The Referendum Thread

[Isabella Duke]

No.

I think it will be a boon to the YES campaign, Andy.

Many people who are swithering will find the rise of UKIP distinctly distasteful, and this will push them towards voting YES in order to distance themselves and Scotland from the right-wing reactionary pish that appears to be gathering an unsavoury head of steam in the UK and other parts of Europe.

Watch this space....

You aren't quite getting this Drew.

This is the UKIP vote on the increase in Scotland!

The SNP vote is down, the Tory vote is up, UKIP's vote has more than doubled.

In Scotland...

This is Scots who are voting Tory and UKIP.

The Tories & UKIP will get as many seats as the SNP - as many seats as Labour. And yet folk like you would try to have us believe that these parties are irrelevant in Scotland.

I myself would never vote UKIP - they are the UK equivalent of the SNP - I proudly vote Conservative. But the fact is that fellow Scots like myself are voting for these parties.

I put that partly down to condescending people like you who try to trash their fellow Scots at every turn!

You will get your backlash at the polls alright - and the backlash will be a massive no vote to get it right up you!

Edited May 26, 2014 by Isabella Duke

[Isabella Duke]

Talking of UKIP, did anyone else hear the interview on Radio Shortbread this morning with Gary Robertson talking to the UKIP member who looks likely to have won a Scottish seat in the European Parliament? It was about 8.40am, and I was actually laughing out loud as I listened in the car on my way to work.

It went something like this (seriously!):

GR: So what do you intend to do to represent Scotland in the European Parliament?

UKIP chap: Well, er, you know....um....look to get rid of a lot these daft regulations that affect Scottish businesses and things like that

GR: And what type of regulations are you referring to?

UKIP chap: Well, um....you know, all those silly regulations....

GR: Can you be more specific?

UKIP chap: Er, well, there are lots of them, aren't there....you know the type of thing.

GR: Yes, but I am asking you to refer specifically to one such regulation....

UKIP chap: Well, um, off the top of my head? Er....well, those health and safety rules....you know...?

GR: Can you refer to one in particular?

UKIP chap: Well, er, its early on a Monday morning, and I didn't get much sleep....

GR: So you see, this is the issue, isn't it? UKIP operates on a platform based on attacking the EU, but loses credibility when it comes to making specific challenges, and is merely a protest party and little else. Isn't that correct?

UKIP chap: well....no, not at all, um....

If you get a chance to listen to this on the iPlayer or some such, I would thoroughly recommend it. It was genuinely priceless.

It was utterly preposterous, but what is more preposterous still is that people actually vote for these buffoons, and, moreover, that the established parties are losing ground to them. Staggering, really.

You make my point for me again Drew!

Voters in Scotland are voting for clowns like this just 4 months away from a vote on Scottish independence!

They vote as a reaction against the likes of YOU!

GIRUY!

[Drew]

You make my point for me again Drew!

Voters in Scotland are voting for clowns like this just 4 months away from a vote on Scottish independence!

They vote as a reaction against the likes of YOU!

GIRUY! :

Tick tock, Andy....tick tock....

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So ukip win in england but are fourth in Scotland and this is meant to show that uk is the same politically? Bitter together, lies,spin,lies, spin...

[Stuart Dickson]

There are a number of conclusions to be drawn from this weeks European Election Results in Scotland.

1. Scots really don't give a f**k about Europe - no matter what the SNP are telling us. Turnout was just 33% and it's the lack of ability of the major parties to enthuse anyone to vote and this stupid proportional representation system where people don't get to chose their representatives that means UKIP will have an MEP.

2. Scots have rejected Independence. The voting results back up what recent opinion polls have been showing. The Parties that are backing the Yes Campaign - the SNP and the Greens combined - polled just 38% of the votes. As we know just 1 in 3 Scots wants to break from the Union and it's clearly shown yet again in this the largest opinion poll conducted in Scotland since the last Scottish Government Elections.

3. I think Salmond played a poor hand in the days before the election. In highlighting the fact that his target was to get 3 MEP's and that the biggest threat to that was the UKIP vote, I suspect that many who might have voted for Labour, or for Conservative will have voted tactically to ensure that the SNP didn't get what they wanted. Had Salmond kept it lower key he may have got what he wanted.

4. It's yet another election where the SNP have failed to reach the kind of popularity levels that the "most unpopular political leader ever in Scotland" achieved in 1979. Indeed they have once again failed, by a huge margin, to get anywhere near the level of votes Thatcher got even when the Conservative support was at it's lowest in Scotland. Its time Scots acknowledged that actually Margaret Thatcher was nowhere near the demon her political opponents make out. She actually continued to carry huge levels of support in Scotland - the kind of levels of support the SNP can only have wet dreams about.

5. I think that the rise in support for UKIP will dissipate before the next General Election in 2015. The reason for this is simple. Our UK electoral system works on many levels, one of which is locally. UKIP will have to field candidates in all of the Electoral Wards and it will very quickly become evident that their candidates aren't credible once held up to closer scrutiny. They've become this years protest vote against the establishment and the electorate don't value the EU in the same way politicians do, we saw that at the last European elections when the BNP managed to get Nick Griffin elected. I think those voting UKIP can be regarded as floating voters as it's clear that much of the support UKIP got would have come from voters who put an "X" next to SNP at the Scottish Election.

6. The results of the English Council Election backs up what I'm saying on here. UKIP came fourth in the council elections behind all of the three mainstream parties down south. Labour topped the poll, Conservatives were second and Lib Dem was third. The fact that people voted so radically differently on two sheets of paper presented to them in the same ballot shows that we do not value the European Parliament and the effect it has on our day to day lives.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

So ukip win in england but are fourth in Scotland and this is meant to show that uk is the same politically? Bitter together, lies,spin,lies, spin...

We're all different Tony. In Wales they've voted for Labour. UKIP are second, the Conservatives and third and Plaid Cymru are fourth. Welsh voters are completely rejecting the idea of independence and they've clearly decided that we're better together.

The SNP are losing their share of the Scottish vote though - a hugely worrying trend for Alex Salmond and co particularly so close to their one shot at Independence. I think we're about to see the implosion of the SNP in Scotland and I can't wait.

[thepaisleypanda]

UKIP aren't necessarily home & hosed yet! If they are however, then the prospect of a Tory / UKIP co-allition can only be good for the Yes vote!

http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2014/05/20/where-does-david-coburn-live/

[buddiecat]

Exactly; so neither poll means anything!

absolutely spot on

[buddiecat]

I'm sure the EU would be happy to maintain the number of countries in its sawy, as Englandshire and a few others try to negotiate their way out ( or just leave). I can see a lot of plc.s moving their headquarters north in order to have a foothold in Europe as the Tories, Labour etc., become political chameleons to keep saets on the gravy train that is a politician's lot.

yes it's every politicians lot - including every scottish politician - they dont do it for the love of it

[buddiecat]

No.

I think it will be a boon to the YES campaign, Andy.

Many people who are swithering will find the rise of UKIP distinctly distasteful, and this will push them towards voting YES in order to distance themselves and Scotland from the right-wing reactionary pish that appears to be gathering an unsavoury head of steam in the UK and other parts of Europe.

Watch this space....

i dont think ukip rising is distasteful - if they stop free for all immigration, that would be brilliant , it will also be a double whammy if they succeed and stop "faith groups" having any say in running the country

[Drew]

i dont think ukip rising is distasteful - if they stop free for all immigration, that would be brilliant , it will also be a double whammy if they succeed and stop "faith groups" having any say in running the country

On your immigration point, can you tell me one way in which the current level of immigration has created a direct problem for you?

This is the question I ask everyone I come across who takes issue with immigration, and I've yet to hear a reasoned argument to be brutally honest. Incidentally, I'm not at all sure where you are getting this notion of 'free for all immigration' from.

[Stuart Dickson]

On your immigration point, can you tell me one way in which the current level of immigration has created a direct problem for you?

This is the question I ask everyone I come across who takes issue with immigration, and I've yet to hear a reasoned argument to be brutally honest. Incidentally, I'm not at all sure where you are getting this notion of 'free for all immigration' from.

Oooh I got one. Tesco delisted my favourite coffee and wouldn't get it back in again cause they needed the space for a section for Polish food stuff that all appear to get made in Birmingham. Bloody immigrants.

Drew in all seriousness it's a perfectly legitimate concern. It probably doesn't have a massive effect on life in Scotland as yet because we don't seem to have taken much of the burden on but we've got a limited number of hospitals and schools and when A&E is failing to meet minimum targets of dealing with people in emergency in 4 hours and when school teachers are complaining that it's too tough being a teacher and that they need to work less hours than the few they already do you can't help but wonder if it's wise leaving the door open, particularly to those who can't and won't speak English.

My view on immigration has always been that I would like to see us adopt something more similar to the Australians, Americans or Canadians. A points based system based on the language spoken, to what you are qualified to work as and how desperate we are for that kind of worker. The freedom of movement laws in Europe don't allow for that kind of screening.

[Ayrshire Saints]

There are a number of conclusions to be drawn from this weeks European Election Results in Scotland.

1. Scots really don't give a f**k about Europe - no matter what the SNP are telling us. Turnout was just 33% and it's the lack of ability of the major parties to enthuse anyone to vote and this stupid proportional representation system where people don't get to chose their representatives that means UKIP will have an MEP.

2. Scots have rejected Independence. The voting results back up what recent opinion polls have been showing. The Parties that are backing the Yes Campaign - the SNP and the Greens combined - polled just 38% of the votes. As we know just 1 in 3 Scots wants to break from the Union and it's clearly shown yet again in this the largest opinion poll conducted in Scotland since the last Scottish Government Elections.

3. I think Salmond played a poor hand in the days before the election. In highlighting the fact that his target was to get 3 MEP's and that the biggest threat to that was the UKIP vote, I suspect that many who might have voted for Labour, or for Conservative will have voted tactically to ensure that the SNP didn't get what they wanted. Had Salmond kept it lower key he may have got what he wanted.

4. It's yet another election where the SNP have failed to reach the kind of popularity levels that the "most unpopular political leader ever in Scotland" achieved in 1979. Indeed they have once again failed, by a huge margin, to get anywhere near the level of votes Thatcher got even when the Conservative support was at it's lowest in Scotland. Its time Scots acknowledged that actually Margaret Thatcher was nowhere near the demon her political opponents make out. She actually continued to carry huge levels of support in Scotland - the kind of levels of support the SNP can only have wet dreams about.

5. I think that the rise in support for UKIP will dissipate before the next General Election in 2015. The reason for this is simple. Our UK electoral system works on many levels, one of which is locally. UKIP will have to field candidates in all of the Electoral Wards and it will very quickly become evident that their candidates aren't credible once held up to closer scrutiny. They've become this years protest vote against the establishment and the electorate don't value the EU in the same way politicians do, we saw that at the last European elections when the BNP managed to get Nick Griffin elected. I think those voting UKIP can be regarded as floating voters as it's clear that much of the support UKIP got would have come from voters who put an "X" next to SNP at the Scottish Election.

6. The results of the English Council Election backs up what I'm saying on here. UKIP came fourth in the council elections behind all of the three mainstream parties down south. Labour topped the poll, Conservatives were second and Lib Dem was third. The fact that people voted so radically differently on two sheets of paper presented to them in the same ballot shows that we do not value the European Parliament and the effect it has on our day to day lives.

Those are some conclusions you have drawn. Your biggest failing is the assumption that only SNP or Green party supporters will vote Yes in September. As for UKIP it's an embarrassment that any sane person in this country can vote for what is basically a racist, fascist organisation even if it was as a protest. Also the result tells us that with the UK and Europe as a whole lurching to the right, the Tories are in real trouble losing ground amid a general swing which should be in their favour. I honestly cannot take seriously your suggestion that UKIP will have taken their votes in Scotland from people voting SNP at the last election. That is straw clutching of the highest order.

[Isabella Duke]

So ukip win in england but are fourth in Scotland and this is meant to show that uk is the same politically? Bitter together, lies,spin,lies, spin...

Where did I claim that it shows that the UK is the same politically?

The point here is that a yes vote in 4 months time is very unlikely when the Conservatives & UKIP can win the same share of the vote as the SNP!

The only bitterness, lies and spin is coming from you!

[Isabella Duke]

Tick tock, Andy....tick tock....

^^^^^ again, this is why folk are reacting and voting for UKIP.

The aggressive, in your face, condescending arrogance of the yes campaign will result in a big backlash and a landslide no vote.

You don't help your cause Drew. Quite the opposite!

[Isabella Duke]

UKIP aren't necessarily home & hosed yet! If they are however, then the prospect of a Tory / UKIP co-allition can only be good for the Yes vote!

http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2014/05/20/where-does-david-coburn-live/

Despite the fact that a quarter of the vote on Scotland went to the very parties you despise!

[Isabella Duke]

yes it's every politicians lot - including every scottish politician - they dont do it for the love of it

Indeed. It was yet another sanctimonious condescending post from a yes fan!

[Isabella Duke]

Those are some conclusions you have drawn. Your biggest failing is the assumption that only SNP or Green party supporters will vote Yes in September. As for UKIP it's an embarrassment that any sane person in this country can vote for what is basically a racist, fascist organisation even if it was as a protest. Also the result tells us that with the UK and Europe as a whole lurching to the right, the Tories are in real trouble losing ground amid a general swing which should be in their favour. I honestly cannot take seriously your suggestion that UKIP will have taken their votes in Scotland from people voting SNP at the last election. That is straw clutching of the highest order.

When 1 in 4 of those voting are voting for the Tories & UKIP then its those of believe there will be a yes vote who are clutching at straws!

As for fascism and racism, the way the SNP rallied the troops when Farage came to Edinburgh a while back brought thoughts of fascism to the fore and the main thrust of the SNP campaign is anti English racism!

Hypocrites!

[Isabella Duke]

Oooh I got one. Tesco delisted my favourite coffee and wouldn't get it back in again cause they needed the space for a section for Polish food stuff that all appear to get made in Birmingham. Bloody immigrants.

Drew in all seriousness it's a perfectly legitimate concern. It probably doesn't have a massive effect on life in Scotland as yet because we don't seem to have taken much of the burden on but we've got a limited number of hospitals and schools and when A&E is failing to meet minimum targets of dealing with people in emergency in 4 hours and when school teachers are complaining that it's too tough being a teacher and that they need to work less hours than the few they already do you can't help but wonder if it's wise leaving the door open, particularly to those who can't and won't speak English.

My view on immigration has always been that I would like to see us adopt something more similar to the Australians, Americans or Canadians. A points based system based on the language spoken, to what you are qualified to work as and how desperate we are for that kind of worker. The freedom of movement laws in Europe don't allow for that kind of screening.

We actually DO need immigration in Scotland.

We have an ageing population in Scotland and a large sub culture of lazy workshy benefits cheats.

We need some young workers to pay the taxes to subsidise the lazy Scottish benefits culture.

[Ayrshire Saints]

When 1 in 4 of those voting are voting for the Tories & UKIP then its those of believe there will be a yes vote who are clutching at straws!

As for fascism and racism, the way the SNP rallied the troops when Farage came to Edinburgh a while back brought thoughts of fascism to the fore and the main thrust of the SNP campaign is anti English racism!

Hypocrites!

Do you seriously believe the UKIP voters had voted SNP at the last election? Farage is a fascist and his politics have no place in this country. He was hounded for bring a fascist his nationality was irrelevant Edited May 26, 2014 by Ayrshire Saints

[Drew]

^^^^^ again, this is why folk are reacting and voting for UKIP.

The aggressive, in your face, condescending arrogance of the yes campaign will result in a big backlash and a landslide no vote.

You don't help your cause Drew. Quite the opposite!

Not sure if I want to dignify this with a response....

Oh, go on then....

[oaksoft]

The BBC are predicting that the Conservatives and UKIP will win a seat each out of the 6 available seats in Scotland.

Good to see that my voting Conservative contributed to that.

Scotland isn't quote the left wing socialist 'utopia' that some would like to think...

I'm pretty sure your voting for the Conservatives didn't help UKIP win a seat.

Not sure why an openly racist party gaining a seat would be something to gloat about. Clearly we have a problem with racism in Scotland but it's not a full third of the electorate unlike England which is some consolation.

[oaksoft]

Where did I claim that it shows that the UK is the same politically?

The point here is that a yes vote in 4 months time is very unlikely when the Conservatives & UKIP can win the same share of the vote as the SNP!

The only bitterness, lies and spin is coming from you! :

^^^^^ again, this is why folk are reacting and voting for UKIP.

The aggressive, in your face, condescending arrogance of the yes campaign will result in a big backlash and a landslide no vote.

You don't help your cause Drew. Quite the opposite!

Despite the fact that a quarter of the vote on Scotland went to the very parties you despise! :

Indeed. It was yet another sanctimonious condescending post from a yes fan!

When 1 in 4 of those voting are voting for the Tories & UKIP then its those of believe there will be a yes vote who are clutching at straws!

As for fascism and racism, the way the SNP rallied the troops when Farage came to Edinburgh a while back brought thoughts of fascism to the fore and the main thrust of the SNP campaign is anti English racism!

Hypocrites!

We actually DO need immigration in Scotland.

We have an ageing population in Scotland and a large sub culture of lazy workshy benefits cheats.

We need some young workers to pay the taxes to subsidise the lazy Scottish benefits culture.

Blimey are you on Red Bull or something?

Six consecutive posts of the finest laughable pish.

You certainly know how to brighten up our day.

[andysaint]

I'm no fan of Farage and UKIP - but his treatment in Edinburgh was an embarrassment to Scotland. What message did that send out - your OK if you agree with the majority but if you have a different point of view then we will physically assault you and chase you off the streets? - it was like watching the brown shirts in Nazi Germany!

Also I keep hearing that UKIP are openly racist. Can someone please show me some hard proof of this. Its easy to chuck buzz words around to try ans scare people - but without backing up the claims it means very little. To say the 'entire party' is racist (not a few candidates saying something vulgar!) is a pretty big statement.

[Drew]

I'm no fan of Farage and UKIP - but his treatment in Edinburgh was an embarrassment to Scotland. What message did that send out - your OK if you agree with the majority but if you have a different point of view then we will physically assault you and chase you off the streets? - it was like watching the brown shirts in Nazi Germany!

Also I keep hearing that UKIP are openly racist. Can someone please show me some hard proof of this. Its easy to chuck buzz words around to try ans scare people - but without backing up the claims it means very little. To say the 'entire party' is racist (not a few candidates saying something vulgar!) is a pretty big statement.

This article is possibly a decent starting point....

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/02/ukip-party-bigots-lets-look-evidence