The Referendum Thread

[Seaside Nipper]

Well as a genuine part of the 15% I am still largely unconvinced by the merits of staying versus deciding to vote yes. I shall be somewhat vexed for a while yet, see what unravels further and what rabbits are pulled from hats no doubt.

Both sides still firing across each other's bows with disingenuous sound bites and back biting.

So launch forward to voting time...........It has to be more than a night in with Braveheart and a few swift malts the night before. Then again might be worth it just to finally dis associate oneself from arrogant smug little shite hawks like Andrew Mitchell et al. ............... I might be easily swayed on the day after all

[Kendo]

Alex Salmond is Scotland's Political Messi, he is running rings round everyone.

It wasn't long ago that Labour dominated the Scottish Parliament. They have taken the Scottish people for granted and paid dearly for it. The SNP won by a landslide to have an overall majority , something that the Labour Party tried to make impossible when they set up the parliament.

What was Labours answer? Make Douglas Alexander, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling etc the leader of the Scottish Labour Party to fight Salmond? No not a bit of it, they thought that putting up Johann Lamont against one of the smartest ever politicians Scotland has produced would do the trick.

Labour are paying dearly for continually putting their best politicians in Westminster while the SNP have theirs in Scotland fighting for what they believe is best for the people of Scotland.

I don't think that the SNP will pull it off, however already they are running this closer than most people thought was possible.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So we'll keep the pound and might even get a say in the Bank of England. What happens when the UK needs to increase interest rates but it's not in Scotland's best interests - Scotland will be outvoted.

If things get that back you allow your interest rates and currency to be independent of bank of england. It could still be called the pound

What happens at the moment when interest rates rise and fall in line with what the city of london or south east housing bubble demands. Scotland and rest of uk suffer

According to the manifesto issued today, it will be pound sterling, there is no plan B. Try again.

We'll increase immigration to make sure that pensions can be paid, except the UK are clamping down on immigration. Will someone who lives in Gretna and works in Carlise have to go through passport control twice a day? What happens to my pension if these immigrants fail to come ?

Independence means not being part of the UK and having the ability to set your own policy on migration, its already been established that there wont be border checks between the 2 countries, similar to much of mainland europe. Have you actually thought what will happen to your pension by staying in UK? At least the white paper sets out a plans to deal with pensions over the next few decades.

Has it ? Because Alex says so, I've not heard anyone from the UK say there will be no border controls. The SNP plan to cover pensions, bring in migrant workers to pay for it. And what happens if these migrant workers don't come.

The biggest assumption of all is that the SNP would form the first independent government, they have been failing to govern since the referendum was announced as clearly stated by Nicola Sturgeon - 'we could have free child care now except the revenue would go to the UK'.

The devolved parliament has the ability to alter child care arrangements however they cant fund this as the extra taxation raised (NI & Income tax of additional workers) would currently be sent to exchequer in London. Its a bit like oil revenues

In other words the SNP are using free child care as a political bribe and it will only be if Scotland is independent.

What happens if NATO turn round and say 'if you want to be a member you have to keep trident' ?

Really??? Why would they when the weapons can be stored in a country that actually wants them. Is this whataboutery, f**kwittery or scaremongering

If taxes are not going to increase how will the set up costs be met ? Loans ? At what interest rate ? For how long ?

By having control over all finances raised in Scotland. Dont believe the lies that we are subsidy junkies

How will Scotland have control over all finances when fiscal policy will be set in accordance with the Bank of England or the ECB or will it be the US federal reserve ?

What happens if the EU turn round and say 'You can still be a member but here's the conditions' ?

You negotiate. What happens if they tell UK we have to join euro or lose vetos. What happens if uk (including Scotland) vote to leave. What happens if...

Do you seriously think even the tories will have that referendum ? That was all about Cameron stopping his backbenchers rebelling

Why should we keep a foreigner as head of state ?

Why does the UK have one at the moment

Maybe someone who lives in Australia, or any of the many other commonwealth countries who have Lizzie as head of state could answer this. I suspect the answer is it doesnt make any difference. In a democratic nation we could lose the royal family if enough people vote for a republic - again look at Australia.

Why aren't we been given the option at the outset or even a proper constitution ?

Why is the most secretive (check out the number of times they have refused freedom of information requests, inclusing the tale of Alex's tartan trews) assembly since it began not introducing a second elected chamber to hold the government to account ?

really??? you want another tier of government Its always something that you could campaign for - there's more likelihood of change in a small nation than the uk. Small nation democracy

BTW, if its denying of FOI requests look no further than the BBC..

When the assembly that promised to be the most transparent has been the one to have the most refusals of freedom of information request,, yes I do otherwise all we'll get is the usual SNP refusal to answer any questions.

The Scottish government have refused or failed to respond to 32% of the complaints received by the information commissioner. Including telling the people why Alex Salmond claimed £200 expenses for a pair of tartan trews while in China. He did pay the expenses back but only after the information became public that he had forgotten to pack his own trews and needed a pair for a dinner.Or what about the freedom of information request regarding what legal advice the government had received about remaining a member of the EU, again it was refused and it was only after the commissioner got involved that we discovered that despite what we were all led to believe, there had been no legal advice.

1 - there is no official Plan B as it would politically naive and the markets would be jittery at what they would perceive as not having full confidence in plan A. This isnt my opinion, its the view of economic and political commentators who work for the bbc (none of whom have been pro indy so far ). Do you really think that the uk would allow itself to suffer economically by not allowing us to have sterling? Even if they did, it wouldnt be the end of the world for us...

2- This is europe in 2013 - do you really think that we will be cut off at the border? More scaremongering. We are continually told that uk is very attractive to migrants, why would they not wish to come to Scotland? More scaremongering.

3- Child care as a political bribe - seriously? I am dismayed that you and many others in parliament today felt this was an appropriate line to take. A socially and economically beneficial policy is proposed and it is dismissed as a bribe.

4- I said control over all finances raised in Scotland. You managed to mis quote me in the line directly below my quote

5- The tories have said they will have a referendum on europe - why would it not be serious.

6- we are having a referendum on Independence, its yes or no. cameron didnt want a third option of devo max on the table, never mind subsidy junkies like the windsors. If you want to get rid of them, start a campaign and with a ground swell of opinion it might just happen. Of course, its a lot more likely in an Independent Scotland than it will be in UK

Constitution - the white paper sets out to develop the constitution during the first parliament. The UK is still lagging behind on this. So if a constitution and getting rid of the monarchy are that important why would you vote to stay in UK

7- FOI's about tartan trews - FFS!. Great use of parliament resources. The opposition continuing to behave like Stoneybridge toon cooncil.

The legal advice non story has been done and explained more times than I remember in the last year. All it does is trivialise a proper debate

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Alex Salmond is Scotland's Political Messi, he is running rings round everyone.

It wasn't long ago that Labour dominated the Scottish Parliament. They have taken the Scottish people for granted and paid dearly for it. The SNP won by a landslide to have an overall majority , something that the Labour Party tried to make impossible when they set up the parliament.

What was Labours answer? Make Douglas Alexander, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling etc the leader of the Scottish Labour Party to fight Salmond? No not a bit of it, they thought that putting up Johann Lamont against one of the smartest ever politicians Scotland has produced would do the trick.

Labour are paying dearly for continually putting their best politicians in Westminster while the SNP have theirs in Scotland fighting for what they believe is best for the people of Scotland.

I don't think that the SNP will pull it off, however already they are running this closer than most people thought was possible.

The sturge surprised me in parliament today - didnt flinch once, was always composed and wiped the floor with everything that the opposition had. I would say that she hit every curve ball out of the park, but it was more underarm tosses that they were serving up.

[BuddieinEK]

Alex Salmond is Scotland's Political Messi, he is running rings round everyone.

It wasn't long ago that Labour dominated the Scottish Parliament. They have taken the Scottish people for granted and paid dearly for it. The SNP won by a landslide to have an overall majority , something that the Labour Party tried to make impossible when they set up the parliament.

What was Labours answer? Make Douglas Alexander, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling etc the leader of the Scottish Labour Party to fight Salmond? No not a bit of it, they thought that putting up Johann Lamont against one of the smartest ever politicians Scotland has produced would do the trick.

Labour are paying dearly for continually putting their best politicians in Westminster while the SNP have theirs in Scotland fighting for what they believe is best for the people of Scotland.

I don't think that the SNP will pull it off, however already they are running this closer than most people thought was possible.

I actually like Johann Lamont as much as I dislike Herr Salmond... but my problem is that there is not one other Labour politician... local or national... that I would allow to sniff my fart far less trust!

Corruption is a word created to describe labour politicians IMO.

At a local level, SNP have incredibly hard working councillors and MSP's... so much so that I genuinely admire the work they do... ...

Salmond has surrounded himself with able politicians and has committed workers at the grass roots level... I am increasingly finding it harder to remain opposed to their petty separatist agenda!!!

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Johann Lamont is comedy gold - watch her reading her script at FMQ's. She has all the lines written for her but just cannae quite deliver the insults in a believable manner. A bit like a ben elton "comedy"

She was an English teacher for 20 years (never promoted) before getting into politics...

[Kendo]

Johann Lamont is comedy gold - watch her reading her script at FMQ's. She has all the lines written for her but just cannae quite deliver the insults in a believable manner. A bit like a ben elton "comedy"

She was an English teacher for 20 years (never promoted) before getting into politics...

My late Dad used to say that Labour could put a monkey up for election in Paisley and it would get voted in. The SNP have changed this philosophy but the Labour Party haven't cottoned onto it yet.

Surely in Gods name they have better leaders than Johann. It reminds me of the days when they put Michael Foot up against Maggie Thatcher.

Johann is of similar stature.

[saintnextlifetime]

My late Dad used to say that Labour could put a monkey up for election in Paisley and it would get voted in. The SNP have changed this philosophy but the Labour Party haven't cottoned onto it yet.

Surely in Gods name they have better leaders than Johann. It reminds me of the days when they put Michael Foot up against Maggie Thatcher.

Johann is of similar stature.

TBF that could be said about a few labour safe seats and l believe that in some cases , they did get a monkey successfully elected. .

[salmonbuddie]

There was one important point made by the BBC last night which everyone seems to have missed - this is the manifesto for the 18 month interim government between referendum and independent nationhood. That period is when the political parties would set out their stalls for the nation's future and the people would then choose the party (or parties) they considered the best option.

[saintnextlifetime]

TBF some economics woman on STV said that it was more of a manifesto than a white paper. Some American expert reckoned that the debate could become heated and nasty in coming months. I wonder if he has been looking in here. .

[oaksoft]

I actually like Johann Lamont as much as I dislike Herr Salmond... but my problem is that there is not one other Labour politician... local or national... that I would allow to sniff my fart far less trust!

Corruption is a word created to describe labour politicians IMO.

At a local level, SNP have incredibly hard working councillors and MSP's... so much so that I genuinely admire the work they do... ...

Salmond has surrounded himself with able politicians and has committed workers at the grass roots level... I am increasingly finding it harder to remain opposed to their petty separatist agenda!!!

Did you mean to say that? You are finding it harder to side with the No campaign?

If so, I think that as time progresses we'll see more people taking that view and things might start to snowball.

There's no selling point in negativity. It all sounds like bullshit when you consider the state we are in NOW with BT whereas, as you say, SNP politicians at all levels have beavered away quietly projecting an image of competence at all levels. Labour have taken their eye off the ball almost continuously since they lost the election. While they are attacking Salmond, they don't even realise they are being beaten on the ground.

Strategically they are hopeless.

A relentlessly positive message along with some excellent policies announced yesterday is impossible to fight against.

Darling looked a total incompetent twat calling it a Jock-umentary literally minutes after it had been published because it's clear he hadn't even read it.

The man can't even get his attacks right.

Salmond has been here before and has a history of knowing how to win votes.

There isn't anyone on the No side who knows how to defend a lead or combat Salmond.

I'm still unsure if the Yes campaign can win this but Dickson is very wrong if he thinks the gap will widen again by voting day.

Neck and neck IMO.

[Seaside Nipper]

Johann Lamont is comedy gold - watch her reading her script at FMQ's. She has all the lines written for her but just cannae quite deliver the insults in a believable manner. A bit like a ben elton "comedy"

She was an English teacher for 20 years (never promoted) before getting into politics...

tbh in this day and age politics is very much about first impressions and slick and smooth delivery , often in preference to meaningful content. You get talked at and bombed on instead of conversed with.It's a shame, Lamont may well be very determined and may well be quite intelligent and committed. Fact is though , she is undeniably cumbersome in appearance and delivery , this switches people off from any message. Same thing happened with Gordon Brown , his Scottishness and seemingly dour appearance switched off too many people from him.

Salmond by comparison is a very good performer, even though he continually offers up a snide laqugh and retort to dismiss as silly almost every question he is asked. Sturgeon is from the same prep, well polished and a good speaker, it is just so irritating the way they have been schooled to fend off with a snort of derision seemingly silly questions as if no one except them know the answer.

That said....................lots of time to make up the ol mind............still majorly undecided this morning. What could happen today .........................

[Stuart Dickson]

There was one important point made by the BBC last night which everyone seems to have missed - this is the manifesto for the 18 month interim government between referendum and independent nationhood. That period is when the political parties would set out their stalls for the nation's future and the people would then choose the party (or parties) they considered the best option.

Yeah at the taxpayers expense. The SNP should be hammered for flagrant rule breaking

[saintnextlifetime]

Johann Lamont is comedy gold - watch her reading her script at FMQ's. She has all the lines written for her but just cannae quite deliver the insults in a believable manner. A bit like a ben elton "comedy"

tbh in this day and age politics is very much about first impressions and slick and smooth delivery , often in preference to meaningful content. You get talked at and bombed on instead of conversed with.It's a shame, Lamont may well be very determined and may well be quite intelligent and committed. Fact is though , she is undeniably cumbersome in appearance and delivery , this switches people off from any message. Same thing happened with Gordon Brown , his Scottishness and seemingly dour appearance switched off too many people from him.

Salmond by comparison is a very good performer, even though he continually offers up a snide laqugh and retort to dismiss as silly almost every question he is asked. Sturgeon is from the same prep, well polished and a good speaker, it is just so irritating the way they have been schooled to fend off with a snort of derision seemingly silly questions as if no one except them know the answer.

That said....................lots of time to make up the ol mind............still majorly undecided this morning. What could happen today .........................

I think that is likely to be the case for a while , as people are wanting to be convinced on the issue before they vote but without a crystal ball , they are unlikely to get the sort of data that will 100% do that for them. In the end , people are going to have to have a bit of faith in the future of their country and faith in their leaders and that , will be the difficult bit. .

Last nite it transpired that some undecided people think that they will be handed Devo-Max if they vote no , but l don't see how that would necessarily be the case , at all. .

[bluto]

Because rightly or wrongly, English voters overwhelmingly outvote every other nation in the UK which is why we have a Tory government when Scotland and Wales jointly voted overwhelmingly for Labour. English MP's totally dominate Westminster.

You can dress this up as 4 countries if you want but make no mistake - the UK is considered to be England by virtually everyone in the world.

BTW there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of England putting up border controls at Gretna or anywhere else. It simply isn't in their interests to do this from a business, social or economic perspective.

Once again you describe democracy but dwell on the fact that occasionally you don't get your own way with the result! The reason that there's a COALITION ( I made it big in case you missed the news) government is because that's what the majority of people voted for. Danny Alexander's electorate is not an English one. Neither are those of Fort William, or Dumfries. And I'd bet all the Labour voters throughout Scotland didn't vote Tory, either. (There's a small clue in the adjective I used to describe them.).

It also annoys me in my travels that the rest of the world uses England as catch-all description for the Uk/GB but that is our own fault as historically it's how we sold ourselves as a brand to the world. I do my bit to proclaim Scotland , almost as much as I laud Paisley.

But my main point is about democracy - it doesn't always deliver what we want. As a Londoner (we voted for Ken throughout the Thatcher years) I know your problem and how it feels. But I wouldn't be so daft or selfish as to want to run away from the fight (against the forces of greed) and leave the less well-equipped to struggle alone.

[Seaside Nipper]

I think that is likely to be the case for a while , as people are wanting to be convinced on the issue before they vote but without a crystal ball , they are unlikely to get the sort of data that will 100% do that for them. In the end , people are going to have to have a bit of faith in the future of their country and faith in their leaders and that , will be the difficult bit. .

Last nite it transpired that some undecided people think that they will be handed Devo-Max if they vote no , but l don't see how that would necessarily be the case , at all. .

Yes, quite.

Strange, I noticed during one interview with Salmond to some mild amusement , then a bit of annoyance last night , some guy behind him holding up a Union Jack. Couldn't change the camera angle , or wouldn't , hmmmm......??

Anyway, it is obvious that irrespective of what policy detail and soundbites are issued , there are deeply entrenched views on Yes and No , that will not be changed , ever, despite any 'facts' that are proposed, asserted, trumpeted during the campaign. Many people are already decided in many cases. no matter what

I've listened to some proposals that an Independant Scotland would morph into something akin to NI , and that Sectarianism would be rife with cabals bickering endlessly over the minutiae ad infinitum and stagnation would rumble on for years !

Then you have the Rainbow and pot of gold merchants that only see Scotland soar away like a Northern nirvana.

As ever , truth is always probably in the middle, a balance if you like, problem for the YES team is galvanising a belief from a lot of people who are in the main , apathetic and would stick with the status quo , irrespective of how bad it got, cos we could always' blame the English'

Fact is that a YES vote appears to me to only be the start of a very very long transition across all manner of policy and governance, fact also appears to be that the Westminster government is very concerned with what could transpire with the Scots if a YES vote succeeded. A NO vote would according to some leave Scotland exposed to a dysfunctional Union that would further serve only to shackle Scotland going forward.

So, it's a question of trust................oh dear, we're not very good at that 'up here'........still undecided.

What could convince ...................?

Economic well being

Future prospects for kids

Our place in the world

Braveheart posturing and wha's like us

New found European alliances

A tourist boom

A Scottish passport

Problem remains, I'm phucked if I know ......................

[RickMcD]

Once again you describe democracy but dwell on the fact that occasionally you don't get your own way with the result! The reason that there's a COALITION ( I made it big in case you missed the news) government is because that's what the majority of people voted for. Danny Alexander's electorate is not an English one. Neither are those of Fort William, or Dumfries. And I'd bet all the Labour voters throughout Scotland didn't vote Tory, either. (There's a small clue in the adjective I used to describe them.).

It also annoys me in my travels that the rest of the world uses England as catch-all description for the Uk/GB but that is our own fault as historically it's how we sold ourselves as a brand to the world. I do my bit to proclaim Scotland , almost as much as I laud Paisley.

But my main point is about democracy - it doesn't always deliver what we want. As a Londoner (we voted for Ken throughout the Thatcher years) I know your problem and how it feels. But I wouldn't be so daft or selfish as to want to run away from the fight (against the forces of greed) and leave the less well-equipped to struggle alone.

Once again you describe democracy but dwell on the fact that occasionally you don't get your own way with the result! The reason that there's a COALITION ( I made it big in case you missed the news) government is because that's what the majority of people voted for. Danny Alexander's electorate is not an English one. Neither are those of Fort William, or Dumfries. And I'd bet all the Labour voters throughout Scotland didn't vote Tory, either. (There's a small clue in the adjective I used to describe them.).

It also annoys me in my travels that the rest of the world uses England as catch-all description for the Uk/GB but that is our own fault as historically it's how we sold ourselves as a brand to the world. I do my bit to proclaim Scotland , almost as much as I laud Paisley.

But my main point is about democracy - it doesn't always deliver what we want. As a Londoner (we voted for Ken throughout the Thatcher years) I know your problem and how it feels. But I wouldn't be so daft or selfish as to want to run away from the fight (against the forces of greed) and leave the less well-equipped to struggle alone.

If you had an agenda I would describe your claim that the populous voted for a coalition as spin. It was an accident. The electorate has shown a certain liking of coalitions but our beloved MP's hate it with a passion. After the banking crisis in 2008 I would have gone for a government of national unity but our lords and masters won't have it. It would bugger up their jollies and nice little earners at Whitehall. There might even be real accountability, perish the thought. Coalition governments fall apart when one of the junior member's shibboleths goes down the pan. I have a vision of a government of national unity with party politics nowhere in sight. And St.Mirren will sign Messi and Ronaldo next season.

Your final paragraph is a cracker. How many 'Yes' voters claim to be socialist? The level of self-centred greed we have heard recently from many of them is pretty sickening. Socialist my arse.

[Ayrshire Saints]

Of course it changes. Everything changes. Just look at what happened at the old Yugoslavia. Did Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina all just carry on with the same political and monetary agreements that Yugoslavia had? Did they f**k!

What is it that you natsis are running scared of though Salmonbuddie? Alex Salmond wants Scotland to be like Norway so why not go it alone like they do? Have your own currency and tell the EU you may seek membership in the future after you hold a referendum on whether Scots want to join the EU and the ERM. After all Scotland has so much oil and it's going to sell worldwide anyway whether or not we have trade agreements in place.

You couldn't have picked a worse example if you tried. Do you honestly think any Croat wanted to use yugoslav currency or the former Yugoslav political set-up ?

[Thorizaar]

Which part of "we don't need permission from anyone to keep using Sterling" isn't clear?

Permission is required from HM Treasury for Scottish banks to issue Sterling notes.

[bluto]

If you had an agenda I would describe your claim that the populous voted for a coalition as spin. It was an accident. The electorate has shown a certain liking of coalitions but our beloved MP's hate it with a passion. After the banking crisis in 2008 I would have gone for a government of national unity but our lords and masters won't have it. It would bugger up their jollies and nice little earners at Whitehall. There might even be real accountability, perish the thought. Coalition governments fall apart when one of the junior member's shibboleths goes down the pan. I have a vision of a government of national unity with party politics nowhere in sight. And St.Mirren will sign Messi and Ronaldo next season.

Your final paragraph is a cracker. How many 'Yes' voters claim to be socialist? The level of self-centred greed we have heard recently from many of them is pretty sickening. Socialist my arse.

I never intended to claim that the population voted for a Coalition, though I agree that could be a valid interpretation. I meant simply to point out that -despite what oaky said - the electorate did NOT vote Tory. Their voting did, however, produce that result. Democracy in action - sometimes not providing the outcome we personally desire.

And hum... I'm no sure how to respond to your comment about my final para, other than perhaps agree that the YES voters do seem to be all about me, me me, rather than about a genuine community spirit.

I merely reported that Londoners voted for cuddly Ken in the GLC throughout the Thatcher years. And that, I personally, don't like the idea of Scotland abandoning the fight alongside the similarly deprived areas of Britain that suffer through Tory policies, and that don't have a historical get-out anomaly to exploit.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

The white paper is a good start giving a wee insight on what could be where the no campaign offer nothing apart from being better together.

Looking at polls the Independence vote is up but not yet enough for the Yes vote to be a sure thing. The undecided can swing the yes vote over the line.

Regarding the Unionist threat of not letting a independent Scotland use Sterling is nothing short of scare mongering. The rest of the UK needs Scotland to stay in Stirling Scotland is England's biggest trader and vice versa. Scotland's exports also help to keep sterling strong pull us out of sterling and it will weaken which brings all sorts of problems to the rest of the UK.

Who would you trust local people or another 10 years of a Tort government. Have not heard one positive thing why i would like to stay within the UK and that's where I see the problem with the No vote

[faraway saint]

I agree, keep Scotland in Stirling, or should that be Stirling in Scotland?

I'm confused.

[BuddieinEK]

I agree, keep Scotland in Stirling, or should that be Stirling in Scotland?

I'm confused.

and what about the Moss? It is a valuable commodity for sure... who hasn't heard of Stirling Moss?

[faraway saint]

and what about the Moss? It is a valuable commodity for sure... who hasn't heard of Stirling Moss?

No need to take the piss.

[flyingscot]

And that, I personally, don't like the idea of Scotland abandoning the fight alongside the similarly deprived areas of Britain that suffer through Tory policies, and that don't have a historical get-out anomaly to exploit.

The problem is Scotland has voted Labour year in year out and Labour were in charge from 1997. Did things get any better? The idea that deprived areas need to fight Tory policies together is a nonsense, the Labour party are full of posh Oxbridge graduates and are as bad as they are these days.