reborn saint Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Looks like the expert recommendation is 'don't buy.' The non-expert (me) says the same. Buy RBS instead. Am no selling yet! Awe shit!.....santander !.....How did that happen?? Edited October 12, 2012 by reborn saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desperately Seeking Susans Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/threats-silence-intimidation-rangers-fans/2873 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Never thought It would happen......But it looks more likely now......Is this really the end?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted October 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Never thought It would happen......But it looks more likely now......Is this really the end?? No. We're still in the middle of the end. After the Bears fall (for the 3rd time!) for a Spiv Moonbeams scenario and literally buy into it, accusing everyone (but not the Scottish media cos they've stayed silent) of slagging Chico, their latest Messiah... And after they've showered him with their £500 for a share of whatever snake-oil he's selling.... then they'll have to lift themselves up and start all over again with whoever the next naughty boy Messiah pitches up with his (or her) new Moonbeams. Until the FTTT reports and any judgement arising therefrom is handed down, and until Lord Hodge gives his take on the dual contracts and until any criminal/football punishment proceedings are undertaken with regard to tax cheating and football remuneration frauds... until the Club or Company or Menage called something like R*ngers has been treated in the way any company or football club would expect in our society and until it has faced the music for its misdemeanors.... Not until ALL that happens and its fans have begun to realise how much they are pariahs and their Club had to be called to account, there will be no ending for them. And therefore no chance of rebirth as a club and set of fans welcome in decent football company. But ICBINR WILL someday be a decent club with decent fans, I hope. I also hope the decent Bear fans take any opportunity to rebuild their club in the right way, but I won't hold my breath. Whatever... it WILL not be dead forever.... The more I think about it, the more that Zombie allusion works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 No. We're still in the middle of the end. After the Bears fall (for the 3rd time!) for a Spiv Moonbeams scenario and literally buy into it, accusing everyone (but not the Scottish media cos they've stayed silent) of slagging Chico, their latest Messiah... And after they've showered him with their £500 for a share of whatever snake-oil he's selling.... then they'll have to lift themselves up and start all over again with whoever the next naughty boy Messiah pitches up with his (or her) new Moonbeams. Until the FTTT reports and any judgement arising therefrom is handed down, and until Lord Hodge gives his take on the dual contracts and until any criminal/football punishment proceedings are undertaken with regard to tax cheating and football remuneration frauds... until the Club or Company or Menage called something like R*ngers has been treated in the way any company or football club would expect in our society and until it has faced the music for its misdemeanors.... Not until ALL that happens and its fans have begun to realise how much they are pariahs and their Club had to be called to account, there will be no ending for them. And therefore no chance of rebirth as a club and set of fans welcome in decent football company. But ICBINR WILL someday be a decent club with decent fans, I hope. I also hope the decent Bear fans take any opportunity to rebuild their club in the right way, but I won't hold my breath. Whatever... it WILL not be dead forever.... The more I think about it, the more that Zombie allusion works. I mean no share Issue....No Sevco.....No Rangers ....coming to a cinema near you M'Laud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 I mean no share Issue....No Sevco.....No Rangers ....coming to a cinema near you M'Laud. I think with out audited accounts its will be very difficult for even he AIM cowboys to allow a share issue. With audited accounts I think it would be very difficult to issue a share flotation. With out a share issue and raising a few bob before running of into the sun set. what is the point. I have not heard there will be no share issue but it would not surprise me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 I'm not convinced Rangers will receive any further punishment in the way of penalties. They might go into liquidation again which would be really serious, possibly even terminal but it the First-tier Tribunal goes against them you can't get blood out of a stone. BOD can certainly throw a spanner in the works if they decide that Duff & Phelps made a bollocks of the sale. If that all comes unstuck and BOD take over, it will be interesting to see what happens. The Rangers might not have a ground or training facility. We can't have it both ways. If The Rangers is a new club with no history, then have they not walked away from all their debts? I'm not sure further penalties can be applied against the club. The position with individuals is different. Murray, Smith, McCoist and best of all Ogilvie must be shitting themselves if they had EBTs. Whyte probably didn't but he'll probably get it in the neck for withholding tax and National Insurance. Players might get away with it because it probably won't be too hard to convince the authorities that most of them were too thick to understand what an EBT was. Do the Scottish Football authorities want to punish Rangers any further? Do UEFA or FIFA? I doubt it. If Green doesn't make a real horlicks of it, I repeat that it might all come down to BDO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) I'm not convinced Rangers will receive any further punishment in the way of penalties. They might go into liquidation again which would be really serious, possibly even terminal but it the First-tier Tribunal goes against them you can't get blood out of a stone. BOD can certainly throw a spanner in the works if they decide that Duff & Phelps made a bollocks of the sale. If that all comes unstuck and BOD take over, it will be interesting to see what happens. The Rangers might not have a ground or training facility. We can't have it both ways. If The Rangers is a new club with no history, then have they not walked away from all their debts? I'm not sure further penalties can be applied against the club. The position with individuals is different. Murray, Smith, McCoist and best of all Ogilvie must be shitting themselves if they had EBTs. Whyte probably didn't but he'll probably get it in the neck for withholding tax and National Insurance. Players might get away with it because it probably won't be too hard to convince the authorities that most of them were too thick to understand what an EBT was. Do the Scottish Football authorities want to punish Rangers any further? Do UEFA or FIFA? I doubt it. If Green doesn't make a real horlicks of it, I repeat that it might all come down to BDO. Can't argue with any of your points......One thing I thought would NEVER happen Is for an application from Lord Hodge! to the Court for a retraction of the sale to Charles Green...Some strong rumours this is about to happen and If so It's game over! Edited October 16, 2012 by reborn saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Can't argue with any of your points......One thing I thought would NEVER happen Is for an application from LNS to the Court for a retraction of the sale to Charles Green...Some strong rumours this is about to happen and If so It's game over! Who are LNS in this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Who are LNS in this? Oops! wrong one..lol...talking about him on another site! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Oops! wrong one..lol...talking about him on another site! Fixed now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qarsaan Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Why is this still going on? I really wish it was over, once and for all, 'Rangers,' 'Newco,' 'THE Rangers' or whatever they choose to call them should have been gone months ago, Shower of crooks and still going on. I write this as a sports fan, and UK citizen. People should face up to reality. They cheated us; you, me and every other British citizen. Goodbye to them. They or their survivors can be allowed keep their ill-gotten gains; titles, etc, because they mean nothing now.. But they should be made to give all their assets (any left?) to pay back what hey have stolen from the public and then they should be closed them down. If that hurts the pocket of Scottish football, then that's too bad. Pride and integrity are more important. Edited October 16, 2012 by Qarsaan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted October 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) I'm not convinced Rangers will receive any further punishment in the way of penalties. They might go into liquidation again which would be really serious, possibly even terminal but it the First-tier Tribunal goes against them you can't get blood out of a stone. BOD can certainly throw a spanner in the works if they decide that Duff & Phelps made a bollocks of the sale. If that all comes unstuck and BOD take over, it will be interesting to see what happens. The Rangers might not have a ground or training facility. We can't have it both ways. If The Rangers is a new club with no history, then have they not walked away from all their debts? I'm not sure further penalties can be applied against the club. The position with individuals is different. Murray, Smith, McCoist and best of all Ogilvie must be shitting themselves if they had EBTs. Whyte probably didn't but he'll probably get it in the neck for withholding tax and National Insurance. Players might get away with it because it probably won't be too hard to convince the authorities that most of them were too thick to understand what an EBT was. Do the Scottish Football authorities want to punish Rangers any further? Do UEFA or FIFA? I doubt it. If Green doesn't make a real horlicks of it, I repeat that it might all come down to BDO. Unlike reborn saint, I CAN argue with some of your points. PUNISHED ENOUGH? punish them any further? FUXAKE.... There has been NO PUNISHMENT yet. Get that into your heads and keep it there. A totally newco (once called SEVCO) IS lucky to be in sfl3 because there has been bending of the rules to put ICBINR in there. All that has happened is that Rangers went into administraion. Thus the ORIGINAL (potentially criminal - certainly non-tax-paying) club no longer can be fit to play in SPL. It is bust - no one punished the entity. The greedy cheats did it to themselves, happily robbing all UK taxpayers as they went their merry way. So, it might not be possible to get blood from a stone - for the creditors - and the hospitals, armies etc that HMRC funds, but the perepetrators of any criminality CAN be pursued. THAT is where the real fun n games will start for me. Murray, Ogilvie and all those who got EBT payments - will they have to be paid back and why were some like G Souness getting EBTs whilst managing other clubs? Who just happened to pay Rangers big bucks in transfer fees for diddies... allegedly. And as for us We can't have it both ways.?!?!? It's not WE to whom that should be addressed but to Green, owner of Newco/Sevco/ICBITNR who believes and espouses that belief that he bought the history and that he now owns the ongoing ICBINR. That history includes the debts and liabilities. Their problem - not ours. Sigh.... Edited October 16, 2012 by bluto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Bluto's right, if they are the same club and only some imaginary holding company went into receivership then the club is liable to pay back all the stolen prize money gained by cheating AND to compensate the clubs they cheated for loss of earnings. That would amount to a totally huge sum of money. How many shirt sales and added income might St Mirren have gained if we had won the league cup say. And would Gus have had a parting with the club if he had won it, So not only clubs but also individuals could claim compensation. Could get really messy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Unlike reborn saint, I CAN argue with some of your points. FUXAKE.... There has been NO PUNISHMENT yet. Get that into your heads and keep it there. A totally newco (once called SEVCO) IS lucky to be in sfl3 because there has been bending of the rules to put ICBINR in there. All that has happened is that Rangers went into administraion. Thus the ORIGINAL (potentially criminal - certainly non-tax-paying) club no longer can be fit to play in SPL. It is bust - no one punished the entity. The greedy cheats did it to themselves, happily robbing all UK taxpayers as they went their merry way. So, it might not be possible to get blood from a stone - for the creditors - and the hospitals, armies etc that HMRC funds, but the perepetrators of any criminality CAN be pursued. THAT is where the real fun n games will start for me. Murray, Ogilvie and all those who got EBT payments - will they have to be paid back and why were some like G Souness getting EBTs whilst managing other clubs? Who just happened to pay Rangers big bucks in transfer fees for diddies... allegedly. And as for us We can't have it both ways.?!?!? It's not WE to whom that should be addressed but to Green, owner of Newco/Sevco/ICBITNR who believes and espouses that belief that he bought the history and that he now owns the ongoing ICBINR. That history includes the debts and liabilities. Their problem - not ours. Sigh.... Calm down,dear. Calm down. All this shouting and screaming will make you come over all queer. Rangers were punished, albeit reluctantly, in terms of the SPL's rules. They ended up in Div.3, there is the transfer embargo, no participation in Europe for three seasons and they were fined a couple of hundred grand, I think. I can't be bothered looking it up. I've never, ever said that that was punishment enough. What I have said and what I believe is that there is no will on the part of the football authorities anywhere, to impose further penalties. You can shout until you're blue in the face that there has been no punishment. I disagree. The position with regard to those involved with Rangers who cheated and lied is entirely different and maybe you failed to read my bit about them shitting themselves in your bout of righteous indignation. Murray must be public enemy number one in this regard and when his day in court comes as it surely must, they will throw everything at him including the kitchen sink. Possibly everyone who served on the board at Ibrox will be in court too. Some of them assuredly will and I hope Ogilvie is held as culpable as Murray. Whyte will be in trouble for non-payment of tax and NI but I think he's in the clear so far as EBTs are concerned. Ticketus is down to him by the looks of things. Green is a clown and nothing but a minor distraction. We know he is a professional chancer and he might come out of this saga intact. His reputation is crap to begin with. I say he might come out of this OK as like it or not his purchase of the dregs of Rangers appears to be perfectly legal. BDO hopefully will see that over-ruled but Green & Co. will be recompensed to some degree. Further down the pile we have players. It seems any who are proved to have used an EBT will plead ignorance but we know that ignorance of the law is not an acceptable excuse. I would love to see some of those parasitical agents being caught up in this. If a player at Ibrox earned £5K per week for five years and £3K of that was legitimate and £2K. was wrapped up in an EBT, then he would have failed to pay tax on over £500,000. 40% tax comes to over £200,000K which the tax man will be looking for plus penalty if the player is deemed culpable. It appears that many Rangers players earned way in excess of that but it's impossible to guess how much may be recoverable. It's suggested Messrs. Smith and McCoist may have enjoyed EBTs. If so I imagine their potential tax liabilities would be huge. It's all in the melting pot. Rangers seem to argue that their EBTs were legitimate. I can't see it but we should soon know. If the sale to Green unravels it might well be the end of Rangers and that could happen anyway under the governance of the asshole Green. We really don't know how much debt Rangers have repaid and the position with other clubs owed money is not clear. If other clubs complain again to UEFA or FIFA, that could rattle their cage. To summarise my view, if Rangers receive draconian punishment then hell slap it into them. I'll shed no crocodile tears. I expect a stack of Rangers' former employees, staff and directors to be in court and unfortunately it might include Steven Thompson who was named in the press as having had an EBT. The shell of the old Rangers which now exists will, I believe, probably just about survive although it might be touch and go. I don't believe they will be punished much more if at all. No point shouting about it,Bluto, or giving off any more of your trademark sighs. Whatever will be, will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted October 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Calm down,dear. Calm down. All this shouting and screaming will make you come over all queer. Rangers were punished, albeit reluctantly, in terms of the SPL's rules. They ended up in Div.3, there is the transfer embargo, no participation in Europe for three seasons and they were fined a couple of hundred grand, I think. I can't be bothered looking it up. I've never, ever said that that was punishment enough. What I have said and what I believe is that there is no will on the part of the football authorities anywhere, to impose further penalties. You can shout until you're blue in the face that there has been no punishment. I disagree. First off, I'll never be BLUE in the face.... Rangers were NOT punished. Going out of business was a simple result of the organisation going broke, a direct result of their financial mismanagement (to use a euphemism). That isn't punishment. Teams that are in that self-induced situation just don't get to play in Europe - that is the Uefa Rules, that is NOT punishment. The transfer ban and paltry fine was in relation to only one year's criminality - their non-payment of more than £13million in taxes and NI when Whyte took over. In that year alone, they defrauded us all of £13m and were fined £160,000. And you seem to think they have already been punished enough? How about the Big Tax Bill... in comparison? Punishment is yet to come for their main indiscretions. If you don't think so, then I guess the analogy you favour is of letting a burglar off scot-free cos he got caught and everyone knows about it and he has not been able to get back into your house again. Let's all forget it happened, no need for redress nor punishment. Getting into SFL3 was a bonus for a new club with no history, accounts, no and no known assets - going directly against all previous practice for Scottish football. They ARE 2 distinct entities, despite the attempt to distort the rules in their favour... and it looks like that will be back to bite ALL of scottish fitba in the bum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 The great thing is that even if they are not the same club. They can still be liable for oldco's misdemeanors as a result of inheriting their SFA share. It's a bit like buying a player with a suspension hanging over them. they can play for the new club but will have to serve a suspension. Only much much bigger and potentualy big enough to close the B*stards down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted October 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Craig Whyte talks to the Beeb. This morning. More to follow...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Craig Whyte talks to the Beeb. This morning. More to follow...! http://www.bbc.co.uk...w-west-19976991 Sorry Bluto same link. roll up bears hand your cash over to honest chas. Edited October 17, 2012 by insaintee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 First off, I'll never be BLUE in the face.... Rangers were NOT punished. Going out of business was a simple result of the organisation going broke, a direct result of their financial mismanagement (to use a euphemism). That isn't punishment. Teams that are in that self-induced situation just don't get to play in Europe - that is the Uefa Rules, that is NOT punishment. The transfer ban and paltry fine was in relation to only one year's criminality - their non-payment of more than £13million in taxes and NI when Whyte took over. In that year alone, they defrauded us all of £13m and were fined £160,000. And you seem to think they have already been punished enough? How about the Big Tax Bill... in comparison? Punishment is yet to come for their main indiscretions. If you don't think so, then I guess the analogy you favour is of letting a burglar off scot-free cos he got caught and everyone knows about it and he has not been able to get back into your house again. Let's all forget it happened, no need for redress nor punishment. Getting into SFL3 was a bonus for a new club with no history, accounts, no and no known assets - going directly against all previous practice for Scottish football. They ARE 2 distinct entities, despite the attempt to distort the rules in their favour... and it looks like that will be back to bite ALL of scottish fitba in the bum. So UEFA's rule isn't a punishment? What the hell is it then? A pat on the back? But anyway, where and when did I ever suggest Rangers had been punished enough? Never mind answering for I'm sure you know bloody well that I didn't. They haven't been punished nearly enough and I think they should be. Despite everything you have said I still don't think they will be. Individuals will be and as I've said probably a lot of them. No point repeating it all. One thing we can agree on is that when the truth comes out, probably in court, it should be terrific entertainment. Pity it looks as if it will not be in a criminal court. At least not to begin with. As for burglars let them rot in jail for a long time whether they admit it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted October 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 So UEFA's rule isn't a punishment? What the hell is it then? A pat on the back? It's a rule. Not a punishment. If you can't comply with rules in life sometimes you have to accept you won't get your way. For example, I am not an MP because I have not gone through the process and followed the rules of election, that are required for me to become an MP. I don't bleat that I am being punished by not being allowed to represent any slab of society. But anyway, where and when did I ever suggest Rangers had been punished enough? Never mind answering for I'm sure you know bloody well that I didn't. They haven't been punished nearly enough and I think they should be. Despite everything you have said I still don't think they will be. Individuals will be and as I've said probably a lot of them. No point repeating it all. My impression was that you were suggesting that Rangers had been punished enough, with the following two sentences that topped and tailed your post - and it was to them that I reacted. I'm not convinced Rangers will receive any further punishment in the way of penalties Do the Scottish Football authorities want to punish Rangers any further? My reaction is to ensure that the fallacy of "Poor Rangers" must not be allowed to gain currency. I repeat - there has been NO real punishment for their BIG misdemeanours, yet. Sorry if my reaction annoyed you, but I think it's best to not even hint that there is room for wriggle and sympathy. Not yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delpierro Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 in the traditional words of a wise sage: f**kem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) I am quoted on this site as saying.....20p in the pound(£20M)...Rangers stay in the SPL and we just need to accept It. Now?....It Is the end for them.....They will come back and play as a new club but this is now terminal for Rangers ...there will be no doubt this club Is dead. Edited October 17, 2012 by reborn saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 in the traditional words of a wise sage: f**kem! I agree with the pair of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Craig Whyte has made a few mistakes......He admits that now and has repented. Lets get behind this guy now and support his vision for Rangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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