The Politics Thread

[Stuart Dickson]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

The point about Independence is not having to hand over all of your income to another person who then hands you pocket money back.

The point about independence is being able to decide whether to remain in any co-operative unions or not and to leave if they prove unfavourable.

On the currency union, there are no plans at all. Sturgeon is still considering them so I have no idea where this fabled currency union with RuK would come from or why you would assume that RuK would be in charge of it. The euro is the way to go.

Erm....so why are you so bothered about Brexit then? We did this yesterday but the price tag for EU membership was £340m per week. The UK then got a rebate, and various grants handed back to it. You were vehement about this yesterday, and yet here where you seem more sober you've described the benefit of leaving the EU only using the context of the UK to make your point. 

You were at the wind up yesterday weren't you?  

[Stuart Dickson]

It was the Tories, wee Ruthie in particular, who made a great play of claiming voting No was the only way to ensure we remained in the EU.

That didn't really go too well for her, particularly in Holyrood the other day.

The lack of humility shown by her and her colleagues, for the Tory party being entirely responsible for the current shit storm, was deplorable. It only served to show them up as the arrogant and selfish reptiles that they are.

Erm, not it wasn't. It was the SNP who came up with the campaign based on independence being the only way to guarantee Scotland being in the EU. It was then shot down in flames by the likes of Jose Manuel Barrosso who made it absolutely clear that if Scotland voted for Independence it would have to leave the EU and then go through the process of applying to rejoin. The ding dong after that was all about proving points. The SNP created this bullshit, had their arse handed to them, and now - as usual - they are trying to desperately spin it as they always do. 

[Ayrshire Saints]

8 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Erm....so why are you so bothered about Brexit then? We did this yesterday but the price tag for EU membership was £340m per week. The UK then got a rebate, and various grants handed back to it. You were vehement about this yesterday, and yet here where you seem more sober you've described the benefit of leaving the EU only using the context of the UK to make your point. 

You were at the wind up yesterday weren't you?  

Explain why if a withdrawal from the EU means we are hundreds of millions a week better off as a country, the Chancellor has just announced that following the exit vote his projected surplus budget target by 2020 is no longer achievable. Treasury policy total U turn and another monumental Tory f**k up or a total pack of lies regarding the EU contributions - which is it ???

[nosferatu]

1 hour ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

Just have a wee look at Southern Ireland, that's all.

When did Southern Ireland enter into a currency union with the UK?

[nosferatu]

2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

The point about Independence is not having to hand over all of your income to another person who then hands you pocket money back.

 

Pooling resources sounds like a good idea to me. Protects us when our economic cycle is out of sync with the rUK.

On the currency union, there are no plans at all. Sturgeon is still considering them so I have no idea where this fabled currency union with RuK would come from or why you would assume that RuK would be in charge of it. The euro is the way to go.

This "fabled currency union" came from the SNP's preferred position in the referendum in 2014.

If an issue of such importance as this has been ditched after only 2 years then we really are in trouble!

A currency union with the rUK would require budgets to be agreed with an overseen by the rUK. We wouldn't be independent.

Edited July 1, 2016 by nosferatu

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, WeeBud said:

• Only if "they" won the General Election which at the point of announcement was far from certain!!

Yep good point.

[Stuart Dickson]

2 hours ago, WeeBud said:

• Only if "they" won the General Election which at the point of announcement was far from certain!!

It was highly likely. Ed Milliband never looked like a threat

[WeeBud]

2 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

It was highly likely. Ed Milliband never looked like a threat

That is conjecture I'm afraid, to put this into play they had to a) get elected and b ) have a majority to carry it through.

There is no doubt that they achieved both but until that point there was no "guaranteed" EU Referendum

 

[Stuart Dickson]

33 minutes ago, Ayrshire Saints said:

Explain why if a withdrawal from the EU means we are hundreds of millions a week better off as a country, the Chancellor has just announced that following the exit vote his projected surplus budget target by 2020 is no longer achievable. Treasury policy total U turn and another monumental Tory f**k up or a total pack of lies regarding the EU contributions - which is it ???

Well yesterday I showed that the yields on government bonds had fallen which meant that the UK government was saving around £8.5m per annum on interest on our national debt alone so I've already done what you've asked for. However that was not my point with that post. I was simply pointing out that Oaksoft is a hypocrite who argued over the £350m figure yesterday attempting to make the point that we were better paying the money to the EU to then get it given back to us as pocket money, and who now appears to be saying the Scotland should strike out on it's own so we don't give anyone else our money and then get it given back to us as pocket money despite the fact that he appears to have changed his mind since last week regarding Scottish Independence by virtue of the fact that it would "supposidly" mean Scotland might get to stay in Europe. 

His argument is bizarre to say the least, I'm sure you'll agree

[Stuart Dickson]

2 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

Just have a wee look at Southern Ireland, that's all.

Aye lets have a wee look. 

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/europe-walked-away-from-ireland-during-financial-crisis-407947.html

 

[stlucifer]

5 hours ago, oaksoft said:

That's not true Tony.

There was no firm date set but the Tories announced in 2013 that there would be a 2017 referendum.

Certainly there were many discussions during the debate about how we could lose EU membership by voting Yes that perhaps we would vote No and then Leave anyway.

No they didn't.

The Tories put it in their manifesto.  They couldn't announce anything. Well. That's not true. They could have had a vote prior to the election but they knew that would have been Farage ammunition given they were certain to lose it. They were running scared of UKIP but I firmly believe they didn't think they were going to win the general election so they could promise the electorate a vote, couldn't they? Just the same as the Lib Dems could promise, well, anything.

But don't let the truth stop you from, (and I am astounded by this), backing up the lying pipefitter from, er,. where is it he chooses not to stay these days?

Edited July 1, 2016 by stlucifer

[salmonbuddie]

Remember the EU president that "snubbed" Sturgeon (according to the msm/StuD)? Turns out he's leaving on Monday (he was probably busy attending going away parties) and there's a new one who seems to be fairly pragmatic about the whole thing:

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/next-eu-president-offers-velvet-divorce-scotland/

Also, don't believe the crap about having to join the Euro. We may have to commit to joining it when we meet the requirements needed but Sweden signed the same commitment in 1994, still haven't joined:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro

[Stuart Dickson]

26 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:

Remember the EU president that "snubbed" Sturgeon (according to the msm/StuD)? Turns out he's leaving on Monday (he was probably busy attending going away parties) and there's a new one who seems to be fairly pragmatic about the whole thing:

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/next-eu-president-offers-velvet-divorce-scotland/

Also, don't believe the crap about having to join the Euro. We may have to commit to joining it when we meet the requirements needed but Sweden signed the same commitment in 1994, still haven't joined:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro

Donald Tusk is leaving? Strange, no-one appears to have told him or indeed any of his Polish mates. Just four days ago Jaroslaw Kaczynski was calling for him to resign over Brexit. If the EU has replaced him already it's the fastest anyone in the EU has ever moved since the 1950s. And the idea that he'd be replaced by a man who says "Islam has no place in his country" is laughable. I think you might want to check your news sources. Ofcourse the fact that the Natsi's are turning to a racist for help shows just how desperate they are.....:rolleyes: 

[salmonbuddie]

I did, it's a lift from that dubious source, The Times. But I'm prepared to accept it at face value this time:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/slovak-leader-promises-help-with-velvet-divorce-r6hp6p6fc

This is too easy. And so predictable...

[stlucifer]

42 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:

Remember the EU president that "snubbed" Sturgeon (according to the msm/StuD)? Turns out he's leaving on Monday (he was probably busy attending going away parties) and there's a new one who seems to be fairly pragmatic about the whole thing:

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/next-eu-president-offers-velvet-divorce-scotland/

Also, don't believe the crap about having to join the Euro. We may have to commit to joining it when we meet the requirements needed but Sweden signed the same commitment in 1994, still haven't joined:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/eu-just-put-westminster-rock-hard-place/

[Stuart Dickson]

Just now, salmonbuddie said:

I did, it's a lift from that dubious source, The Times. But I'm prepared to accept it at face value this time:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/slovak-leader-promises-help-with-velvet-divorce-r6hp6p6fc

This is too easy. And so predictable...

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/slovak-leader-promises-help-with-velvet-divorce-r6hp6p6fc

Yes, and you made a silly mistake. He isn't replacing the President of the EU. Slovakia, who this guy is President of, takes over the rotating presidency from the Netherlands. 

Silly f**ker  

[Stuart Dickson]

Well done to our fellow UK buddies and colleague Brexiters, Wales, on their success tonight. Who'd want to be European.....:rolleyes: 

[oaksoft]

9 hours ago, nosferatu said:

 

[oaksoft]

5 hours ago, stlucifer said:

No they didn't.

The Tories put it in their manifesto.  They couldn't announce anything. Well. That's not true. They could have had a vote prior to the election but they knew that would have been Farage ammunition given they were certain to lose it. They were running scared of UKIP but I firmly believe they didn't think they were going to win the general election so they could promise the electorate a vote, couldn't they? Just the same as the Lib Dems could promise, well, anything.

But don't let the truth stop you from, (and I am astounded by this), backing up the lying pipefitter from, er,. where is it he chooses not to stay these days?

Simmer down. Already dealt with above.

[Stuart Dickson]

Catching up with last nights telly - This Week is funny. What a car crash of a guest Tasmina Sheikh was on the programme. Apparently the SNP have a plan, Nicola Sturgeon knows it, but Tasmina Sheikh doesn't know what it is and neither does anyone else. No wonder all the other guests were sniggering away. 

[salmonbuddie]

Yes, and you made a silly mistake. He isn't replacing the President of the EU. Slovakia, who this guy is President of, takes over the rotating presidency from the Netherlands. 

Silly f**ker  

Fair enough, I was sure that article said he was when I first read it but you're right, different president.

So that's only 3 of the 4 Presidents who are sympathetic to Scotland's case, and one who hasn't declared anything. And he doesn't have any executive powers anyway, he's more like a presiding officer who chairs meetings.

[stlucifer]

7 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Simmer down. Already dealt with above.

Sorry oakie. I should read all, (excepts sdick of course), before posting but I just get a bit fed up when I see him quoted lying in an attempt to make himself plausible.

[stlucifer]

3 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:

Fair enough, I was sure that article said he was when I first read it but you're right, different president.

So that's only 3 of the 4 Presidents who are sympathetic to Scotland's case, and one who hasn't declared anything. And he doesn't have any executive powers anyway, he's more like a presiding officer who chairs meetings.

Just like his triumphant, insulting quote because he managed to prove one, relatively insignificant detail in another's post

[saintnextlifetime]

independent

ɪndɪˈpɛnd(ə)nt/  

adjective

adjective: independent

1. 1.

   free from outside control; not subject to another's authority.

   "an independent nuclear deterrent"

   synonyms:

   freethinking, individualistic, unconventional, maverick; More free, liberated, bold, free-spirited, unconstrained, unrestrained, unfettered, untrammelled, unhampered; undisciplined, wild, wilful, headstrong, contrary "entrepreneurs are independent spirits"

   antonyms:

   constrained, orthodox

   • (of a country) self-governing.

     "India became independent in 1947"

     synonyms:

     self-governing, self-legislating, self-determining, sovereign, autonomous, autonomic, autarkic, free, non-aligned "an independent country"

     antonyms:

     dependent, subservient

   • not belonging to or supported by a political party.

     "the independent candidate"
   • (of broadcasting, a school, etc.) not supported by public funds.

     "an independent girls' school"

     synonyms:

     private, public, non-state-controlled, non-state-run, non-public, private-sector, private-enterprise, fee-paying, commercial; More privatized, denationalized "an independent school"

     antonyms:

     private, state-run

   • historical

     Congregational.

     adjective: Independent
2. 2.

   not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence.

   "I wanted to remain independent in old age"

   synonyms:

   self-sufficient, self-supporting, self-sustaining, self-reliant, self-standing, able to stand on one's own two feet; More self-contained, self-made; informalliving on one's hump "one has to be very careful about offering money to proud and independent old folk"

   antonyms:

   dependent

   • (of income or resources) making it unnecessary to earn one's living.

     "a woman of independent means"
3. 3.

   capable of thinking or acting for oneself.

   "advice for independent travellers"

   • not influenced by others; impartial.

     "a thorough and independent investigation of the case"

     synonyms:

     impartial, unbiased, unprejudiced, neutral, disinterested, uninvolved, uncommitted, detached, dispassionate, objective, open-minded, equitable, non-partisan, even-handed, fair, fair-minded, just; More without favouritism, free from discrimination, non-discriminatory, with no axe to grind, without fear or favour; informalon the fence "an independent financial adviser"

     antonyms:

     biased, tied

4. 4.

   not connected with another or with each other; separate.

   "treating each factory as an independent unit of production"

   synonyms:

   unconnected, unrelated, unassociated, dissociated, unattached, separate "the auditing of a company's accounts is done by independent accountants"

   antonyms:

   connected

   • not depending on something else for strength or effectiveness; free-standing.

     "an independent electric shower"

     synonyms:

     separate, discrete, different, distinct, free-standing, self-contained, complete "the Institute will quickly become a fully independent unit"

     antonyms:

     subordinate

   • Mathematics

     (of one of a set of axioms, equations, or quantities) incapable of being expressed in terms of, or derived or deduced from, the others.

noun

noun: independent; plural noun: independents

1. 1.

   an independent person or body.

   "one of the few independents left in the music business"

    

   So , independence in Europe is not INDEPENDENCE , it would be a travesty . .

    

   Why can't we go back to the position they put us in 2 years ago , when they said we would not get into Europe . .

[Guest TPAFKATS]

That's not true Tony.

There was no firm date set but the Tories announced in 2013 that there would be a 2017 referendum.

Certainly there were many discussions during the debate about how we could lose EU membership by voting Yes that perhaps we would vote No and then Leave anyway.

It's entirely true. The Tories weren't the UK government until they won a majority in 2015.