St.Ricky Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 24 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Are you saying that you adopt a "live and let live" approach to the mass indoctrination of children? You think that is a reasonable stance to take? Read what I said and you wouldn't ask that question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 38 minutes ago, St.Ricky said: Read what I said and you wouldn't ask that question. It's a reasonable question. Like most of your posts you sit on the fence as much as humanly possible. Perhaps you think this is the way to make people like you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, oaksoft said: It's a reasonable question. Like most of your posts you sit on the fence as much as humanly possible. Perhaps you think this is the way to make people like you? Dishing out over 20,000 likes, that's his method.................sadly, and amusingly, failing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, oaksoft said: It's a reasonable question. Like most of your posts you sit on the fence as much as humanly possible. Perhaps you think this is the way to make people like you? I have never been motivated to seek approval from others Oaksoft. Why would someone do that? I do tend to be balanced in my approach to life in general with as few absolutes as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 3 hours ago, Slartibartfast said: Why would truth be "hidden" in a religious text? That makes no sense. Religious texts, in the main, tend to espouse the societal norms of the time they are written, hence, among other things, the instructions of how to get, keep and treat your slaves in the bible. It's much harder to get followers if you are advocating wholesale changes in people's lives. Anything that religion "achieves" can be achieved (usually faster, cheaper and better) by wholely secular means. If religion gets people believing things that are demonstrably not true, (and then sometimes acting due to those beliefs) then it is a bad thing. Anyway, enough of ranting for the moment. I think if you read religious texts but look at it from a purely psychological or symbolic POV, you start to see that it’s more of a map of meaning, than a set of instructions that are to be taken literally, as some would have you believe. Not sure who made the point, (possibly Oaky or Cornwall Saint) but I’d agree that organised religion causes more problems than it solves. If its used as a tool to improve someone as an individual - it’s a bit of a low blow to insist that it’s a load of bollocks and they’re misguided etc. If that’s their way of living their life, fair play to them. The problems come when people signal virtue towards others in a bid to force agreement that an opinion they hold is the absolute truth and cannot be disputed. That idea can be applied to many things though, not exclusive to religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 45 minutes ago, St.Ricky said: I have never been motivated to seek approval from others Oaksoft. Why would someone do that? . To manipulate them for personal gain. Seen it all before my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 38 minutes ago, oaksoft said: To manipulate them for personal gain. Seen it all before my friend. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 Think like a lot of older buds was brought up a Christian. Life Boy's BB. The church never connected with me. My father funeral was conducted by the Salvation Army. Never really gave it a second thought until a so called friend asked me why the Salvation army. So I asked my mother she told me they were the only Christian' organisation to be found on the front line comforting soldiers. I have a lot of respect for the Salvation army they do a lot of good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: A map of meaning? Really? Let's look at the old testament. In the first couple of books you have genocide, slavery, incest, rape and talking animals - all committed or sanctioned by the "hero" of the story. Where's the map of meaning there? I disagree with the "low blow" bit. If someone "improves" and credits it to religion then, when they realise that it's all bullshit, they should come to the realisation that the "improvement" was all down to them. That should make them a stronger, better and more confident person. Seems to me like you’re coming into this debate with a strongly held opinion that religion is complete horse shit, which is a fair opinion... For me you should still show respect to those who think differently. I suspect that a religious person would argue that their beliefs helped to make them into that stronger, better, more confident person. To suggest that they are inferior to an atheist who achieved the same goal, is just a form of signalling virtue that you’re right and they are wrong. Does it really matter who’s right? If you set a personal goal, then achieve it, that should be applauded, regardless of how you got there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Doakes said: Seems to me like you’re coming into this debate with a strongly held opinion that religion is complete horse shit, which is a fair opinion... For me you should still show respect to those who think differently. I suspect that a religious person would argue that their beliefs helped to make them into that stronger, better, more confident person. To suggest that they are inferior to an atheist who achieved the same goal, is just a form of signalling virtue that you’re right and they are wrong. Does it really matter who’s right? If you set a personal goal, then achieve it, that should be applauded, regardless of how you got there. Well said Doakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnus Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, Doakes said: Seems to me like you’re coming into this debate with a strongly held opinion that religion is complete horse shit, which is a fair opinion... For me you should still show respect to those who think differently. I suspect that a religious person would argue that their beliefs helped to make them into that stronger, better, more confident person. To suggest that they are inferior to an atheist who achieved the same goal, is just a form of signalling virtue that you’re right and they are wrong. Does it really matter who’s right? If you set a personal goal, then achieve it, that should be applauded, regardless of how you got there. Whatever gets you through the night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 49 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: Not really. I'm not claiming that anyone is inferior to anyone else, I'm claiming that some people are deluding themselves when they hold opinions that either have no decent evidence to back them up or are demonstrably wrong. "regardless of how you got there"? No - and there are lots of very obvious examples to show that that's wrong. If you think about it for a minute you'll see them. Just because an ideology/religion has some good points, it doesn't mean you should take the whole thing as a way to live your life. Just about every ideology has a few good points. Yes, every religion that I know of is complete horse shit in the respect that none of them have any good evidence to back them up. That's the reason that there are now plenty of presuppositional biblical apologists around, especially in the US - Sye Ten Bruggencate, for example - because if you presuppose that the bible is true then you don't have to provide any evidence for that and everything else just (supposedly) follows. The weird thing is I’m not even slightly religious. I just don’t see why you would be so determined to prove people are “deluded” for something that’s basically down to personal opinion/belief. If you dislike a particular religion for a particular reason, that’s fair... but to just make a sweeping statement that every religion you know of is horse shit and should be dismissed, without really making the effort to educate yourself, surely you can see the flaw in that type of thinking? It’s all subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 17 minutes ago, Doakes said: The weird thing is I’m not even slightly religious. I just don’t see why you would be so determined to prove people are “deluded” for something that’s basically down to personal opinion/belief. If you dislike a particular religion for a particular reason, that’s fair... but to just make a sweeping statement that every religion you know of is horse shit and should be dismissed, without really making the effort to educate yourself, surely you can see the flaw in that type of thinking? It’s all subjective. Intolerance exists across this divide as in others. It renders intelligent people incapable of lateral thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: I'm not having a dig at you personally. I understand that you aren't religious as you've previously said so. Personal opinion is not proof of, or evidence for, anything. People are free to believe what they want. Just don't try and tell me that any sane person has a good reason to believe in any religion. They don't, that's why they use "faith" as the reason. Most religious folk dismiss every other religion as false without knowing anything about them. Why would that be? Out of the thousands of religions that have existed, what is the chance that any particular person just happened to be born into (or to have chosen) the one true religion? What do you mean by "without really making the effort to educate yourself"? Why should there be one true religion? No reason in my mind why people can't choose, should they so wish, to worship as they wish.or not,as they wish. Edited August 14, 2019 by St.Ricky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: I'm not having a dig at you personally. I understand that you aren't religious as you've previously said so. Personal opinion is not proof of, or evidence for, anything. People are free to believe what they want. Just don't try and tell me that any sane person has a good reason to believe in any religion. They don't, that's why they use "faith" as the reason. Most religious folk dismiss every other religion as false without knowing anything about them. Why would that be? Out of the thousands of religions that have existed, what is the chance that any particular person just happened to be born into (or to have chosen) the one true religion? What do you mean by "without really making the effort to educate yourself"? Why is someone required to give evidence of something that they believe has a positive impact on their life? The evidence would surely be; How happy are they? What do their friends think of them? Are they hurting anyone? Are they imposing their belief system on others? Imagine a world where everyone is required to give evidence that their religion is the one true religion, or submit to the fact that they are misguided..... it’s a bit of a totalitarian way to look at things! Not sure I’ve got this quote right as it’s a long time since I studied, but Carl Jung said something like - “the highest ideal that someone holds, is their god”. So for someone with a very rational mind, their “god”, or ideal... would be rational thinking. For others that isn’t the case. Even the word “god” is subjective. For me you should always respect the beliefs of another person, even if you disagree with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: There can only be, at most, one true religion as they are all mutually exclusive. "No reason in my mind" - yep, we've noticed. People can choose to do whatever they want. Whether they should choose to do those things is a different matter. Laughter apart. Why should religions be mutually exclusive. All they offer are different ways of worshiping if they are monotheistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 13 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: There can only be, at most, one true religion as they are all mutually exclusive. That’s not true at all. Bit of a strange example but look at superhero’s. (Very similar concept to gods) How do you choose who’s the best one? Different people have different ideals. It’s not easy to create your own system of values. You could say - ok, I value truth, and personal responsibility for my actions. If someone reads the bible, resonates with the 10 commandments, then chooses to build their life around that, who am I to say it’s the wrong way to do things? My ideals might not be the same as theirs, but at the end of the day, they’re trying to be a good person, and I’m trying to be a good person. Surely my viewpoint and their viewpoint should be able to co-exist, without forcing them into giving evidence of why they resonated with those particular ideals in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 20 minutes ago, St.Ricky said: Laughter apart. Why should religions be mutually exclusive. All they offer are different ways of worshiping if they are monotheistic. Because most of them state clearly that only true believers in their flavour of worship makes you a "chosen one" and that all others are doomed. They cannot possibly all be correct. That is as good a definition of mutually exclusive as you'll see outside of pure mathematics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: I never said they were required to do that. I can't understand why anyone would want to hold a belief for which they have no good foundation. Whether or not a belief has a positive influence on someone's life has not impact on the truth of the belief. There's a certain poster on here that believes that it is OK for his omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god to give children cancer and stand by and watch paedophiles molest children (so he can punish them later). I've no doubt that he believes that religion has had a positive impact on his life. Jung also said "Masses are always breeding grounds of psychic epidemics." and was a pantheist who recommended spirituality as a cure for alcoholism. I respect their right to hold a belief, I don't need to respect the belief. To be fair, I more or less agree with all of what you’ve just said. There’s a lot of utter nonsense that comes from within religions, usually when they combine with politics, or people with very extreme views. I’ll always maintain that there can be benefits to religion if you use it as a tool, rather than being used by the religion as a tool. Edit: I’ll just add on to this that not all religious “teachings” should be assumed as truth. Part of what makes a human, human... is our ability to rationalise and make decisions based on the information we have available. So if you take the Quran or the Bible, both of which have some very questionable attitudes to women, and “non believers”. You should be able to weigh up what’s “right” by using your own sense of right and wrong. To follow any book literally is going down that dangerous path of extremism. Usually pushed by a political sect of the religion. Edited August 14, 2019 by Doakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 15, 2019 Report Share Posted August 15, 2019 2 hours ago, oaksoft said: Because most of them state clearly that only true believers in their flavour of worship makes you a "chosen one" and that all others are doomed. They cannot possibly all be correct. That is as good a definition of mutually exclusive as you'll see outside of pure mathematics. I reject that argument is what I am saying. I see no reason to argue that there should be one which is regarded as the one true religion although adherents of many might argue that theirs is "the one". My take is each to their own or none as the case may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 15, 2019 Report Share Posted August 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Slartibartfast said: 2 hours ago, St.Ricky said: Laughter apart. Why should religions be mutually exclusive. All they offer are different ways of worshiping if they are monotheistic. Why "should" they be or why "are" they? Slart. Why are they is easily answered. That's not what I am saying. I care nothing that one, several or all suggest that they might be the one, true way to God. Assume for a moment that there is a god. Why would it matter which way believers chose to recognise God's existence or to celebrate it? It doesn't to me. I have friends from various Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Sikh as well as Hindu religions. Its fine by me that they worship in their own way. I don't feel threatened. I see their religions as being of equal value. My wife and I happily go to events organised locally by the Church of Scotland, Baptist and Catholic Church and are welcomed. One of our friends is a Humanist celebrant. y judgement, I would make of them would be based on their actions as individuals and towards others. Just as I would with non believers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted August 15, 2019 Report Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, St.Ricky said: I reject that argument is what I am saying. I see no reason to argue that there should be one which is regarded as the one true religion although adherents of many might argue that theirs is "the one". My take is each to their own or none as the case may be. It's not the adherents who are claiming their religion is the one. It is the religious texts themselves. They can't all be right because all of these texts say only their religion is correct. They are mutually exclusive. Edited August 15, 2019 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted August 15, 2019 Report Share Posted August 15, 2019 5 hours ago, Doakes said: I’ll just add on to this that not all religious “teachings” should be assumed as truth. Part of what makes a human, human... is our ability to rationalise and make decisions based on the information we have available. So if you take the Quran or the Bible, both of which have some very questionable attitudes to women, and “non believers”. You should be able to weigh up what’s “right” by using your own sense of right and wrong. To follow any book literally is going down that dangerous path of extremism. Usually pushed by a political sect of the religion. Ideally yes, that is what should happen. In reality religion fills a hole in the lives of people who are vulnerable and under those circumstances people tend not to critically evaluate to the extent you describe. The message from each of those religions is very clear. You believe all of this stuff and get saved or you believe part of it and end up condemned. That is the control bit right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted August 15, 2019 Report Share Posted August 15, 2019 2 hours ago, St.Ricky said: That's not what I am saying. I care nothing that one, several or all suggest that they might be the one, true way to God. Yes but in fairness, you are not the target market. You are neither poor, young nor vulnerable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 15, 2019 Report Share Posted August 15, 2019 1 hour ago, oaksoft said: Yes but in fairness, you are not the target market. You are neither poor, young nor vulnerable. I have been poor and young. I have always refused to be vulnerable. I have often argued against organised religion, not because of the values or beliefs but because of the manner in which is used. State and religion are best kept separate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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