop them doing it.

Expert report my arse.

[Stuart Dickson]

"Of course, it would be impertinent to suggest that Scotland’s circumstances are directly equivalent to those of Greece".

 

Yes it WOULD be impertinent as well as laughable to suggest that Scotland's circumstances are directly equivalent to those of Greece but it didn't f**king stop them doing it.

Expert report my arse.

Again Oaksoft which of the facts do you dispute? You can argue with the comparison if you like but disputing the fact that an Independent Scotland would be utterly f**ked is much harder to do, isn't it.?

[Bud the Baker]

54 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Again Oaksoft which of the facts do you dispute? You can argue with the comparison if you like but disputing the fact that an Independent Scotland would be utterly f**ked is much harder to do, isn't it.?

No-one is saying independence will be problem free but quoting half a page from a right wing think tank aligned with the pro-union Conservative party and then with no rationale (other than your personal prejudices) using even more extreme language proves nothing.

An independent Scotland wouldn't be constrained by the free-market ideology of the present Conservative government, next the UK hasn't even triggered Article 50 yet so there is at least two years while we'll still be operating under EU rules. The state of the world economy, oil price at that time is anyone's guess. Then we don't know what relationship the UK will have with the EU - if the UK joins EFTA (which seems the likeliest option at present) then the Leave vote will be rendered pretty pointless and there will be no trade barriers with our ex-partners in the UK anyway.

Wetting your pants now seems pretty pointless but even if independence does come at a price then it would have to be pretty hefty to make me change my mind and my vote.

[Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes]

On 7/2/2016 at 5:01 PM, Slartibartfast said:

I'm extremely tangible, thank you.

Go to a decent salon or was it a nice Mediterranean holiday....?

[Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes]

On 7/3/2016 at 6:46 AM, Stuart Dickson said:

That's almost as funny as this:-
 

 

[Stuart Dickson]

No-one is saying independence will be problem free but quoting half a page from a right wing think tank aligned with the pro-union Conservative party and then with no rationale (other than your personal prejudices) using even more extreme language proves nothing.

An independent Scotland wouldn't be constrained by the free-market ideology of the present Conservative government, next the UK hasn't even triggered Article 50 yet so there is at least two years while we'll still be operating under EU rules. The state of the world economy, oil price at that time is anyone's guess. Then we don't know what relationship the UK will have with the EU - if the UK joins EFTA (which seems the likeliest option at present) then the Leave vote will be rendered pretty pointless and there will be no trade barriers with our ex-partners in the UK anyway.

Wetting your pants now seems pretty pointless but even if independence does come at a price then it would have to be pretty hefty to make me change my mind and my vote.

Well so far it's an extra £2500 per year per person living in Scotland - that's every single man, woman, transgender and child regardless of occupational status. That's just to keep things as they are, with a failing health service, failing education system and emergency services that can't cope currently never mind when they have to set up border patrols all along the English border.

I could afford the £7500 share for my household but I certainly don't think Scotland leaving one political Union for another is worth it. Especially not when the one we would be leaving has been successful for 400 years whilst the one Wed be so desperate to join has been failing for the last 20.

[Bud the Baker]

1 hour ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Well so far it's an extra £2500 per year per person living in Scotland - that's every single man, woman, transgender and child regardless of occupational status. That's just to keep things as they are, with a failing health service, failing education system and emergency services that can't cope currently never mind when they have to set up border patrols all along the English border.

I could afford the £7500 share for my household but I certainly don't think Scotland leaving one political Union for another is worth it.

According to whom? What assumptions were made?

Anyway like I said it's any costing is premature until we know all the options at national & international level and the state of the world economy at the time.

The situation has only come to the fore because Scotland is being taken out of one political Union by another against it's will.

 

[oaksoft]

That's a third massive commercial property investment fund in as many days which has had to stop trading due to Brexit.

How anyone can describe this as good news for business is frankly beyond me.

[oaksoft]

5 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Again Oaksoft which of the facts do you dispute? You can argue with the comparison if you like but disputing the fact that an Independent Scotland would be utterly f**ked is much harder to do, isn't it.?

You still coming back for more punishment?

I trust no "fact" or figure given out by any political organisation. Especially one so obviously biased against a particular position.

Only a brainwashed fool would claim these were "facts". Find another source of information which is not biased and I'll perhaps start to think about how to answer their points.

Is that a reasonable enough position to take?

[Stuart Dickson]

Institute of Fiscal Studies

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/24/ifs-scotland-debts-three-times-greater-uk

[Stuart Dickson]

3 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

According to whom? What assumptions were made?

Anyway like I said it's any costing is premature until we know all the options at national & international level and the state of the world economy at the time.

The situation has only come to the fore because Scotland is being taken out of one political Union by another against it's will.

 

According to the Scottish Government 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35757787

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Institute of Fiscal Studies

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/24/ifs-scotland-debts-three-times-greater-uk

No idea why you didnt do that the first time around.

Unfortunately however you are deacribing a situation brought about whilst we are being ruled from Westminster.

This is a case for independence not a case for staying with the broken system which landed us in the shite in the first place.

[Stuart Dickson]

15 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

No idea why you didnt do that the first time around.

Unfortunately however you are deacribing a situation brought about whilst we are being ruled from Westminster.

This is a case for independence not a case for staying with the broken system which landed us in the shite in the first place.

It's far more fun watching you make a fool of yourself with ridiculous claims that you won't listen to experts.

To answer your new point the problem for the SNP is actually Scots are pretty comfortable in the current system. Imagine trying to sell to the Scottish electorate a system that will see Scotland have to scrap the NHS, or personal pensions, or welfare benefits whilst also having to pay more tax? Fancy it? Neither did the Greeks, but that's exactly the kind of so called austerity cuts that were forced upon it by the EU. 

There is no chance of Scottish Independence ever happening, especially since the SNP shot their load and gave their opposition all the evidence they need to discredit them on the economic argument after that pile of fanciful shite that was the White Paper. In the two years since the Scottish Referendum the Scottish economy has completely tanked. Thankfully 55% of Scots hadn't been fooled. They voted No and we didn't have to feel the pain of the last two years because we remained in the United Kingdom and thank Christ we did. 

 

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Financial experts is a bit of an oxymoron.

How often do these financial experts get their economic forecasts correct?

The only thing that can be said with any certainly is that the financial markets don't like change, which is quite ironic given that it's all pretty much gambling.

[stlucifer]

6 minutes ago, tony soprano said:

Financial experts is a bit of an oxymoron.

How often do these financial experts get their economic forecasts correct?

The only thing that can be said with any certainly is that the financial markets don't like change, which is quite ironic given that it's all pretty much gambling.

No chance of them shopping at Agnew's then!

[Bud the Baker]

3 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

According to the Scottish Government 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35757787

See what you can do when you refrain from name calling.

 

Both the BBC & Guardian articles you've quoted on this page are out of date as they're from March of this year - prior to the UK's decision to leave the EU. However I'll address the points that Scotland can't afford independence because of the budget deficit and the public spending subsidy we receive - neither are ideal at present but whether they are insurmountable problems is a matter of interpretation.

 

1. Budget Deficit - It's true you can't run a budget deficit continuously but as a Keynesian I adhere to the theory that the budget should be balanced over the course of an economic cycle. In the good years you bank the surplus and use it to fund the deficit in the bad years - this was the dominant economic theory in the West from the recovery of the 1930's and again after WW2 until the oil crisis and stagflation of the 1970's (I'd argue the theory goes back even further and that Joseph's Dream in the Bible is a classic example of Keynesianism).

It's true that Scotland's current deficit is worryingly high but as a Nationalist I'd argue that this is largely due to us being a region of the UK and that post-independence a Scottish government would work towards a more balanced and stable economy. No sane Nationalist wanted an IndyRef2 this early but the prospect has been forced on us by the EU Referendum result and depending on the price of oil and the state of the world economy in general we may not be in a strong enough financial position to become independent outwith a bigger organization like the EU or EFTA. Unless all the factors are against us and the cost is prohibitively high I would much prefer independence to remaining in the UK with the likelihood of a perma-Conservative government run by Monetarists.

 

2. Public Spending - It's true Scotland does receive a disproportionately high amount of Public Spending due to the Barnett Formula but this is because it was understood that most of the administrative jobs were located in England and that this constituted a hidden subsidy, even the Thatcher government accepted this while simultaneously playing the subsidy junkie card. With the current and likely ongoing Conservative governments at Westminster looking increasingly likely to whittle down or even eliminate this rebate to appease UKIP voters again I think we face greater economic uncertainty by remaining UK than leaving.

 

Again I'll not try to deny that there are problems that will have to be addressed before Scotland can become independent from the UK but I believe if these are addressed successfully then we have a better future financially and culturally outwith the UK and within the EU - I for one remain optimistic that I will see an independent Scotland.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Bud the Baker

[Stuart Dickson]

1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

See what you can do when you refrain from name calling.

 

Both the BBC & Guardian articles you've quoted on this page are out of date as they're from March of this year - prior to the UK's decision to leave the EU. However I'll address the points that Scotland can't afford independence because of the budget deficit and the public spending subsidy we receive - neither are ideal at present but whether they are insurmountable problems is a matter of interpretation.

 

1. Budget Deficit - It's true you can't run a budget deficit continuously but as a Keynesian I adhere to the theory that the budget should be balanced over the course of an economic cycle. In the good years you bank the surplus and use it to fund the deficit in the bad years - this was the dominant economic theory in the West from the recovery of the 1930's and again after WW2 until the oil crisis and stagflation of the 1970's (I'd argue the theory goes back even further and that Joseph's Dream in the Bible is a classic example of Keynesianism).

It's true that Scotland's current deficit is worryingly high but as a Nationalist I'd argue that this is largely due to us being a region of the UK and that post-independence a Scottish government would work towards a more balanced and stable economy. No sane Nationalist wanted an IndyRef2 this early but the prospect has been forced on us by the EU Referendum result and depending on the price of oil and the state of the world economy in general we may not be in a strong enough financial position to become independent outwith a bigger organization like the EU or EFTA. Unless all the factors are against us and the cost is prohibitively high I would much prefer independence to remaining in the UK with the likelihood of a perma-Conservative government run by Monetarists.

 

2. Public Spending - It's true Scotland does receive a disproportionately high amount of Public Spending due to the Barnett Formula but this is because it was understood that most of the administrative jobs were located in England and that this constituted a hidden subsidy, even the Thatcher government accepted this while simultaneously playing the subsidy junkie card. With the current and likely ongoing Conservative governments at Westminster looking increasingly likely to whittle down or even eliminate this rebate to appease UKIP voters again I think we face greater economic uncertainty by remaining UK than leaving.

 

Again I'll not try to deny that there are problems that will have to be addressed before Scotland can become independent from the UK but I believe if these are addressed successfully then we have a better future financially and culturally outwith the UK and within the EU - I for one remain optimistic that I will see an independent Scotland.

But name calling is more fun, isn't it?  

You know what is ironic - the fact that the UK voted to leave the EU should have helped to boost the Scottish Economy. The falling value of the £ against the $ that dafties like Oaksoft, Salmonbuddie and FTOF keep banging on about should actually good news for Scotland. After all every single barrel of oil is traded in $US and if you get more £ for the $ then that should offer a significant boost in terms of oil revenue. You'd think the SNP would be celebrating.....but no because what is good news for Scotland currently is bad news for the political ambitions of Nicola Sturgeon and her band of low grade politicians. 

Tell me though, since we're being serious here just now - on what basis do you see a better financial future outwith the UK political union and within the EU? What is it that gives you hope? Indeed what did you see in the White Paper that suggested that even if the Scottish Government had a budget surplus that it would be doing any saving, and what in all the anti-austerity rhetoric that John Swinney, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon have always espoused suggests to you that anyone in the SNP would ever have even tried to control government spending to live within our means? 

 

[Bud the Baker]

On ‎06‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 1:25 AM, Stuart Dickson said:

But name calling is more fun, isn't it?  

You know what is ironic - the fact that the UK voted to leave the EU should have helped to boost the Scottish Economy. The falling value of the £ against the $ that dafties like Oaksoft, Salmonbuddie and FTOF keep banging on about should actually good news for Scotland. After all every single barrel of oil is traded in $US and if you get more £ for the $ then that should offer a significant boost in terms of oil revenue. You'd think the SNP would be celebrating.....but no because what is good news for Scotland currently is bad news for the political ambitions of Nicola Sturgeon an her band of low grade politicians. 

Tell me though, since we're being serious here just now - on what basis do you see a better financial future outwith the UK political union and within the EU? What is it that gives you hope? Indeed what did you see in the White Paper that suggested that even if the Scottish Government had a budget surplus that it would be doing any saving, and what in all the anti-austerity rhetoric that John Swinney, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon have always espoused suggests to you that anyone in the SNP would ever have even tried to control government spending to live within our means? 

 

I said it all in the last post - the Laws of Economics, irregular as they are, will continue and  that an Edinburgh based government will focus upon Scotland attaining a more balanced economy. Scotland had a budget surplus from the 1980's until the global recession hit in 2008 and while I know we won't ever see those days again I believe that the oil price has bottomed out and that we are in a position to start building a better economy and a better nation.

The anti-austerity rhetoric you condemn is a mixture of social compassion and a belief in Keynesian economics (the economic cycle again) that the economy will expand and provide a budget surplus (it always has before) - you remind me of the time when Thatcher let the mask slip and ranted about people who drool compassion. There always was a nasty edge to Monetarism (even Theresa May admitted it) and again I dread  the thought of what a UK Conservative government will do once we/they're unhinged from Brussels. It really is the nasty party with it's combination of Free Market economic thinkers in the City, the Golf Club reactionaries out in the shires and it's current pitch to the people who have been left behind in the depressed areas of England outside LondonLand.(to quote Gordon Brown)

Quote

If we don’t, Brown warns, the Union is in big trouble:

‘No union can survive without unionists and, after an election in which, to head off Ukip, the Conservative and Unionist party presented itself as the English Nationalist party, it is clear that the union is on life support … It is London’s equivocation over Scotland that is becoming the greater risk to the UK.’

Finally as I've said no sane Nationalist would have chosen the push for IndyRef2 now but it's kinda been taken out of our hands - I'll remind you of what Henry McLeish said on Sunday

Quote

Meanwhile, former Labour first minister Henry McLeish has said he could back independence, but that Scotland is "not ready".

Mr McLeish told Sunday Politics Scotland "I've said the European issue has strengthened, positively, the case of independence and that I could vote for independence.

"I was devastated last week when we took that catastrophic decision to leave the EU, I think that was a tipping point."

He added: "But let me also put a shot across the bows of the SNP - we are not ready for independence, even if that was a reality.

"We have nation-building to do, we've got questions over the currency and fiscal deficit and what Brexit has shown us is that when you have a minority voting for one thing you create bitterness."

In terms of constituency votes Labour is still the second largest party in Scotland ahead of the Tories, I am the mainstream of Scottish political opinion - not you. The status quo that the country voted for in September 2014 no longer exists, I don't want to live in the UK governed by Monetarists allied to the UKIPers. To continue with Gordon Brown's analogy the Union has flatlined, the sensible to do is leave, I hope that NS and her colleagues can negotiate a deal which will allow us to stay in the EU and believe if she can then the majority of Scots will vote for Independence this time, the alternative is just horrible.

 

Edited July 7, 2016 by Bud the Baker