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Top Four Says Tony


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19 hours ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

As someone who was prepared to take a generous view of Tony's earlier pronouncements I think it is bad timing to come out with the aiming for the top 6 quotes. Goodwin hasn't even met the squad yet and we still have a few signings to make. I think most fans would agree with Tony we should be aiming to try and make the top 6 and he is right that other small provincial clubs have made the top 6 (most of the examples he mentioned are now Championship clubs) and there should be no reason why St Mirren shouldn't aim to break into the top 6 and reach that level from time to time. Most of the clubs Tony mentioned as Top 6 finishers also made the Top 6 at a time when Rangers had been liquidated and RIFC were in the lower leagues and Hibs and Hearts had been relegated and Aberdeen had been inconsistent and often finished in the bottom 6. It's now a lot harder for the smaller provincial clubs to make the Top 6 unless Celtic, RIFC, Aberdeen, Hibs or Hearts have a really bad season - they are all significantly financially better off than Motherwell, Kilmarnock, St Johnstone, St Mirren, Hamilton, Livingston, Ross County, Inverness, Partick Thistle etc. 

I do find it a bit worrying that after staying up on a penalty shoot-out in the play offs that Tony has said Jim Goodwin would not have been appointed if he said the aim would be to avoid relegation next season. I think most fans would settle right now for avoiding relegation and the play-off and seeing 10th or better as an improvement, and if we can stablisise the club and consolidate and improve each season for a few years that would be the time to start publicly talking about the top 6.

When the fixture list came out, bearing in mind how last season panned out, and given the amount of signings still to be made, there aren't any easy games - Ross County comfortably finished ahead of Dundee United last season and won't be push-overs. I would hate to think that if we had a slow start or were still signing players at the end of the window and looking at free agents after that, that the new manager could already be under pressure to be in contention for the top 6 this season.

Edited 19 hours ago by Dibbles old paperboy

So; if you "was prepared to take a generous view of Tony's earlier pronouncements" earlier, what's the problem now? Bottle gone? Joined Elvis or the other side? I don't know if you actually listened to where the quote was taken from or not but taking someone's words and printing what was said leaves a massive hole that is called context.  My understanding is that JG is not someone who will be unduly concerned with such statements especially given that he apparently seems to be somewhat more insightful than some others on this site and whilst I hate to agree with Shull, his thoughts that we should always be aiming for the top are valid as is TF's statement that JG would not have been offered the job if he wa simply aiming to survive. I fully appreciate and understand your rationale to "stabilise the club and consolidate and improve each season for a few years"  nothing wrong with that, however to begin a season with tenth as a target to finish is simply wrong.

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1 hour ago, st jock said:

Jim Goodwin will know all about Tony and his ambition and enthusiasm for the club and wont feel any added pressure IMO. The most pleasing aspect of it all is that Tom English is absolutely furious with Fitzy, who must have been pumping his wife!!!

Well.................. it's always nice to Feck the English. 😄

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OK; not sure where to begin, perhaps they are being diplomatic and "Him" should really be He since it is in a subjective position and "Him" is an objective pronoun.  Also why absolutely f**k all and not definitely f**k all or even potentially f**k all, why not simply f**k all?  Oh! and you misspelled f**k as well. 
Pendantic observations apart, he has a point.

Sell enough season tickets for the South stand and we get it back...

Yet online renewal proved impossible for that one stand only and the ticket office, open for just two hours on early bird deadline day, was the only option.

Open only for two hours and it took me 30 minutes to get through! Hmmmmmm.

Still... His grammar was right proper bad! Much worser!
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13 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said:
50 minutes ago, jaybee said:
OK; not sure where to begin, perhaps they are being diplomatic and "Him" should really be He since it is in a subjective position and "Him" is an objective pronoun.  Also why absolutely f**k all and not definitely f**k all or even potentially f**k all, why not simply f**k all?  Oh! and you misspelled f**k as well. emoji41.png

Pendantic observations apart, he has a point.

Sell enough season tickets for the South stand and we get it back...

Yet online renewal proved impossible for that one stand only and the ticket office, open for just two hours on early bird deadline day, was the only option.

Open only for two hours and it took me 30 minutes to get through! Hmmmmmm.

Still... His grammar was right proper bad! Much worser!

Points you / he make perfectly valid, I am assuming they are locked into a contract with whoever cocks up the ticket sales and it is such that it's either too much hassle to break it or (more likely) they have 'other issues' to deal with that demand priority.  And I try not to be a pedant re grammar but it winds me up when someone is being so damn rightous but carnt be bovered to sperl proberly.  😎   Fair comment though.

Edited by jaybee
a also carnt sperl
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Points you / he make perfectly valid, I am assuming they are locked into a contract with whoever cocks up the ticket sales and it is such that it's either too much hassle to break it or (more likely) they have 'other issues' to deal with that demand priority.  And I try not to be a pedant re grammar but it winds me up when someone is being so damn rightous but carnt be bovered to sperl proberly.     Fair comment though.
Please don't start a sentence with "And"!
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1 minute ago, BuddieinEK said:
5 minutes ago, jaybee said:
Points you / he make perfectly valid, I am assuming they are locked into a contract with whoever cocks up the ticket sales and it is such that it's either too much hassle to break it or (more likely) they have 'other issues' to deal with that demand priority.  And I try not to be a pedant re grammar but it winds me up when someone is being so damn rightous but carnt be bovered to sperl proberly.  emoji41.png   Fair comment though.

Please don't start a sentence with "And"! emoji12.png

And why would that be?  😎

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2 hours ago, BuddieinEK said:


Yet online renewal proved impossible for that one stand only and the ticket office, open for just two hours on early bird deadline day, was the only option.

Open only for two hours and it took me 30 minutes to get through! Hmmmmmm.

 

In fairness fans have had weeks to sort out their season ticket renewals AND we know there have been well advertisied problems with the online system.

Leaving things like this to the very last second causes problems for everyone including the club having to pay staff to come in on a Saturday because people couldn't organise themselves to do this ages ago.

The club should be answerable for problems with the ticket site but fans have to accept some personal responsibility too.

 

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2 hours ago, jaybee said:

So; if you "was prepared to take a generous view of Tony's earlier pronouncements" earlier, what's the problem now? Bottle gone? Joined Elvis or the other side? I don't know if you actually listened to where the quote was taken from or not but taking someone's words and printing what was said leaves a massive hole that is called context.  My understanding is that JG is not someone who will be unduly concerned with such statements especially given that he apparently seems to be somewhat more insightful than some others on this site and whilst I hate to agree with Shull, his thoughts that we should always be aiming for the top are valid as is TF's statement that JG would not have been offered the job if he wa simply aiming to survive. I fully appreciate and understand your rationale to "stabilise the club and consolidate and improve each season for a few years"  nothing wrong with that, however to begin a season with tenth as a target to finish is simply wrong.

The previous occasion when Tony mentioned a top 4 finish was at the end of the season and when we had only last to Celtic (1st), Kilmarnock (3rd) and St Johnstone (7th) in the final 3 months and shown form towards the end of the season which would have had us near the top 6 if we had shown it throughout the whole season.

Since he made those statements Jimmy Nicholl (first team coach / assistant manager) left at the end of his contract and we sacked the manager. We are behind all the other clubs in the league in terms of signing our squad for this season - 2 players from last season have re-signed so far, but we could be without Popescu and Muzek from last year's defence, at this point in time Dreyer and McAllister and Lyons have returned to their parent clubs and most fans would identify the forward positions as the key areas to strengthen the team from last year.

Whether or not Goodwin would feel pressure based on Tony's statements alone, who can say. I would reckon, at a guess, that any pressure is more likely to come from Gordon Scott, who has previously stated similar ambitions for our league position and added he wants to see an entertaining side on the park and he is also getting a reputation for being quick to fire managers (Alex Rae got about 2 months under Scott, Alan Stubbs had 3 months and Oran Kearney 9 months). It is also possible the comments could put pressure on the players if we have a slow start and the team aren't meeting the board or fans expectations.

I haven't lost my bottle at all but do think TF and GLS's comments repeating comments about top 6 finishes / qualifying for Europe would be better timed if they had waited until we'd had a season or two to settle into the top division and showed signs of progress before broadcasting the club's ambitions publicly. 

Most neutrals would have expected it would be easier for clubs the size of RIFC, Hearts and Hibs to make the leap from promotion from the Championship to the top 6 in the premiership because of the size and strength in depth of the squads they alread had allied to having much bigger budgets to attract top 6 players to their clubs compared with ourselves.

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In fairness fans have had weeks to sort out their season ticket renewals AND we know there have been well advertisied problems with the online system.
Leaving things like this to the very last second causes problems for everyone including the club having to pay staff to come in on a Saturday because people couldn't organise themselves to do this ages ago.
The club should be answerable for problems with the ticket site but fans have to accept some personal responsibility too.
 
Must be great when you don't have to wait till pay day to shell out over £400.

Please consider the poor among us your lordship!
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In fairness fans have had weeks to sort out their season ticket renewals AND we know there have been well advertisied problems with the online system.
Leaving things like this to the very last second causes problems for everyone including the club having to pay staff to come in on a Saturday because people couldn't organise themselves to do this ages ago.
The club should be answerable for problems with the ticket site but fans have to accept some personal responsibility too.
 
PS... The deadline was midnight Sunday... I tried to renew mine when I came home from work on Saturday.
That should have been plenty of time.
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50 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

In fairness fans have had weeks to sort out their season ticket renewals AND we know there have been well advertisied problems with the online system.

Leaving things like this to the very last second causes problems for everyone including the club having to pay staff to come in on a Saturday because people couldn't organise themselves to do this ages ago.

The club should be answerable for problems with the ticket site but fans have to accept some personal responsibility too.

 

Utter trash.

There's a deadline for a reason and the club should be prepared for anytime until that time.

"Personal responsibility".....................:lol:

You don't half talk some shite trying to be smart. 

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I think the jury is very much out on our prospects:

Reasons to be cheerful:

We have manager who has strong affinity with the club, some proven management ability and deep knowledge of Scottish football. 

Our squad should have a bit of a feel good factor having survived and done well in the last 10 games or so of the season. 

Some players look like they have stepped up to Premiership level. Mullen, Cooke, Flynn come to mind. And Magennis should be back to full effectiveness. Mackenzie too, if he can stay fit.

BUT. our manager is unproven at this level and there is a heck of a lot of work to be done to supplement the squad before season starts.  We have thrown the dice in all of the last three transfer windows. It worked for Jack. It failed for Stubbs (admittedly his judgement was poor). It worked for Oran, just. It feels like we are about to throw the dice again to recruit another 6 or 7 players to make up the squad-perhaps with another throw in January.

All in all, I am not optimistic for the coming season.  I think we have one dice throw left to secure a chance at stability in this league. 50/50 I’d say of surviving/getting relegated. 

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3 hours ago, BuddieinEK said:

Must be great when you don't have to wait till pay day to shell out over £400.

Please consider the poor among us your lordship! emoji12.png

That is true. I can't recall the last time I had to do that,

You got my title right though. :P

Mind you, if you are able to shell out over £400 for season tickets then you are playing fast and loose with the word "poor".

Edited by oaksoft
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4 hours ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:
7 hours ago, jaybee said:

So; if you "was prepared to take a generous view of Tony's earlier pronouncements" earlier, what's the problem now? Bottle gone? Joined Elvis or the other side? I don't know if you actually listened to where the quote was taken from or not but taking someone's words and printing what was said leaves a massive hole that is called context.  My understanding is that JG is not someone who will be unduly concerned with such statements especially given that he apparently seems to be somewhat more insightful than some others on this site and whilst I hate to agree with Shull, his thoughts that we should always be aiming for the top are valid as is TF's statement that JG would not have been offered the job if he wa simply aiming to survive. I fully appreciate and understand your rationale to "stabilise the club and consolidate and improve each season for a few years"  nothing wrong with that, however to begin a season with tenth as a target to finish is simply wrong.

The previous occasion when Tony mentioned a top 4 finish was at the end of the season and when we had only last to Celtic (1st), Kilmarnock (3rd) and St Johnstone (7th) in the final 3 months and shown form towards the end of the season which would have had us near the top 6 if we had shown it throughout the whole season.

Since he made those statements Jimmy Nicholl (first team coach / assistant manager) left at the end of his contract and we sacked the manager. We are behind all the other clubs in the league in terms of signing our squad for this season - 2 players from last season have re-signed so far, but we could be without Popescu and Muzek from last year's defence, at this point in time Dreyer and McAllister and Lyons have returned to their parent clubs and most fans would identify the forward positions as the key areas to strengthen the team from last year.

Whether or not Goodwin would feel pressure based on Tony's statements alone, who can say. I would reckon, at a guess, that any pressure is more likely to come from Gordon Scott, who has previously stated similar ambitions for our league position and added he wants to see an entertaining side on the park and he is also getting a reputation for being quick to fire managers (Alex Rae got about 2 months under Scott, Alan Stubbs had 3 months and Oran Kearney 9 months). It is also possible the comments could put pressure on the players if we have a slow start and the team aren't meeting the board or fans expectations.

I haven't lost my bottle at all but do think TF and GLS's comments repeating comments about top 6 finishes / qualifying for Europe would be better timed if they had waited until we'd had a season or two to settle into the top division and showed signs of progress before broadcasting the club's ambitions publicly. 

Most neutrals would have expected it would be easier for clubs the size of RIFC, Hearts and Hibs to make the leap from promotion from the Championship to the top 6 in the premiership because of the size and strength in depth of the squads they alread had allied to having much bigger budgets to attract top 6 players to their clubs compared with ourselves.

Really not looking for a long winded argument here, but I rather think you have missed or avoided my particular point re " I don't know if you actually listened to where the quote was taken from or not but taking someone's words and printing what was said leaves a massive hole that is called context. I did listen to that interview and the difference in what he said and the interpretation you and most people are responding to, is considerable. THAT was my  point which you simply ignored and moreover your perception that pressure (on JG) is liable to come from GS because he wants to see an entertaining side on the park (what's wrong with that?) and that he is also getting a reputation for being quick to fire managers. Really? You say "Alex Rae got about 2 months under Scott,"  who since he did not employ him and he had bought the club;  simply choose to change the manager and hire someone else, Jack Ross; mmm bad choice? I think not.  Stubbs got three months; very true, until it became clear he really didn't have what was needed to succeed and got the boot and rightly so in most people's opinion. As for OK I certainly don't know what happened, I thought he did as was requested and kept us up, but hey I don't own the club. My point being that much of your response above does not rebut anything that I said but tries to support the notion that GS is being as unrealistic as TF and even if he is that is his prerogative, certainly he is more likely to be disappointed than elated but still his choice  The perception that clubs always perform relative to their financial standing is simply not true, there are countless examples to debunk the concept; because otherwise football would be boring. Unlike this Forum at times. 

 

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3 hours ago, Paisleyporridge said:

I think the jury is very much out on our prospects:

Reasons to be cheerful:

We have manager who has strong affinity with the club, some proven management ability and deep knowledge of Scottish football. 

Our squad should have a bit of a feel good factor having survived and done well in the last 10 games or so of the season. 

Some players look like they have stepped up to Premiership level. Mullen, Cooke, Flynn come to mind. And Magennis should be back to full effectiveness. Mackenzie too, if he can stay fit.

BUT. our manager is unproven at this level and there is a heck of a lot of work to be done to supplement the squad before season starts.  We have thrown the dice in all of the last three transfer windows. It worked for Jack. It failed for Stubbs (admittedly his judgement was poor). It worked for Oran, just. It feels like we are about to throw the dice again to recruit another 6 or 7 players to make up the squad-perhaps with another throw in January.

All in all, I am not optimistic for the coming season.  I think we have one dice throw left to secure a chance at stability in this league. 50/50 I’d say of surviving/getting relegated. 

A 50/50 chance you suggest. Probably better odds than at the start of last season then. I am looking forward to the season ahead. I watched Alloa a few times and Jim had them working well as a team against full time opposition and kept them up. 

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41 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

A 50/50 chance you suggest. Probably better odds than at the start of last season then. I am looking forward to the season ahead. I watched Alloa a few times and Jim had them working well as a team against full time opposition and kept them up. 

Yes Ricky- about the same maybe.  Although many of us, including me, were still hopeful that Stubbs was going to be a good appointment. I expect us to start the season in better shape than we did last year- for my reasons to be cheerful above; and that Goodwin’s recruitment can only be better. 

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Just now, Slartibartfast said:

You're the one that brought it up, what's your point.

You should really check up on it and compare our success under those with the experience against those without. Once you've done that, it should be apparent what my point is.

I did not bring up the comparison with previous managers- that was your contribution. So I’m asking you what your point was?

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19 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

I believe that you learn better if you do your own research rather that getting force fed facts so it's better if you look it up yourself.

Even if I told you, you should still really check it yourself to see if I'm correct. I'm just letting you go straight to that part without the needless middle bit.

Never take anyone's word for anything (you shouldn't even take my word that you should never take anyone's word for anything, and you shouldn't even take my word that you shouldn't even take my word that you should never take anyone's word for anything, ...).

Besides that, others have mentioned it before, all you need to do is scour this forum (just ignore anything from Top Cat and LPM, though).

You have tried the Socratic method of teaching here.

IMO this is the only sustainable way for people to learn anything properly but I have yet to meet anyone who didn't get angry, defensive and dismissive when they are faced with it.

I genuinely wonder why that is.

Perhaps people just don't like being confronted by their own shortcomings and take the easy route of blaming the questionner for making them feel foolish.

Edited by oaksoft
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