salmonbuddie Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 Until the new one that I've just got, my place of birth was on the passport. That could be a clue? And why shouldn't ALL of the UK have input into a decision that affects all of the participants in the UNION? Scotland arbitrarily disrupting the free movement of people and goods will alter the status quo both sides of the border. My sadness is that nationalist Scots want to run away from a UK wide struggle against Capitalism, turn their backs on supporting the other exploited parts of Britain that have been impoverished. A small historic loophole is being exploited and I can see no reason, no logic in how 'freedom' can make a difference? The system of Capitalism is not going to vanish just because Nationalists are briefly in power. Scotland's big market with south of the border will still be there, if you're lucky, London is not going to go away - and THAT is the big dislocating influence for all of the UK. What you term Nationalist Scots, the vast majority of them anyway, have been fighting against what you call Capitalism since 1955, before most of us were born. We used to vote Labour then we got the red Tories, Blair and Brown. Then we saw that very same Labour Party stand shoulder to shoulder with the Conservatives. Then we saw the other exploited parts of Britain that have been impoverished voting for BoJos. They rejected the Labour Party whose manifesto was promising things we already have in place in Scotland. What this tells me is that they have turned their backs on us, not the other way around. Scotland and England have drifted apart and we're getting further and further apart with every week that passes. Luckily Scotland has an alternative.And you're still not getting a vote.[emoji846] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 Does being born in Scotland make you Scottish? Is someone of no Scottish descent Scottish, if they were born in Scotland when their parents were on holiday here, taken back to another country to be raised and never set foot in Scotland again? My brother was born in England when my dad was in the RAF, did that make him English? My mate was born in Singapore, his brother in Germany and his sister in England when his dad was in the RAF. Are none of them Scottish? My point is that place of birth does not determine nationality, so what it says on a passport is irrelevant. I'm in no way saying that you aren't Scottish, I'm just pointing out the flaw in your argument. Considering that it was just the Scottish and English parliaments that voted for the original union (not everyone had a say) and both had to say yes, maybe both Parliaments should just have a vote to see if they want it to continue. If one says no, then it ends. Easy peasy. There is no English parliament... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 10 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: All man made borders are artificial and invented. Now that is very true. Read a fascinating book on borders and geography and what happens if you ignore them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 Are they the famous "friends from Govan" I wonder? Eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said: 6 hours ago, faraway saint said: Are they the famous "friends from Govan" I wonder? Eh? Ask Ricky, he has lots of friends from Govan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 7 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said: 6 hours ago, faraway saint said: Are they the famous "friends from Govan" I wonder? Eh? Indeed TP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 I think 3 things might be required. New Upper House, Regional Assemblies and a PR system. The regions are something that a commission drawn from across the UK would need to consider. Yes yes and thrice yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleySaint Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 All man made borders are artificial and invented.Very true but federal systems tend to already have recognised for want of a better word 'states', the USA being the most obvious example, the UK doesn't have that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 If the regions are created as the current countries within the union with equal weight of position and only a tiny handful of issues where we come together then that could be a good compromise to full independence for me. Can't see England willing to have joint initiatives vetoed by a single nation though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 If the regions are created as the current countries within the union with equal weight of position and only a tiny handful of issues where we come together then that could be a good compromise to full independence for me. Can't see England willing to have joint initiatives vetoed by a single nation though.Nope, not likely. Especially when England desperately wanted out of a union of equal nations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 1 hour ago, TPAFKATS said: 2 hours ago, oaksoft said: If the regions are created as the current countries within the union with equal weight of position and only a tiny handful of issues where we come together then that could be a good compromise to full independence for me. Can't see England willing to have joint initiatives vetoed by a single nation though. Nope, not likely. Especially when England desperately wanted out of a union of equal nations Indeed. Having "taken back control" I can't see them rushing to give it away. Look instead for short term bribery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted January 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall_Saint Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 2 hours ago, oaksoft said: If the regions are created as the current countries within the union with equal weight of position and only a tiny handful of issues where we come together then that could be a good compromise to full independence for me. Can't see England willing to have joint initiatives vetoed by a single nation though. Exactly this. That solution would kill off the Independence movement for a long time as it would actually be an equal union, with little forced on us - much like the EU, and a key reason many Scots prefer the EU to the UK. The reason the Indy movement have a decent support is because of the current lack of equality in this “union”, and what you say above would stop it in it’s tracks. Of course as you follow on with, England will never give that up. 533 MPs against 117 MPs, it’s a great irony that those in England who voted leave due to the “European dictatorship” live in the actual dictatorship where England continually has a predominant say in what happens in the UK. You can guarantee if Scotland had the 533 MPs and had forced an SNP majority on the rest of the UK, the English would be planning their own Indyref. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Cornwall_Saint said: Exactly this. That solution would kill off the Independence movement for a long time as it would actually be an equal union, with little forced on us - much like the EU, and a key reason many Scots prefer the EU to the UK. The reason the Indy movement have a decent support is because of the current lack of equality in this “union”, and what you say above would stop it in it’s tracks. Of course as you follow on with, England will never give that up. 533 MPs against 117 MPs, it’s a great irony that those in England who voted leave due to the “European dictatorship” live in the actual dictatorship where England continually has a predominant say in what happens in the UK. You can guarantee if Scotland had the 533 MPs and had forced an SNP majority on the rest of the UK, the English would be planning their own Indyref. You might be able to resolve the England issue by having each nation pretty much run their own affairs with only perhaps defence and currency as joint issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall_Saint Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 17 minutes ago, oaksoft said: You might be able to resolve the England issue by having each nation pretty much run their own affairs with only perhaps defence and currency as joint issues. That would be ideal. Perhaps a NATOesque “contribution” towards the defence costs so each is paying their “fair share”. Of course it’s not going to happen as Westminster will never give that amount of power up. But it’s things like this which would preserve the long term future of the union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted January 26, 2020 Report Share Posted January 26, 2020 29 minutes ago, oaksoft said: You might be able to resolve the England issue by having each nation pretty much run their own affairs with only perhaps defence and currency as joint issues. Devo Max perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 You might be able to resolve the England issue by having each nation pretty much run their own affairs with only perhaps defence and currency as joint issues.Cornwall and Newcastle might disagree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 Emily Thornbury hates 45% of the Scottish electorate. Quote Her statement came in response to a question at the conference at Nottingham Trent University campus, which asked: "Do you agree that the SNP's record in government is bad and this attitude amongst members is both wrong and damaging to Labour's chances in Scotland?" Thornberry replied saying: "I hate the SNP. I hate the SNP. I think they're Tories wrapped up in nationalist clothing. I think they pretend to be on the left and they're not on the left." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 8 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: Emily Thornbury hates 45% of the Scottish electorate. The Tartan Tory thing was levelled at the SNP years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall_Saint Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 11 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: Emily Thornbury hates 45% of the Scottish electorate. It’s like Labour are trying to finish themselves off in Scotland. Murray was spouting nonsense recently and this moron is doing the same, as is Nandy. I despise the fact the Tories are in power but with many Labour MPs doing nothing to back Corbyn and openly slaying him throughout, they deserve the heavy losses they took. Corbyn was more Labour and democratic than any of these tosspots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 10 minutes ago, St.Ricky said: The Tartan Tory thing was levelled at the SNP years ago. It was true back in the 70s but is the party pivoted in the late 80s early 90s - so Thornberry is about 30 years out of date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 Just now, Bud the Baker said: It was true back in the 70s but is the party pivoted in the late 80s early 90s - so Thornberry is about 30 years out of date. Absolutely agree Bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 It’s like Labour are trying to finish themselves off in Scotland. Murray was spouting nonsense recently and this moron is doing the same, as is Nandy. I despise the fact the Tories are in power but with many Labour MPs doing nothing to back Corbyn and openly slaying him throughout, they deserve the heavy losses they took. Corbyn was more Labour and democratic than any of these tosspots.It's an interesting strategy given that Labour are trying to win back voters who have switched to snp [emoji23] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall_Saint Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 26 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said: It's an interesting strategy given that Labour are trying to win back voters who have switched to snp Exactly. They don’t seem to realise this at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salmonbuddie Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said: It was true back in the 70s but is the party pivoted in the late 80s early 90s - so Thornberry is about 30 years out of date. She's an exact match with the Labour Party in Scotland, then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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