Guest TPAFKATS Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Ah but top cat, we both know that we wouldn't leave for a short time. You stay in while sorting out membership. Even if uk votes to leave in 2017, it will take a while to happen. Source please. EU is also built on people being citizens of the EU. All of the people of Scotland are currently citizens of EU and there is no process in the statutes that can kick out EU citizens. You cant leave the EU overnight - there is a legislative process that will have to be sorted through. Nothing is sorted quickly in EU, as it take negotiation of member countries representing their citizens. Also, there is a timescale of 16 months that Scottish Government reckon it will take to negotiate Independence from UK. Some sources in Uk Gov reckon this might not be long enough. Negotiating leaving the EU would take... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 The original post on of this thread is an appalling misunderstanding of what has gone on before. Better Together has not ever said Scotland could not get into the EU. The questions and uncertainty relate to the route for gaining entry, the timescale for gaining entry and the terms of entry. All of these valid and extremely important question remain today. Unfortunately most nationalists and the Scottish Government are unwilling to acknowledge the risks associated with these issues and are selling "independence" on a false risk profile. The Scottish Government's position is mere assertion and fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 EU is also built on people being citizens of the EU. All of the people of Scotland are currently citizens of EU and there is no process in the statutes that can kick out EU citizens. You cant leave the EU overnight - there is a legislative process that will have to be sorted through. Nothing is sorted quickly in EU, as it take negotiation of member countries representing their citizens. Also, there is a timescale of 16 months that Scottish Government reckon it will take to negotiate Independence from UK. Some sources in Uk Gov reckon this might not be long enough. Negotiating leaving the EU would take... ... Source please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbar_bud Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 On occasion http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/?p=1125549 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/?p=1128254 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/?p=1131833 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/?p=1131883 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-44#entry1136491 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1142276 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-50#entry1142356 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1152549 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-65#entry1152558 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-65#entry1152592 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-65#entry1152593 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-65#entry1152608 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-66#entry1152617 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-66#entry1152633 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-66#entry1152712 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-66#entry1152731 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-72#entry1154620 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-72#entry1154702 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http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1167433 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-141#entry1167438 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1167441 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-141#entry1167453 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1167841 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-144#entry1167845 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1167850 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-144#entry1167851 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-144#entry1167862 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-144#entry1167885 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1169607 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-154#entry1169610 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-154#entry1169611 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1169611 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-154#entry1169640 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-154#entry1169807 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1172848 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-165#entry1172853 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-165#entry1173045 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-166#entry1173739 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-166#entry1173735 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-166#entry1173752 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1178370 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-182#entry1178447 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1180559 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-201#entry1183191 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-202#entry1183368 I can only remember once when you admitted to getting it wrong? So all the rest must be lies. Someone has far too much time on their hands..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 The original post on of this thread is an appalling misunderstanding of what has gone on before. Better Together has not ever said Scotland could not get into the EU. The questions and uncertainty relate to the route for gaining entry, the timescale for gaining entry and the terms of entry. All of these valid and extremely important question remain today. Unfortunately most nationalists and the Scottish Government are unwilling to acknowledge the risks associated with these issues and are selling "independence" on a false risk profile. The Scottish Government's position is mere assertion and fantasy. exactly, people discredit others for telling lies and making stuff up, then post journalistic speculation from Mr A Source and dress it up as fact, i have said before and will again state - yes campaigners are their own worst enemies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Source for what part? That the EU is also built on people being citizens of the EU? Was that not what a lot of Maastricht was about? That the people of Scotland are citizens of the EU? That's just a fact. That there is no process to kick out EU citizens? You can't provide proof that something doesn't exist except to say that you should read all the EU statutes (or whatever they're called) and show otherwise if you disagree. That you can't leave the EU overnight? Another fact (unless you were willing to ignore treaties etc.). That there are processes you need to go through? See above. That nothing is sorted quickly in the EU? I think that's a given. That it takes negotiations of member countries? Another fact (though not the only reason). That the Scottish and UK governments disagree on the timescale for the negotiations? Go look at the referendum thread - there are lots of links to that sort of shit over there. That negotiating to leave the EU would take ...? That doesn't claim anything, so obviously doesn't require a source. So, what are you looking for the source for? exactly that - there is no reliable source because decisions can only be made when the situation arises and is put before the decision makers, hopefully the decisions never have to be made Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Spokespersons for better together, no thanks have previously said that we wouldn't get into EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Spokespersons for better together, no thanks have previously said that we wouldn't get into EU. Show me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Spokespersons for better together, no thanks have previously said that we wouldn't get into EU. possibly true, but i wouldn't believe them if i were you, they don't really know for sure, just like those who disagree with them don't know either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Show me. 15th July Alex Salmond’s dream of a separate Scotland quickly re-joining the EU lies in tatters today after the new President of the European Commission said there would be no new EU member states for 5 years. That was exactly what Juncker said. A "senior EU source" has since clarified his loose language. It doesn't answer my question. Show me exact quotes where Better Together have said that Scotland would not get into Europe. Edited July 20, 2014 by civilsaint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 The issue for me is not whether we could join/remain part of the EU... it is why the hell we would want to be part of the EU with absolutely no pre knowledge of what part we could play or what autonomy we would have. Are we SO desperate to remove power from Westminster (which I agree must happen) that weare prepared to potentially give even more power to Brussels? To me, that is NOT independence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) That was an exact quote taken from the Better Together website. http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/juncker-ends-salmonds-european-dream And you'll see above It wasn't "a senior source." as you claimed You still haven't shown me where Better Together have said the Scotland wouldn't get into the EU. All you've done is shown me an article with an entirely accurate quote from Mr Juncker stating that there will be no new members for 5 years and an entirely (at the time) accurate blog post. Juncker's people have since been clarified his loose language. Juncker has also said that he agrees with Mr Barosso's comments on the matter. Edited July 20, 2014 by civilsaint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 The issue for me is not whether we could join/remain part of the EU... it is why the hell we would want to be part of the EU with absolutely no pre knowledge of what part we could play or what autonomy we would have. Are we SO desperate to remove power from Westminster (which I agree must happen) that weare prepared to potentially give even more power to Brussels? To me, that is NOT independence. i dont understand that one either, people say they want to be rid of decisions made in england that affect scotland and then seem to crave the possibility of still being under the decision making of parliament members from every EEU country - including england ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Show me.Here's one from 4 days ago, http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/no-campaign-accused-of-dishonesty-on-eu-1-3479295 however I was actually thinking of quotes from months ago. I'll try and find them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambo57 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Can someone tell me, honestly, if there is a way I can stop even seeing a thread and any mention of it? Its a bit drastic mate, but I would say the only way, is to never read any forum ever again. It's up to you though... ;) Convoluted bureaucracy it may be, that's not a reason why they won't issue a statement. The fact that they would even have to consider it shows the uncertainty. No wonder the vast majority of business owners doesn't want independence, leaving the EU, even for a short period would be disastrous for businesses here. As you apparently require sources from others, all I can say... as BillyG requested earlier... Independent Source please! As you say, leaving the EU - for even a short period - would be disastrous for business here... considering the EU referundum promised by our Tory Masters in England, then surely a YES vote for Independence on September 18thmis the only way we can guarantee to stay in the EU? I am sure you must agree? Mr Juncker stating that there will be no new members for 5 years and an entirely (at the time) accurate blog post. Juncker's people have since been clarified his loose language. Juncker has also said that he agrees with Mr Barosso's comments on the matter. Source please! Edited July 21, 2014 by Vambo57 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 On occasion http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/?p=1125549 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/?p=1128254 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/?p=1131833 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/?p=1131883 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-44#entry1136491 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1142276 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-50#entry1142356 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1152549 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-65#entry1152558 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http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1163390 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-125#entry1163585 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-125#entry1163592 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-126#entry1163596 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-126#entry1163713 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-127#entry1163745 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-127#entry1163916 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-128#entry1164214 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-131#entry1164830 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http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-144#entry1167885 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1169607 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-154#entry1169610 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-154#entry1169611 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1169611 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-154#entry1169640 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-154#entry1169807 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1172848 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-165#entry1172853 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-165#entry1173045 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-166#entry1173739 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-166#entry1173735 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-166#entry1173752 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1178370 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-182#entry1178447 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=1180559 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-201#entry1183191 http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-202#entry1183368 I can only remember once when you admitted to getting it wrong? So all the rest must be lies. Classic deflection attempt. You'd do your campaign more credit if you would focus on debating the point being raised instead of pish like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) The issue for me is not whether we could join/remain part of the EU... it is why the hell we would want to be part of the EU with absolutely no pre knowledge of what part we could play or what autonomy we would have. Are we SO desperate to remove power from Westminster (which I agree must happen) that weare prepared to potentially give even more power to Brussels? To me, that is NOT independence. It's even more bizarre to me that the Nationalists claim that it's vital for Scottish business that we remain in the EU but they don't think it's vital we remain in the UK. Scotland's biggest export market by far is England yet they want us to turn our backs on a 300+ year old partnership that has worked well for Scotland, to jump into the abyss on the back of assurances from the kind of politicians that five years ago would have had Scotland using the Euro as our national currency and who only changed their mind after seeing the Euro become toxic. The same kind of politicians who state that they admire President Putin weeks before Russian separatists down a passenger plane over the Ukraine and try to bury the evidence. The same kind of politicians who were writing love letters to Sir Freddy Goodwin offering all of Scotland's support as RBS made their ill fated purchase of ABN Amro. The same politician who went on National TV as the banking crisis completely engulfed HBOS and RBS to claim that spivs and speculators were targeting HBOS claiming that the bank had a "good capital ratio." And the same kind of politician who criticised the International community for getting involved in the Balkan Wars - an action that stopped the genocide of thousands of people. Salmond's credibility should have long been dumped in the toilet but still a fairly sizeable majority of Scots hang off his every word and the only reason I can see for that is some bizarre loyalty to their Fuhrer. Edited July 21, 2014 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) As you say, leaving the EU - for even a short period - would be disastrous for business here... considering the EU referundum promised by our Tory Masters in England, then surely a YES vote for Independence on September 18thmis the only way we can guarantee to stay in the EU? I am sure you must agree? Far be it for me to speak for Top Cat, but this has been covered. A number of events would need to happen before any of this becomes an issue - with a combination that makes it less likely than you getting six numbers in the lottery this Saturday. 1. There would have to be a remarkable swing in the voting intention of Scots in time for the Scottish Referendum in September which looks highly unlikely. 2. The Conservatives would need to have a remarkable swing in their favour as they would need to win an outright majority before they could put an EU Referendum through the House of Commons. 3. Even then there is a high probability that the EU would move to stop the UK holding a referendum on EU Membership by offering new concessions and agreements with the Westminister Government. 4. All the major UK parties are going to be campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU. It would take yet another remarkable turn around to see the UK vote to leave the EU. Current opinion polls suggest that 52% of UK voters want to remain in the EU and only 25% want out. In other words theres more chance of the Yes Campaign winning their referendum in September. However, in the event that all the cherries line up and the rest of the UK does vote to leave the EU, the absolute worst scenario for an Independent Scotland would be for it to be in the EU as a small bit player with no power, no ally and no control, using Sterling as it's currency, having told it's biggest export customers - whom we will supposedly share a currency with - that we don't want to be partners with them any more. Edited July 21, 2014 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 This is fun, innit ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I did, what part of what Better Together wrote as i posted don't you understand. Alex Salmonds dream of a separate Scotland quickly re-joining the EU lies in tatters today after the new President of the European Commission said there would be no new EU member states for 5 years. If it was accurate then why did the official spokeswoman say it wasn't. It was accurate. No one (except you for some absurd reason) is claiming that Juncker didn't say that. It is a matter of public record that he said it and his source/spokesperson did not deny it. Whether or not that is actually what he meant, it is what he said. Maybe it was lost in translation, maybe there's another reason. Heaven knows. Contrary to what you say, you still haven't posted an accurate quote where Better Together say Scotland wouldn't get into Europe. You're simply evidencing the point made earlier about Disingenuous Yes supporters damaging their own cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civilsaint Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Here's one from 4 days ago, http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/no-campaign-accused-of-dishonesty-on-eu-1-3479295 however I was actually thinking of quotes from months ago. I'll try and find them That link does not show what you claim it does.I does however contain complete assertion from Nicola Sturgeon that Scotland automatically continues as a member state. There is a significant body of expert opinion that casts doubt on that, yet the SNP continue to state it as fact. Please do find some actual quotes where BT say Scotland won't get into the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 That link does not show what you claim it does.I does however contain complete assertion from Nicola Sturgeon that Scotland automatically continues as a member state. There is a significant body of expert opinion that casts doubt on that, yet the SNP continue to state it as fact. Please do find some actual quotes where BT say Scotland won't get into the EU. I'm personally not claiming they ever used the precise phrase as you've asked for. However. What BT have said all along is that if we gain independence we'll have to re-apply for admission. To all intents and purposes this amounts to exactly the same thing as being ejected from an EU we've been part of for 40 years. The real question is whether that is a reasonable conclusion based on the probability of it happening. My problem with BT and their supporters is that they've taken a highly unlikely situation and made it sound like a done deal whilst simultaneously ignoring the very real likelihood of Scotland remaining part of the EU whilst negotiations take place. Don't make the mistake of thinking either side is telling the truth. Both are lying and misleading through their arses. You are accusing only one side of doing this which leaves you engaging in exactly the same nonsense. BOTH sides are at it. The real truth lies somewhere in the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Far be it for me to speak for Top Cat, but this has been covered. A number of events would need to happen before any of this becomes an issue - with a combination that makes it less likely than you getting six numbers in the lottery this Saturday. 1. There would have to be a remarkable swing in the voting intention of Scots in time for the Scottish Referendum in September which looks highly unlikely. 2. The Conservatives would need to have a remarkable swing in their favour as they would need to win an outright majority before they could put an EU Referendum through the House of Commons. 3. Even then there is a high probability that the EU would move to stop the UK holding a referendum on EU Membership by offering new concessions and agreements with the Westminister Government. 4. All the major UK parties are going to be campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU. It would take yet another remarkable turn around to see the UK vote to leave the EU. Current opinion polls suggest that 52% of UK voters want to remain in the EU and only 25% want out. In other words theres more chance of the Yes Campaign winning their referendum in September. However, in the event that all the cherries line up and the rest of the UK does vote to leave the EU, the absolute worst scenario for an Independent Scotland would be for it to be in the EU as a small bit player with no power, no ally and no control, using Sterling as it's currency, having told it's biggest export customers - whom we will supposedly share a currency with - that we don't want to be partners with them any more. 1. A five point swing according to latest polls. Not very large by anyone's standards, particularly as the Obama effect could well see the Yes campaign mobilise a greater share of its voters: it's one thing saying you're not in favour of independence to someone who stops you in the street or calls you up, it's quite another to actually got and state at the polls that Scotland should not be an independents country. 2. Simply incorrect - the latest poll I saw asking voters which way they would vote in the next general election (albeit it is a year away) showed that the only way of forming a government was for a Tory/UKIP coalition (or Labour/UKIP, but that would not happen). You can rest assured that a referendum would be the result. The Tories have already started moving in that direction by kicking out the only pro-EU members of cabinet and making ludicrous noises about withdrawing from the ECHR and by implication the Council of Europe - a charter that British lawyers drafted and an institution that the Brits were at the forefront of setting up. It is shameful. 3. I don't agree. Britain already has a ridiculous position within the EU, in that it cherry picks what it wants to take and seems unwilling to contribute. That is not how a union works to most rational people. The rest of the EU is fed up with Britain - witness Cameron's ridiculous posturing over Juncker, and his subsequent humiliation. It is not acceptable that Britain has a rebate in the first place, and I don't see the rest of the EU giving Britain further advantages as there is nothing in it for them. 4. Don't be so sure. The major parties campaigned for EU membership in the European elections and were dealt a bloody nose. As for your polls - simply not true. A majority of people are in favour of leaving, and they'd need only a 2% swing according to this poll from June (and when Scotland leaves, that could provie the necessary swing on its own): http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/21/eu-referendum-majority-leave-opinium-observer-poll 5. Scotland is currently in the EU with no power, no control and no voice. As an independent country, we would at the very least double our number of representatives in the parliament and have a say in the Commission. We currently have no say over the sterling (which is why Scotland should have its own currency and own central bank, but that will come in time). Our position will not be any worse off; in fact the contrary is true. Voting for independence is not saying that you don't want to trade with England (although voting to the EU certainly does mean saying you don't want to trade with Europe given that you will have left the internal market) and business would continue exactly as before because businessmen want to make money, not play party politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleySaint Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Is Mr A Source related in some way to Mr A Trialist......? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salmonbuddie Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 1. A five point swing according to latest polls. Not very large by anyone's standards, particularly as the Obama effect could well see the Yes campaign mobilise a greater share of its voters: it's one thing saying you're not in favour of independence to someone who stops you in the street or calls you up, it's quite another to actually got and state at the polls that Scotland should not be an independents country. 2. Simply incorrect - the latest poll I saw asking voters which way they would vote in the next general election (albeit it is a year away) showed that the only way of forming a government was for a Tory/UKIP coalition (or Labour/UKIP, but that would not happen). You can rest assured that a referendum would be the result. The Tories have already started moving in that direction by kicking out the only pro-EU members of cabinet and making ludicrous noises about withdrawing from the ECHR and by implication the Council of Europe - a charter that British lawyers drafted and an institution that the Brits were at the forefront of setting up. It is shameful. 3. I don't agree. Britain already has a ridiculous position within the EU, in that it cherry picks what it wants to take and seems unwilling to contribute. That is not how a union works to most rational people. The rest of the EU is fed up with Britain - witness Cameron's ridiculous posturing over Juncker, and his subsequent humiliation. It is not acceptable that Britain has a rebate in the first place, and I don't see the rest of the EU giving Britain further advantages as there is nothing in it for them. 4. Don't be so sure. The major parties campaigned for EU membership in the European elections and were dealt a bloody nose. As for your polls - simply not true. A majority of people are in favour of leaving, and they'd need only a 2% swing according to this poll from June (and when Scotland leaves, that could provie the necessary swing on its own): http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/21/eu-referendum-majority-leave-opinium-observer-poll 5. Scotland is currently in the EU with no power, no control and no voice. As an independent country, we would at the very least double our number of representatives in the parliament and have a say in the Commission. We currently have no say over the sterling (which is why Scotland should have its own currency and own central bank, but that will come in time). Our position will not be any worse off; in fact the contrary is true. Voting for independence is not saying that you don't want to trade with England (although voting to the EU certainly does mean saying you don't want to trade with Europe given that you will have left the internal market) and business would continue exactly as before because businessmen want to make money, not play party politics. A very reasonable, measured response to StuD's witterings. It'll never catch on....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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