If we stay up... Give us the family stand back.

[bazil85]

13 hours ago, DumboBud said:

The difficulty that many of us have is that you continually conflate your opinion with facts, evidence and the truth. 

Just because something is said by you over and over does not make it true, a fact or a even a balanced conclusion based on facts. 

The one fact that can’t be disputed is that the board took the decision that this season they would prefer to increase the number of OF fans in our ground (with the unknown additional income and costs that that comes with that) to having a family area for our own fans, with the unknown but factual loss of income and unknown loss of fans in the longer term. 

I don’t, I always very clearly put where things are facts. For example record crowds and season ticket sales this season at the new stadium are facts. Clubs can change away ticket allocations like Killie did is fact. An opinion is (based on the first point) that large numbers of st Mirren fans aren’t being put off by the decision. 

Your point on the unknown income/ expenses has very heavily been debated on here. I have estimated them both (with very reserved figures ) and never claimed the figures as fact.

What I have done is provide evidence for my calculations. (Police costs, steward wages, ticket prices). I’ve asked others before and they usually avoid the question. Do you think my calculations are way over estimated? 

Your last statement of fact is also massively misleading because it only impacted up to four fixtures so no they haven’t preferred more OF fans to a family section for the majority of games anyway. It is also not fact that the decision will cause us to lose fans long-term 

[bazil85]

12 hours ago, BuddieinEK said:

But they are right!
Scottish football NEEDS them!
Surely you have been paying attention to Baz

Time and time again he has gone out of his way to prove how good Rangers are for Scottish football and Saints in particular!

Don't you realise that reducing their numbers will not reduce sectarian incidents, but could financially endanger Saints despite increased attendances!

I think that was a fair summation!

I have never once said we ‘need them’ you’ve been caught lying again. The discussion has always been about the increased income (I have also never said it is required income).

A second lie in me saying how good they are for Scottish football. I would personally escort Celtic and Rangers out of Scottish football today if it was an option. 

Yes or no, reducing them by a few hundred fans will remove sectarianism and bigotry from St Mirren Park? 

Edited April 17, 2019 by bazil85

[Bud the Baker]

@bazil85What if it was the difference between gettingHladky & Popescu wages paid to the end of the season?

Do you think "a few hundred fans" (turns out @oaksoft was right all along)  minus costs is gonna pay for that?

Turns out your spinning one story in the SMiSA thread and another one here - start splitting hairs Melchy! 

 

[Lord Pityme]

Poor Baz.... its all falling away. killie are leading the way and intend to build on this by creating a fan zone behind their family stand, and making it a permanent decision to restrict sectarianism . Wheras the Bozo's on our board Have created a 'Bigot Zone' right around our stadium!

still our board like toasting the queen in the ibrox boardroom, so would they upset their bessie's?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-celtic-face-further-rugby-14378740

Edited April 17, 2019 by Lord Pityme

[bazil85]

2 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

@bazil85What if it was the difference between gettingHladky & Popescu wages paid to the end of the season?

Do you think "a few hundred fans" (turns out @oaksoft was right all along)  minus costs is gonna pay for that?

Turns out your spinning one story in the SMiSA thread and another one here - start splitting hairs Melchy! 

 

The difference in tickets available is roughly 900. I didn’t think they had fully sold out (someone suggested they had but didn’t provide evidence of this) but for ease let’s assume they did. 

900 fans X 3 games X £20 (reduced as an estimate for concessions) £54,000. Minus the expenses I have previously quoted and given our average player wage, the money would likely cover their wages until end of the season 

turns out I wasn’t 

 

[bazil85]

9 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

Poor Baz.... its all falling away. killie are leading the way and intend to build on this by creating a fan zone behind their family stand, and making it a permanent decision to restrict sectarianism . Wheras the Bozo's on our board Have created a 'Bigot Zone' right around our stadium!

still our board like toasting the queen in the ibrox boardroom, so would they upset their bessie's?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-celtic-face-further-rugby-14378740

Killie have changed this less than 24 hours ago based on their 150 anniversary, capitalising on increased crowds & a European football push.

LPM tries to spin this as a negative against SMFC, who in a completely different situation don’t instantly announce the same (even though we have no games against them coming up) the desperation to be negative against the team you ‘support’ is real 

[Guest TPAFKATS]

We could reverse the decision on their ticket allocation like Kilmarnock did yesterday. That’s my point. If we couldn't do it, how could Killie? 

You know that Killie have exactly the same circumstances as us?
The club can change its mind but it can't reverse a decision during a season once weve charged a lower rate for season tickets.
You then need to either charge full or reduced price to season ticket holders for the remaining game(s) or let them in free as part of their ticket.

It's not reversing, it's changing.

[Bud the Baker]

4 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

The difference in tickets available is roughly 900. I didn’t think they had fully sold out (someone suggested they had but didn’t provide evidence of this) but for ease let’s assume they did. 

900 fans X 3 games X £20 (reduced as an estimate for concessions) £54,000. Minus the expenses I have previously quoted and given our average player wage, the money would likely cover their wages until end of the season 

turns out I wasn’t 

 

900 fans x 3 (your words) is not a few hundred (also your words), you've been caught out - keep spinning Melchy! 

 

[Lord Pityme]

4 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Killie have changed this less than 24 hours ago based on their 150 anniversary, capitalising on increased crowds & a European football push.

LPM tries to spin this as a negative against SMFC, who in a completely different situation don’t instantly announce the same (even though we have no games against them coming up) the desperation to be negative against the team you ‘support’ is real 

Killie are doing it for every bigot game going forward now! Read the article, their board have realised with fans staying away when half their stadium or more is given up to sectarianism, it makes much better sound financial sense to limit the bigot support, and invest, involve and facilitate their own support, families children etc...

you could concede now, given other boards are acknowledging it,  that it was a flawed, short term thinking mistake that damages the club now, tomorrow and in the future. Wtf is so hard there to get your head round? Unless you run the Bridgeton Loyal bus lol.

[bazil85]

15 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

You know that Killie have exactly the same circumstances as us?
The club can change its mind but it can't reverse a decision during a season once weve charged a lower rate for season tickets.
You then need to either charge full or reduced price to season ticket holders for the remaining game(s) or let them in free as part of their ticket.

It's not reversing, it's changing.

I think you’re confusing my comment with the season ticket situation to the actual allowance to away fans. Killie are proof that changing allowance is okay. Otherwise how could they do it?

I have made no comment on the logistics regarding how we sold season tickets and if we had decided to change to one stand, what the club would have done. 

[bazil85]

14 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

900 fans x 3 (your words) is not a few hundred (also your words), you've been caught out - keep spinning Melchy! 

 

Few hundred per game, talk about splitting hairs  but glad you agree the numbers are considerable enough to generate good income which I have argued all along 

notice you haven’t been willing to answer the question either on how that removes bigotry from our stadium 

[bazil85]

10 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

Killie are doing it for every bigot game going forward now! Read the article, their board have realised with fans staying away when half their stadium or more is given up to sectarianism, it makes much better sound financial sense to limit the bigot support, and invest, involve and facilitate their own support, families children etc...

you could concede now, given other boards are acknowledging it,  that it was a flawed, short term thinking mistake that damages the club now, tomorrow and in the future. Wtf is so hard there to get your head round? Unless you run the Bridgeton Loyal bus lol.

Yep to build on increased fan numbers and the situation they’re in. Good on them, I hope one day we can be in the same situation and take the same decision.

So you’re actually claiming the Killie board did this only for that reason and not to do with their increasing crowds. And they would have taken the same decision if our situations were reversed and they were in 11th place? Prove it. 

[Lord Pityme]

1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

Yep to build on increased fan numbers and the situation they’re in. Good on them, I hope one day we can be in the same situation and take the same decision.

So you’re actually claiming the Killie board did this only for that reason and not to do with their increasing crowds. And they would have taken the same decision if our situations were reversed and they were in 11th place? Prove it. 

But Baz uou keep telling us how our home crowds have increased, but drop on bigot games.... you feel a bit like this with it all turning to crap around you?

https://giphy.com/gifs/jdVMrsov7MWt2/html5

[Ayrshire Saints]

 

23 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Killie have changed this less than 24 hours ago based on their 150 anniversary, capitalising on increased crowds & a European football push.

LPM tries to spin this as a negative against SMFC, who in a completely different situation don’t instantly announce the same (even though we have no games against them coming up) the desperation to be negative against the team you ‘support’ is real 

That's the Killie spin, lets not be anything but honest here Killie have done this in direct response to the sectarian bile directed at their manager. Anyone that believes otherwise is naïve in the extreme.

[BuddieinEK]

I have never once said we ‘need them’ you’ve been caught lying again. The discussion has always been about the increased income (I have also never said it is required income).
A second lie in me saying how good they are for Scottish football. I would personally escort Celtic and Rangers out of Scottish football today if it was an option. 
Yes or no, reducing them by a few hundred fans will remove sectarianism and bigotry from St Mirren Park? 

Here Baz! Over here!

Sorry... I can see you are spiraling out of control here!

Errrr... You implied it, which using your own standard of measurement makes it the undeniable, scientifically proven truth for as long as it suits my side of the debate!
[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]

[BuddieinEK]

I have never once said we ‘need them’ you’ve been caught lying again. The discussion has always been about the increased income (I have also never said it is required income).
A second lie in me saying how good they are for Scottish football. I would personally escort Celtic and Rangers out of Scottish football today if it was an option. 
Yes or no, reducing them by a few hundred fans will remove sectarianism and bigotry from St Mirren Park? 

A few hundred, 900 or over a thousand?

Which version of your truth are we dealing with here?

Less old firm fans = less people to carry out sectarian crimes = a reduced chance of it happening.

Having them in one part of the ground makes it easier to monitor and control!

Seemples.

Time for your flute lesson now?
[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji12]

[bazil85]

7 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

But Baz uou keep telling us how our home crowds have increased, but drop on bigot games.... you feel a bit like this with it all turning to crap around you?

https://giphy.com/gifs/jdVMrsov7MWt2/html5

I have shown they don't considerably drop for the bigot games, GLS had said historically we see a drop in family and young fans going to these games but I have provided evidence of this along with comparisons to other crowds that this doesn't appear significant this season (not saying it's zero).

There's certainly no evidence that our crowds drastically fall BECAUSE of the arrangement.  

[Bud the Baker]

1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

Few hundred per game, talk about splitting hairs  but glad you agree the numbers are considerable enough to generate good income which I have argued all along 

notice you haven’t been willing to answer the question either on how that removes bigotry from our stadium 

No, that's just a lie, I've said giving the Family Stand to the OF for these games has not led to a significant increase in attendances at these matches consistently. 

My point is you're made a different claim on this thread than the one you made on the SMiSA thread - as I say you've been caught out! 

Some further questions - how many people have you been arguing with over the past couple of days on this issue and do you genuinely think we are all wrong or is it that you're just too arrogant to accept other peoples opinions. 

 

[bazil85]

10 minutes ago, Ayrshire Saints said:

 

That's the Killie spin, lets not be anything but honest here Killie have done this in direct response to the sectarian bile directed at their manager. Anyone that believes otherwise is naïve in the extreme.

Do you genuinely think they would have made this call if their crowds hadn't increased? Their average crowd is up 580 on last season and still with likely three of their biggest attended games to come, this will surely rise.

Bit of a coincidence they've made the call this season, it isn't like bigotry is new in this country... 

[bazil85]

13 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said:

Here Baz! Over here!

Sorry... I can see you are spiraling out of control here!

Errrr... You implied it, which using your own standard of measurement makes it the undeniable, scientifically proven truth for as long as it suits my side of the debate!

I didn't though did I? That's a fib on your part.  Just to avoid any doubt, we do not 'need' this money and I would welcome these two clubs leaving our football leagues completely. No implying there is there? 

Yet again, show me where I have presented opinion as fact, you can't. 

[bazil85]

12 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said:

A few hundred, 900 or over a thousand?

Which version of your truth are we dealing with here?

Less old firm fans = less people to carry out sectarian crimes = a reduced chance of it happening.

Having them in one part of the ground makes it easier to monitor and control!

Seemples.

Time for your flute lesson now?

It's funny isn't it? I've asked so many people to point out where I have lied, fabricated or moved goalposts and been rebuffed practically every time. When there is something as trivial as me calling figures I had transparently quoted a 'few hundred' you and Baker are all over it, why is that? Is it because it's the first time you think you've found an error from me? 

Unlike many on here I am big enough to put my hands up, the word 'few' probably wasn't the best to reference my previous figures, I must be the anti-Christ 

As for the rest, we have examples of them being in home ends before, we've had fans turned out, that's still a risk. Also remember we aren't talking about them being in one part of the ground, we're talking about them being in away stand + w6/7. Remember how you and Oak spent about four pages telling me I wasn't allowed to reference one stand?  Is there an additional risk needing to segregate a stand...? 

Last part is again very disappointing to see from a St Mirren fan, bad enough we get it from the bigots. I do wonder why you elude to me favouring Rangers over Celtic? Where has that come from, the majority of the chat has been comparing Celtic grounds with hardly any chat on the Sevconions...

It would be very interesting for you to explain this to me but we know you'll avoid like so much else.

Anyone else willing to go on record condoning this behaviour? I surely can't be the only one that has experience bigots (from both sides) claiming I favour the other team. 

[bazil85]

15 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

No, that's just a lie, I've said giving the Family Stand to the OF for these games has not led to a significant increase in attendances at these matches consistently. 

My point is you're made a different claim on this thread than the one you made on the SMiSA thread - as I say you've been caught out! 

Some further questions - how many people have you been arguing with over the past couple of days on this issue and do you genuinely think we are all wrong or is it that you're just too arrogant to accept other peoples opinions. 

 

Where’s your evidence for your claim? I have quoted figures regarding giving them additional seats plus ample evidence our home crowds don’t drop (considerably at least) 

i haven’t though have I, I was referencing figures I have quoted. You obviously want to clamber over the trivial point of using the word ‘few’ that’s fine, like I say I’m a bigger man than most in this conversation to admit the error and it wasn’t the best use of a word. Shoot me 

I’d counter your question with how many people on here have been willing to offer evidence or a common sense counter to my points? I count zero. Two of you have been banging on about the word few for the last hour. It shows no one is willing to challenge my figures or the facts on ticket sales and crowds. 

[Bud the Baker]

12 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Where’s your evidence for your claim? I have quoted figures regarding giving them additional seats plus ample evidence our home crowds don’t drop (considerably at least) 

i haven’t though have I, I was referencing figures I have quoted. You obviously want to clamber over the trivial point of using the word ‘few’ that’s fine, like I say I’m a bigger man than most in this conversation to admit the error and it wasn’t the best use of a word. Shoot me 

I’d counter your question with how many people on here have been willing to offer evidence or a common sense counter to my points? I count zero. Two of you have been banging on about the word few for the last hour. It shows no one is willing to challenge my figures or the facts on ticket sales and crowds. 

We had a disagreement over stats on the other thread that neither of us could conclusively prove but I argued consistently that there was no evidence of a significant increase in attendances - the part I highlighted in bold in your previous post was a lie! 

It is also still the case that you are making one argument in the SMiSA thread and another in this one - not the trivial point of misusing one word.

Your figures on ticket sales and crowds have been consistently challenged and as @DumboBud said you are just to arrogant to accept this.

Quote

The difficulty that many of us have is that you continually conflate your opinion with facts, evidence and the truth. 

Just because something is said by you over and over does not make it true, a fact or a even a balanced conclusion based on facts. 

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Bud the Baker

[BuddieinEK]

It's funny isn't it? I've asked so many people to point out where I have lied, fabricated or moved goalposts and been rebuffed practically every time. When there is something as trivial as me calling figures I had transparently quoted a 'few hundred' you and Baker are all over it, why is that? Is it because it's the first time you think you've found an error from me? 

Unlike many on here I am big enough to put my hands up, the word 'few' probably wasn't the best to reference my previous figures, I must be the anti-Christ [emoji38]

As for the rest, we have examples of them being in home ends before, we've had fans turned out, that's still a risk. Also remember we aren't talking about them being in one part of the ground, we're talking about them being in away stand + w6/7. Remember how you and Oak spent about four pages telling me I wasn't allowed to reference one stand?  Is there an additional risk needing to segregate a stand...? 

Last part is again very disappointing to see from a St Mirren fan, bad enough we get it from the bigots. I do wonder why you elude to me favouring Rangers over Celtic? Where has that come from, the majority of the chat has been comparing Celtic grounds with hardly any chat on the Sevconions...

It would be very interesting for you to explain this to me but we know you'll avoid like so much else.

Anyone else willing to go on record condoning this behaviour? I surely can't be the only one that has experience bigots (from both sides) claiming I favour the other team. 

W6 and W7 is right next to the away stand so they actually ARE in one part of the ground as opposed to opposite ends.

 

Told you before... Reading your guff hurts my brain enough without you wanting me to trawl through it again just so you can spin faster!

 

I didn't say you preferred Rangers to Celtic.

 

A bigot might take it that way, but I certainly didn't say it.

 

Nice that you are equally comfortable surrounded by either Rangers or Celtic, given how essential to Scottish football and our welfare you obviously believe they are!

[emoji15] [emoji23] [emoji56]

 

[bazil85]

4 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

We had a disagreement over stats on the other thread that neither of us could conclusively prove but I argued consistently that there was no evidence of a significant increase in attendances - the part I highlighted in bold in your previous post was a lie! 

It is also still the case that you are making one argument in the SMiSA thread and another in this one - not the trivial point of misusing one word.

Your figures on ticket sales and crowds have been consistently challenged and as @DumboBud said you are just to arrogant to accept this.

 

Yep and I simply asked you for your reasoning behind it. I have no issue with different opinions, I just asked for an explanation which you didn't provide (which is fine you don't have to)

When you say 'no significant increase in attendance' I'm not sure what you mean. I am not claiming our home crowds go up, (the evidence doesn't point to them going considerably down either) but an extra close to full stand isn't significant in attendance numbers?? 

I am categorically not making different arguments, you can hold onto the use of the word 'few' if you want even after I have put my hands up (big of you) but it doesn't change my claims one jot. 

Where have my figures on 'record season ticket sales' 'much higher average attendance' 'much increased away fans at these games' 'no clear indication of considerable reduced home fans' been challenged? I must have missed that and all the evidence to prove these points wrong...