spoogy1 Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 Take your pick...... http://www.google.co.uk/search?site=&source=hp&ei=UDyCUvHeCoOm0AW3goHYBA&q=soldier+shoots+afghan+civilians&oq=soldier+shoots&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.1.0l5.5010.12906.0.16345.14.11.0.3.3.0.531.3557.3-5j3j1.9.0....0...1c.1.31.mobile-gws-hp..2.12.3721.1Q_Oc4K-F0w I beleive that is US Marines and not HM Forces. The yanks are gungho and they like too rush in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 This might seem a tad controverial .... I totally respect your viewpoint Drew. I wear a poppy and am humbled to stand in silence for 2 mins once a year. My motivation is a mark of respect for ALL people killed in war past or present; civilian or soldier; 'our side' or 'their side'. It helps me to also remember the insanity of war and the countless suffering, maiming, torment and destruction (people, homes, buildings and animals) that occurs due to politics. Poppy Day or no Poppy Day I will always give 2 mins of my time in remembrace of the above. I would however like the 'remit' of the occassion to be expanded to include all of the above - an Anti-War Day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 remeberance/armistice day should remain in perpetuity.... It serves to remind young and old the ultimate consequence of war is mass death, but not normally of those who chose to start the war. Xmas themed TV ads, and xmas decoration of shops, towns, pubs etc should not commence till after midnight on remeberance sunday. Then not only will we be remembering the futilty of war, but reigning in a culture of celebrating xmas months before it feckin arrives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 I totally respect your viewpoint Drew. I wear a poppy and am humbled to stand in silence for 2 mins once a year. My motivation is a mark of respect for ALL people killed in war past or present; civilian or soldier; 'our side' or 'their side'. It helps me to also remember the insanity of war and the countless suffering, maiming, torment and destruction (people, homes, buildings and animals) that occurs due to politics. Poppy Day or no Poppy Day I will always give 2 mins of my time in remembrace of the above. I would however like the 'remit' of the occassion to be expanded to include all of the above - an Anti-War Day. We should never forget what was done in either world wars, both brought suffering that our generation thankfully cannot begin to imagine. By remembering the past it hopefully will prevent some madman trying to exterminate an entire race or the rest of the world standing back to watch as they did while the Nazis built factories to exterminate people. Our children and their children's children need to learn why these wars were fought and the reason why these types of things cannot be allowed to happen again. Lest we forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) This might seem a tad controverial, but I genuinely believe that the final marking of Armistice Day should be in 2018, 100 years from the end of WW1. I've always believed that, while we should learn from history, it is equally important to move on from the past. The First World War was, to a very large extent, a despicable folly, whereby too many young men to contemplate were effectively sent to their deaths in the most shameful of circumstances, and for the most dubious of purposes. It seems to me that, all too often, we fail to learn from history and are equally incapable of moving on from the past. There comes a time when we need to disassociate ourselves from the acts of our forebears, and I am increasingly uncomfortable with what has become an annual convention of marking the end of something that should never have begun. We don't have an annual event to mark the abolition of the slave trade - most likely because we are justifiably ashamed of this passage of history. Yet we don't forget that it existed (and continues to exist in other forms throughout the world). Likewise, we don't mark the end of the child migration schemes of the early part of last century, as a result of which, thousands of children were separated from their families and suffered neglect and abuse. I could go on, but I won't. The point is that I'm not sure whether convention and "the establishment" should dictate when and how we mark periods of history. I could just about understand the reasoning if it served to force home some important lessons from WW1, but I'm not at all convinced that this is the case - not least, for example, when Earl Haig's name is directly associated with the poppy fund. All that said, I respect the rights of others to choose to remember what they will, in a manner that seems fitting to them, and appreciate that my position on this one will likely place me in a very, very small minority. Interesting post Drew. I'd like to see Armistice Day commemorated solely in terms of the disgraceful waste of life ordered by those who never had to go through the horror themselves. I want to see it recognised for the utter folly that it represented and a warning that war should never be undertaken unless you are being invaded and possibly not even then. The whole focus should be to remind people that war is wrong - period! I used to support the entire thing until reasonably recently when it became clear that it was being hijacked by veterans of more recent and utterly unnecessary conflicts who seemed to be on an attention seeking drive - demanding we acknowledge them. The entire focus seems to be shifting to one of celebrating our "brave men" rather than a genuine reminder to put down our weapons. We should not be supporting war or those who take part in it. We should be condemning it and them utterly. The British army have not been involved in any war which could conceivably come close to the definition of "just" since the second world war and I'd debate whether we caused that by our actions in the first world war. I know this probably isn't the viewpoint you are advocating but that's my view anyway. The whole thing sickens me and the thought of calling any of these people heroes turns my stomach. Edited November 12, 2013 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 I beleive that is US Marines and not HM Forces. The yanks are gungho and they like too rush in. Was it a US marine who was found guilty of murder this week? Or was it a soldier from another country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) I beleive that is US Marines and not HM Forces. The yanks are gungho and they like too rush in. Perhaps this post then? http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/mar/29/uk-soldiers-disciplined-afghanistan or this one? http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/oct/04/uk-forces-afghan-civilians-deaths or this one? http://rt.com/news/british-soldier-shot-teenagers-984/ Are you getting the picture here? Where is the service to our country by these actions? Where is the bravery? Where is the honour? How does this improve our country's reputation or security? If you can't answer these questions, don't worry - you're not alone. Edited November 12, 2013 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 Perhaps if Hitler had won the war you would have seen lots more images, if you were born that is? is that meant to be a serious quote ? and yes i was born - don't know any other way of becoming a person, not born before or during any world war though and i have already said i respect those who had little or no choice to enlist for the 2 world wars. therefore i do not understand why you have replied in the way you have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 1384265975783.jpg these are 4 innocent people that have died in Iraq and Afghanistan so they are not "casualties of war" then - but in your opinion civilians are, i honestly do not understand your reasoning on this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 remeberance/armistice day should remain in perpetuity.... It serves to remind young and old the ultimate consequence of war is mass death, but not normally of those who chose to start the war. Xmas themed TV ads, and xmas decoration of shops, towns, pubs etc should not commence till after midnight on remeberance sunday. Then not only will we be remembering the futilty of war, but reigning in a culture of celebrating xmas months before it feckin arrives Is it really about remembering the futility of war, though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callum Gilhooley Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 Interesting post Drew. I'd like to see Armistice Day commemorated solely in terms of the disgraceful waste of life ordered by those who never had to go through the horror themselves. I want to see it recognised for the utter folly that it represented and a warning that war should never be undertaken unless you are being invaded and possibly not even then. The whole focus should be to remind people that war is wrong - period! I used to support the entire thing until reasonably recently when it became clear that it was being hijacked by veterans of more recent and utterly unnecessary conflicts who seemed to be on an attention seeking drive - demanding we acknowledge them. The entire focus seems to be shifting to one of celebrating our "brave men" rather than a genuine reminder to put down our weapons. We should not be supporting war or those who take part in it. We should be condemning it and them utterly. The British army have not been involved in any war which could conceivably come close to the definition of "just" since the second world war and I'd debate whether we caused that by our actions in the first world war. I know this probably isn't the viewpoint you are advocating but that's my view anyway. The whole thing sickens me and the thought of calling any of these people heroes turns my stomach. I had said that my last post would be my last contribution to this thread but on seeing this i had to respond. I had the humbling experience of visiting Auschwitz & Birkenau with a group of mates last year (after visiting the Belgian War graves two years previous) http://en.auschwitz.org/m/ If youve never been ... GO ! & then tell me war should NEVER be undertaken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 Is it really about remembering the futility of war, though? It,s like faith or having faith it means something different to so many. We could al do with a two minute reflection once a year on why we let feckin hopeless politicians lead us into wars where they are never at risk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 I had said that my last post would be my last contribution to this thread but on seeing this i had to respond. I had the humbling experience of visiting Auschwitz & Birkenau with a group of mates last year (after visiting the Belgian War graves two years previous) http://en.auschwitz.org/m/ If youve never been ... GO ! & then tell me war should NEVER be undertaken. I appreciate that you weren't quoting me, however.... Ironically enough, it was, in large part, the outrageous, crippling reparations that the allies demanded of Germany in the wake of WW1 that afforded Hitler the opportunity to whip up indignation and support in the 1930s. I referred to the folly that was the 1914-1918 war, and what it served to unleash some 20 years later provides yet more support of this assertion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoogy1 Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 [quote name="somner9" We could al do with a two minute reflection once a year on why we let feckin hopeless politicians lead us into wars where they are never at risk Amen ro that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 It,s like faith or having faith it means something different to so many. We could al do with a two minute reflection once a year on why we let feckin hopeless politicians lead us into wars where they are never at risk I couldn't agree more, but I'm not sure if the events and symbolism surrounding the annual marking of Armistice Day would bear this position out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 I had said that my last post would be my last contribution to this thread but on seeing this i had to respond. I had the humbling experience of visiting Auschwitz & Birkenau with a group of mates last year (after visiting the Belgian War graves two years previous) http://en.auschwitz.org/m/ If youve never been ... GO ! & then tell me war should NEVER be undertaken. This old chestnut betrays total ignorance of the causes of world war two and why an extremist like Hitler was able to gain power in the first place. If you know history you'll appreciate how much of a hand Britain had in creating the circumstances which allowed him to gain power. In other words, if we hadn't f**ked up we wouldn't have needed to fight the Germans a second time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 Aye we should just have let Hitler run amok, since it was all our fault. FFS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 I've been there too. I think people like Oaksoft should be forced to go to see the piles of shoes, glasses and suitcases belonging to lots of people including children. I have personal family reasons to believe in Remembrance Day and anyone that thinks that I'm in the wrong for wearing a poppy or acknowledging the eleventh of November every year should take their vile hatred elsewhere. All this we helped Hitler get as far as he did doesn't help matters. If Britain had just sat back and thought "oh well we gave them the opportunity to do it so it's our fault" and done hee-haw then we wouldn't have had the life we have. Get a grip of yourselves for goodness sake. You'd think some of you were annoyed that Hitler didn't win the war the way you're behaving. Show a bit of respect for people who gave up their lives for ours. I bet none of you would be capable of doing such a deed. Are you finished? Dearie me, I actually cringed on your behalf as I read that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 Very good... So would you be capable of laying down your life in order to help another? What does this contribute to the discussion? I don't need you to tell me when and how to acknowledge and appreciate those who have made sacrifices on behalf of others. Emotive, tabloid level pish such as you have posted cheapens the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 What does this contribute to the discussion? I don't need you to tell me when and how to acknowledge and appreciate those who have made sacrifices on behalf of others. Emotive, tabloid level pish such as you have posted cheapens the thread. Whoosh?It was witty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 Whoosh? It was witty. Too clever for me, in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 Aye we should just have let Hitler run amok, since it was all our fault. FFS Or we could have learned our lesson from world war two and decided as a country that we don't do war ever again. Falklands? Iraq? Afghanistan? Iraq again? I've probably also missed a few wars. You can add to that shameful list all the countries we've supplied weapons to, all the regimes we've propped up or helped to get rid of and all the other general f**king about in other countries including those in the middle east. Our country is a disgraceful embarassment and our armed forces have enabled that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 Whoosh? It was witty. Any chance of helping out us thickies by highlighting the wit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 Too clever for me, in that case. Any chance of helping out us thickies by highlighting the wit? Ditto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 Are you finished? Dearie me, I actually cringed on your behalf as I read that. Very good... So would you be capable of laying down your life in order to help another? Sigh.... If Drew can cringe on someone's behalf due the lack of quality in the writing it demonstrates the beginnings of an empathy that might well lead to a laying down of his life to help another. It was a perceptively witty leap of imagination... which (as it was from someone that I have on IGNORE) was exceptionally worthy of a "like" from me. I hope this helps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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