BIG BEN Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Sent mine away. Hope it goes through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint in exile Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I think it is a shame that the online debate got lost in the mudslinging behaviour of some aliases. There are clearly some supporters who are swithering and there is an important debate around genuine concerns that should have taken place. I think for genuinely concerned fans like you it would be well worth taken up the open offer to meet with Richie Rich on a one to one basis. You can discuss your concerns openly with him, without it being hi-jacked by overly defensive CIC supporters or the mudslinging not so magnificent seven. You will get a much greater insight into the CIC and it will also be an opportunity for you to express what sort of club you would like to see in the future. The offer of the meeting is a great opportunity to get an insight into the workings of the club as well as the proposed workings of the CIC. Well worth a wee bit of your time. I'm swithering. I support the CIC in principle, but I'm not fully clear yet as to what we (the supporters) or I myself get for our hard earned. I can't make the public meetings cos I live over the water, and the same would apply to a one to one with RA. Could someone (not just the happy clappers or the naysayers) do a brief one pager of pro's and con's for those of us who still need some convincing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) No I dont have privy to anything that is not already out there. The CiC offer is the only game in town so its the only one I can consider and its the only one that is allowing the fans to be involved. The selling consortium rejected the other offers so its not a point for any further discussion and was irrelevant to the supporters anyway in that they had no influence one way or another. If the consortium had accepted another deal then we would just have had to accept it as well. No discussion. No debate. No involvement. That's as maybe but it doesn't fall into the " the CiC looks on paper to be the best deal for everyone concerned" category. I don't know if the other offers are still on the table. In a way I hope they are in case the CiC, which is dependant on many fronts, falls flat. The objective of the CiC is very admirable - helping the local community as well as the club - and many who have got to know RA vouch for his enthusiasm and ideas and believe him to be honest. Any outstanding issues anyone may have can be addressed personally to the man in a one-to-one meeting. Not many take overs would offer that level of personal discussion. Theory is wonderful and no one can doubt RA's commitment in seeing it through but my doubts lie in his ultimate goal being in the best interest of the club at least in equal part to the community. At the end of the day you either buy into a dream or you dont. For any dream to be realised an amount of faith is required. Div alluded to the need to keep momentum going. In any situation you have to make a decision then back it to the hilt until you find further challenges then you review and change accordingly. Doing nothing but fretting on the sidelines creates negative energy and nothing changes. It appears that you have indeed "bought into the dream" but, unfortunately, my faith has withered somewhat as the debate continues I suggest that anyone who has unresolved questions either posts them on the Q&A thread or takes up RA's open offer to meet. Make a decision and if its a yes then go for it with enthusiasm. Not so much different questions as much as wary of the answers I'm afraid.Perhaps hearing it from the horses mouth rather than reading protracted claims and counter claims would move me in the other direction but, until then, call me a sceptic. Edited June 1, 2011 by stlucifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Got a meeting with 'Yul' lined up? Nah I'm at a Sports Enterprise conference which has been fascinating so far. Loads of information and I'll need to get my head around it but it's fascinating to hear the negative comments around the 10000hours CIC from some of the football delegates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I'm swithering. I support the CIC in principle, but I'm not fully clear yet as to what we (the supporters) or I myself get for our hard earned. I can't make the public meetings cos I live over the water, and the same would apply to a one to one with RA. Could someone (not just the happy clappers or the naysayers) do a brief one pager of pro's and con's for those of us who still need some convincing? I would be happy to outline the pro's sadly no sane person has come forward to present the con's. It has mostly been one hysterical claim after another with no basis in fact. I also think that the pro's are also down to what each individual would like for the club. Some like the community angle, some are just interested in improvements on the pitch. My view is that there is something for everyone, but the one to ones are definitely the best way to address both your hopes and your concerns. When I set up my meeting with REA we gabbed for about 30 minutes on the phone. Pretty sure lawfud has also had a lengthy telephone call with REA. I am sure he would be open to a telephone call with you if you drop him an email through the 10,000 hours site - cannae remember the email alias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds10 Posted June 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Nah I'm at a Sports Enterprise conference which has been fascinating so far. Loads of information and I'll need to get my head around it but it's fascinating to hear the negative comments around the 10000hours CIC from some of the football delegates. Got any time to elaborate on what those are? Too much focus on the community or some other issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I'm swithering. I support the CIC in principle, but I'm not fully clear yet as to what we (the supporters) or I myself get for our hard earned. I can't make the public meetings cos I live over the water, and the same would apply to a one to one with RA. Could someone (not just the happy clappers or the naysayers) do a brief one pager of pro's and con's for those of us who still need some convincing? Right, off of the top of my head, cons... - The membership group will spend too long debating "how much goes on the park" ahead of anything else. - Some members will still not trust anyone who isn't a lifelong Saints fan. - At times when money is tight it'll be up to members, US, to provide that wee bit of float or even the necessary extra. - It's not cool. By that, I mean millions aren't going to suddenly appeal and it will be a lot of work (obviously each individual is free to decide how much to take on). - There will be a steep learning curve. - There will be a lot of reading and understanding to be done around a lot of the debates. - With the deal going in to June, there won't be much time to work on next seasons budget (but that's also a pro in my eyes...I'll explain at the end). - If you're on the CIC Exec board or the club board then, frankly, your knob's on the block...not sure how that applies to females of course...and you go from being a fan to being a target. The budget is a pro because the club is run on a tight budget and playing a watching brief for one season is a lot better than tinkering with very little understanding or fighting over ever avenue of expenditure. Seeing how things run will also allow members to understand how any member driven funding could be initiated, controlled and applied. Finally, it also allows time to research the past and develop financial models to look at and debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) Got any time to elaborate on what those are? Too much focus on the community or some other issues? Nah, the negative comments centred around an opinion that 10000 hours were doing things back to front in trying to build a membership before owning the club and I can see exactly where they are coming from. It's become pretty clear to me that there is an element of danger in the project in that a community football club who might be interested in joining can't really be promised access to the areas of the club that would interest them until an elected football board is in place. That then holds back the membership numbers because an MOU can't be put in place and that then leads to a situation where those who may well have the best skills to take the football club forward wouldn't have a membership that would allow them either to stand as a candidate, or to be involved in the election of a candidate to represent their interests. The main criticism was coming from a guy who was there from Partick Thistle Community who are investigating whether the CIC route, the SEN route, or some other routes would suit them best. Since leaving the conference I've had a phone conversation with RA and he's agreed it is back to front compared to the likes of Clyde, Stenhousmuir or Partick Thistle but that it was because at those clubs it was their current boards who are looking to convert, whilst at St Mirren the current board is looking to sell and the CIC is the buyer. The conference was a real eye opener though. Some of the projects in place are fantastic and the opportunity for income is absolutely massive. Spartans was one of the case studies and it was explained that they are tendering and winning NHS contracts where they deliver dental hygiene education to school children using football skills to teach them how to brush their teeth. They also have secured public sector funding for an adult literacy NVQ course that they run within the club and money for simply opening up their academy free of charge to local kids for a couple of hours after school so they can come and play football in a safe area without having to dodge cars and buses. However those who think that this income can then be diverted into the St Mirren playing squad are wide of the mark IMO. This is going to be far more about making the club much larger, increasing the involvement of the club within the community in every way possible. The benefit to St Mirren will come more and more of the community is drawn into to the football club. Edited June 1, 2011 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 - If you're on the CIC Exec board or the club board then, frankly, your knob's on the block...not sure how that applies to females of course...and you go from being a fan to being a target. Absolutely. IMO amongst some of the pro CIC campaigners there is an unrealistic expectation which isn't the fault of RA or 10000 hours. The problem lies, bizarrely in the somewhat light touch regulation that is in place. It makes it extremely difficult to pin point what the CIC will do because the possibilities are genuinely limitless. However there IS going to be a need to focus very much on the community and what it needs and wants, and in trying to find a way to deliver. I guess that is probably why there is an elected CIC board and a separate elected football board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds10 Posted June 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Nah, the negative comments centred around an opinion that 10000 hours were doing things back to front in trying to build a membership before owning the club and I can see exactly where they are coming from. Thanks Stuart. The back to front thing will surely sort itself out if the funding and the deal fo through. I don't see how else 10000Hours could have convinced the funding bodies that there was sufficient interest unless they had a good basis for claiming the membership levels will be high enough. There is obviously a lot to be learned from the likes of Spartans. How do you brush your teeth with a football? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Thanks Stuart. The back to front thing will surely sort itself out if the funding and the deal fo through. I don't see how else 10000Hours could have convinced the funding bodies that there was sufficient interest unless they had a good basis for claiming the membership levels will be high enough. There is obviously a lot to be learned from the likes of Spartans. How do you brush your teeth with a football? They showed pictures of what they did. Absolutely brilliant with tooth shaped cones and football drills that involved dribbling in between the cones (flossing between your teeth), and flicking the ball up the back of the cone (brushing the back of your teeth as well as the front). An element of football skill whilst delivering the message of brushing your teeth properly. They also had the club mascot do tours of the primary schools. I wrote down the results of the course too which proved they delivered. 80% of the kids retained the information from the course when quizzed about it several months later. 90% of the kids that attended the programme who weren't previously registered with a dentist were now registered - and many of their family members were registered too. The schools received and passed on feedback from parents who had commented that the flicking the back of the teeth message meant they had white toothpaste splatters all over their mirrors - another indicator the message hit home. Anyway, the back to front thing. There probably wasn't any other way to do it at St Mirren, but it's still potentially a problem in the making. I keep coming back to juvenile football, that's the area I deal with so I apologise in advance, but I feel passionately that the people running those clubs are probably best placed to offer an important input particularly on the elected football board. Of course some guys running those clubs are thick as shite and would be a complete waste of space, but there's others who will have developed their kids club from a base level, achieved SFA Quality Mark status, raised funds, probably operated successfully as a not for profit company without public sector funding, and possibly even as a Sports Enterprise Network. However if those clubs can't put in place an MOU until the football board is elected the CIC will miss out on some relevant skills from the sector of the community that most closely fits the brand. And if the board that is elected is full of people who can't see the bigger picture then the opportunity to bring those skills in might never happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds10 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 And if the board that is elected is full of people who can't see the bigger picture then the opportunity to bring those skills in might never happen again. The football toothbrush sounds like a really good idea. Might try that out on my own kids actually! I can see you point about how the CIC may miss out on attracting people with experience running youth football. I definitely think this is one of the areas in which the CIC will most likely want to get involved. For a start it's much easier to for fans of the football team to see the direct link and ways the club could benefit other than finance. However you may find that some of the individual members might have experience in youth football. And individual members will comprise half of the elected board. I do think that a lot of the people who will go the extra mile to really get involved with the CIC will be people who appreciate the importance of the community angle. People who are simply interested in St Mirren won't want to spend large amounts of their time discussing aspects of the CIC that have nothing to do with the club. If you take the CIC idea seriously, it's pretty obvious that in order for the club to benefit in the long run you have to take the chance to maximise community involvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds10 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) Posted this over on the Official Forum too and have asked people not to double vote. Link Thanks very much for that Kenny! I imagine most of the votes are now in. The official site looks a lot more sceptical about the CIC than we are here with only 43% of people who pledged actually having sent off their direct debit. Adding the scores together Yes, it's in the post 66 (54%) Not yet, but I'm planning on getting round to it 36 (30%) No, I've changed my mind 20 (16%) Sample size is about 15% of the people who have pledged for the CIC. From these combined polls it predicts that the CIC should have received roughly 435 direct debits so far. There are another planning 237 people out there planning on signing up. And that there are 132 or so people who don't plan to sign up. Having said that I think it's quite possible that the people who post on here regularly are maybe more likely to be in favour of the CIC than other fans in general. And a bit worryingly, although the sample size is a bit small, if you believe the figures from the official site there would only be 352 people signed up. Edited September 21, 2011 by ds10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) Ds10: I think all it shows is that on both main St Mirren forums, no matter the amount of people with accounts, there's only a small group of posters who are the 'regulars' and who do most of the posting. The forums are great fun and a valuable resource - but as a 'regular' on both forums myself - we really aren't representative of the Saints support on anything. Until very recently, when RA started a Q&A thread on the feeshal' forum - there was hardly any discussion about the CIC at all. All we need is a counter on the 10000hours website showing hard fast DD forms received. Edited June 2, 2011 by pozbaird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Ds10: I think all it shows is that on both main St Mirren forums, no matter the amount of people with accounts, there's only a small group of posters who are the 'regulars' and who do most of the posting. The forums are great fun and a valuable resource - but as a 'regular' on both forums myself - we really aren't representative of the Saints support on anything. Until very recently, when RA started a Q&A thread on the feeshal' forum - there was hardly any discussion about the CIC at all. All we need is a counter on the 10000hours website showing hard fast DD forms received. This is very true. There are a shed load of Buds that I have met who love the web site and are big fans of me. However, they don't feel that they can join in on the forum due to worries that it might impact their professional status in the real world. There are also a few shy retiring types, but the vast majority just don't like Faraway Saint. I am sure that Div will be able to confirm a ratio of hits versus members and then members versus posting members. You also need to factor in some dafty like animal using all their aliases to vote that they have changed their mind to skew the numbers. That being said, I think 10% would have been a fair drop out. However, I suspect that will be more than made up for by the offline members who weren't party to the initial online process. I reckon the numbers will be very healthy in relation to the target. It would be good to get some form of acknowledgement that the d.d. form has been recieved though. I sent mines to the 10000 hrs office by ordinary post being a miser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 This is very true. There are a shed load of Buds that I have met who love the web site and are big fans of me. However, they don't feel that they can join in on the forum due to worries that it might impact their professional status in the real world. There are also a few shy retiring types, but the vast majority just don't like Faraway Saint. I am sure that Div will be able to confirm a ratio of hits versus members and then members versus posting members. You also need to factor in some dafty like animal using all their aliases to vote that they have changed their mind to skew the numbers. That being said, I think 10% would have been a fair drop out. However, I suspect that will be more than made up for by the offline members who weren't party to the initial online process. I reckon the numbers will be very healthy in relation to the target. It would be good to get some form of acknowledgement that the d.d. form has been recieved though. I sent mines to the 10000 hrs office by ordinary post being a miser. Aside from the leafleting at the final home game of the season, has enough been done to engage with non-forum users? Using my best mate Michael as an example - he's the same age as me, he's internet savvy, been going to the games since 1975 - but he doesn't bother with the fan forums, isn't remotely interested. He'll look at the main website front page once every so often, but that's it. He knows little about the detail of the CIC proposal other than what I relay to him myself. Is Fergie's old loudhailer still around? Maybe we need RA to tour round the locale shouting the odds from the back of a pick-up truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Aside from the leafleting at the final home game of the season, has enough been done to engage with non-forum users? Using my best mate Michael as an example - he's the same age as me, he's internet savvy, been going to the games since 1975 - but he doesn't bother with the fan forums, isn't remotely interested. He'll look at the main website front page once every so often, but that's it. He knows little about the detail of the CIC proposal other than what I relay to him myself. Is Fergie's old loudhailer still around? Maybe we need RA to tour round the locale shouting the odds from the back of a pick-up truck. Yip. I was out with a load of boys middle of last week, watching the Wales v Scotland game. One of the boys is a big Saints fan, goes to all the home games, is very much internet savvy but never feels the need to visit any websites related to the club in any shape or form. He knew absolutely nothing about the CIC, didn't even know it was happening. He posted his direct debit form the very next day though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds10 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Ds10: I think all it shows is that on both main St Mirren forums, no matter the amount of people with accounts, there's only a small group of posters who are the 'regulars' and who do most of the posting. The forums are great fun and a valuable resource - but as a 'regular' on both forums myself - we really aren't representative of the Saints support on anything. Until very recently, when RA started a Q&A thread on the feeshal' forum - there was hardly any discussion about the CIC at all. All we need is a counter on the 10000hours website showing hard fast DD forms received. I imagine that your exactly right about the people who post here not being representative of Saints fans at large. My thoughts also. However we now have answers from 10% of all the people who have pledged which is not an insignificant number. I set up the poll not simply to work out the number of people that would be joining the CIC, but mainly to get an idea of the thought o the people on here now they had some time to think about it. I'm not really convinced that 10000Hours would think that a counter is necessarily in the best interests of 10000Hours at this moment in time. If they have less than the 300 actually signed up it would simply look like it was failing, but they would be able to put a more positive spin on it to the funders I imagine. Also irrespective of the amount of direct debits that they have received they will be open to question about why so many people have pulled out already. (e.g. even if they had received 500 direct debits out of 700 you'd get people saying that 'How come 200 people have pulled out in the first month or so?') Not something I imagine you might want before a critical meeting with a potential funder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Ds10: Apologies if it sounded like I was dismissive of the poll, I'm not - it was a sound idea, I still wouldn't put too much emphasis on the result though. I can see why a DD returns counter might not be a good idea, but at the end of the day, it is something those of us who are backing the plan will need to know - how many individual, community, and corporate members have actually come through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds10 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) Apologies if it sounded like I was dismissive of the poll, I'm not - it was a sound idea, I still wouldn't put too much emphasis on the result though. I can see why a DD returns counter might not be a good idea, but at the end of the day, it is something those of us who are backing the plan will need to know - how many individual, community, and corporate members have actually come through. I completely see your point regarding the interpretation of the result. It's definitely a poll of a highly selected subset of fans/potential investors. I'm sure that the information on membership numbers will be released in the near future. We will definitely all need to know! Also I agree that's there is not enough being done to spread the word to people outside the forums. As you and Div point out there must be plenty of fans who know practically nothing about this idea. I suppose widely advertising the CIC though would cost money and if they can get it off the ground with recruiting enough members from the internet forums then that is probably the easiest option. Once it's up and running it may be easier to spread the word and recruit additional members then. In some respects I imagine using internet forums like this is an example of targeted marketing as a lot of the people who use this on a regular basis are probably the kind of people who are more likely to sign up for the CIC. Edited June 2, 2011 by ds10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Zo Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Yip! DD signed and handed into the club today. Mon the cic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Yip! DD signed and handed into the club today. Mon the cic! We will be one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 We will be one One CIC to rule them all, One CIC to find them, One CIC to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Ralston where the Shareholders lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltcoatsbuddie Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 i signed up ,but have not recieved anything ,how do you get a form? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 i signed up ,but have not recieved anything ,how do you get a form? www.10000hours.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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