Scum Hamas Terrorists Slaughter Jews In Israel

[shull]

Evil

Edited October 12, 2023 by shull

[shull]

 

[W6er]

This kicked off over a century ago with the Balfour Declaration which ultimately led to the displacement of the settled population, who feel aggrieved. The two state solution is the only way to settle this, but is not happening with continued Israeli expansion into the West Bank. The fact that any future Palestinian state would also comprise two non-contiguous regions (Gaza and what remains of the West Bank) means that it's not really feasible any more.

US aid to Israel alone is $3.8 billion per year (1) to a country that has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (2).

This is an interesting map which shows the displacement: https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html

 

My guess is that Israel will now exact a bloody revenge for last night's attack. I really hope I'm wrong, though.

 

(1)  https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/

(2) https://armscontrolcenter.org/countries/israel/

 

[StanleySaint]

I was going to post if there was any country likely to retaliate and do so swiftly and to devastating effect it would be Israel, I fear @W6er will be correct.

[W6er]

The western mainstream news seems to continually mention the Israeli death toll, which is now believed to be over 100, but the BBC also reports this:

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67037895

It doesn't say over what period that figure is calculated. However, if one is to assume it's over the past 24 hours then it would appear far more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis. So it would appear Israel is already taking revenge.

[antrin]

And I would also like to point out the distorted way in which any Zionist action is being represented, on here - as well as in the mainstream media.

Any retaliation should surely be recognised as - the attack by the underfunded, outnumbered Palestinians who struck back at their occupiers?  

It’s not the Israeli forces doing the retaliation.

The reaction from the Zionist occupying forces will be massive and brutal in order to suppress further retaliation.

 

it’s appalling.

[Jockmd]

Back to the clichéd politician response, 'Israel has the right to defend itself'. 

The media will never ask politicians, 'Does the Palestinians have the right to fight for their freedom.'  

[eastlandssaint]

Israel-Palestine latest news: US to send warships and cruisers to help Israel (msn.com)

[Jockmd]

13 minutes ago, eastlandssaint said:

Israel-Palestine latest news: US to send warships and cruisers to help Israel (msn.com)

Ridiculous.

Why don't they do that for Ukraine?  Because they are bullies. Well, they do send military aid to the Ukraine who are under part-Russian occupation but they support the Israeli occupation 100%.

[Hunterian]

On 10/7/2023 at 4:19 PM, W6er said:

This kicked off over a century ago with the Balfour Declaration which ultimately led to the displacement of the settled population, who feel aggrieved. The two state solution is the only way to settle this, but is not happening with continued Israeli expansion into the West Bank. The fact that any future Palestinian state would also comprise two non-contiguous regions (Gaza and what remains of the West Bank) means that it's not really feasible any more.

US aid to Israel alone is $3.8 billion per year (1) to a country that has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (2).

This is an interesting map which shows the displacement: https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html

 

My guess is that Israel will now exact a bloody revenge for last night's attack. I really hope I'm wrong, though.

 

(1)  https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/

(2) https://armscontrolcenter.org/countries/israel/

 

Absolutely right but anybody thinking this is a black and white matter (pun unintended) is naive.

It’s a brutal and bloody history with many twists and turns. Flying a Palestinian flag in support is no more sensible than flying one with a Star of David.

Plenty of literature on this but it’s a mess.

[Slarti]

Ridiculous.
Why don't they do that for Ukraine?  Because they are bullies. Well, they do send military aid to the Ukraine who are under part-Russian occupation but they support the Israeli occupation 100%.

It's a religious thing.

There are many in the US (mainly Evangelicals, who are now the largest Christian group in the US) who believe that they have to support Israel as it is important for Israel to exist to bring "The Rapture" and "Second Coming".

They're basically just nutters.

[W6er]

45 minutes ago, Slarti said:

It's a religious thing.

There are many in the US (mainly Evangelicals, who are now the largest Christian group in the US) who believe that they have to support Israel as it is important for Israel to exist to bring "The Rapture" and "Second Coming".

They're basically just nutters.

Partly true. It's more the influence of AIPAC, IMHO, which is arguably the second biggest lobby group in the US.

The whole Christian Zionist phenomenon is much bigger in the US and something I have never understood. My girlfriend and her mother told me they believe the Jews are God's "chosen people" and therefore it's the duty of Christians to support Israel. Indeed, the Bible does state that, but it's the Old Testament. They seem to have skipped over the bit where...well, let's just say that led to Jesus' crucifixion. 

Traditional Christianity was hardly pro-Zionist. Indeed, Pre-Vatican II Catholicism has been described as anti-Semitic, this is borne out by the likes of Fathers Coughlin, Feeney and Fahey , whose speeches and writings are considered deeply anti-Semitic. Indeed much of Vatican II was devoted to addressing this. Even so, I don't believe the Catholic Church even recognised Israel until the 1990s.

Christian Zionism seems to be a relatively modern concept, though that's perhaps not surprising given Israel as a state was founded in 1947(?). I categorise it along with the Prosperity Gospel - where people who give money to God (via their 'church') are blessed with wealth. I'm going off on a tangent here, but I was staying in a hotel in London a few years back and this guy came out of the neighbouring conference suite, covered in gold and other ostentatious displays of wealth (Roles, designer clothes, etc). He was followed out by a lot of fawning admirers before eventually getting in a Lamborghini and driving off. I assumed he was a musician of perhaps a sportsmen or something and asked one of his groupies about him. I was informed he was their pastor. 

The Bible has been distorted to such an extent by some unscrupulous people, that its message has been turned on its head. 

[Slarti]

Partly true. It's more the influence of AIPAC, IMHO, which is arguably the second biggest lobby group in the US.
The whole Christian Zionist phenomenon is much bigger in the US and something I have never understood. My girlfriend and her mother told me they believe the Jews are God's "chosen people" and therefore it's the duty of Christians to support Israel. Indeed, the Bible does state that, but it's the Old Testament. They seem to have skipped over the bit where...well, let's just say that led to Jesus' crucifixion. 
Traditional Christianity was hardly pro-Zionist. Indeed, Pre-Vatican II Catholicism has been described as anti-Semitic, this is borne out by the likes of Fathers Coughlin, Feeney and Fahey , whose speeches and writings are considered deeply anti-Semitic. Indeed much of Vatican II was devoted to addressing this. Even so, I don't believe the Catholic Church even recognised Israel until the 1990s.
Christian Zionism seems to be a relatively modern concept, though that's perhaps not surprising given Israel as a state was founded in 1947(?). I categorise it along with the Prosperity Gospel - where people who give money to God (via their 'church') are blessed with wealth. I'm going off on a tangent here, but I was staying in a hotel in London a few years back and this guy came out of the neighbouring conference suite, covered in gold and other ostentatious displays of wealth (Roles, designer clothes, etc). He was followed out by a lot of fawning admirers before eventually getting in a Lamborghini and driving off. I assumed he was a musician of perhaps a sportsmen or something and asked one of his groupies about him. I was informed he was their pastor. 
The Bible has been distorted to such an extent by some unscrupulous people, that its message has been turned on its head. 

It apparently stems from the 1830s - can't recall the guy's name - so relatively modern.

Prosperity gospel (Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland etc) is just con-men fleecing folk.

The problem with the bible is that it is so self contradictory that passages from it can be used to support almost any position. It doesn't help that there are so many versions of it.

It's literally impossible to follow all of the rules from the bible.

Most (possibly all) religious texts are the same.

Anyway, far enough down this rabbit hole for tonight.

[Jockmd]

1 hour ago, Slarti said:

It's a religious thing.

There are many in the US (mainly Evangelicals, who are now the largest Christian group in the US) who believe that they have to support Israel as it is important for Israel to exist to bring "The Rapture" and "Second Coming".

They're basically just nutters.

True, but its not the main aspect of the issue. 

The main one is a colonial reality which began at the end of the 18th century when the father of Zionism, Theodor Herzl  had consulted with Britain's prime colonialist, Cecil Rhodes to establish a Jewish state in Palestine. 

Today,  colonial Jews are still emigrating to the Palestinian West Bank and evicting, by military means, the indigenous people from their homes and land. 

[W6er]

5 hours ago, Slarti said:

It apparently stems from the 1830s - can't recall the guy's name - so relatively modern.

Prosperity gospel (Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland etc) is just con-men fleecing folk.

The problem with the bible is that it is so self contradictory that passages from it can be used to support almost any position. It doesn't help that there are so many versions of it.

It's literally impossible to follow all of the rules from the bible.

Most (possibly all) religious texts are the same.

Anyway, far enough down this rabbit hole for tonight.

I disagree. Christianity has a consistent theme. The the creator of the universe was born a man (paradoxically, both fully man and fully God) in a stable, that he led a humble life and died the painful death of a slave (see Tom Holland's Dominion). He washed his disciples' feet, remember. He wasn't even a good looking man:

Isaiah 53: 2-5

Quote

He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
³ He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

⁴ Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
⁵ But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.

 

Jesus did not pursue money, he was not concerned with wealth. As far as I'm aware, only the parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30) is used as justification for the Prosperity Gospel. It seems pretty obvious, to me at least, that's about putting one's God given talents to use (the Master is God) and not being idle, which is NOT the same as making money.

If you can be bothered @Slarti, read the Book of James, it will take you about 10 mins and is full of wisdom (5 chapters, each a 2 minute read).  

 

5 hours ago, Jockmd said:

True, but its not the main aspect of the issue. 

The main one is a colonial reality which began at the end of the 18th century when the father of Zionism, Theodor Herzl  had consulted with Britain's prime colonialist, Cecil Rhodes to establish a Jewish state in Palestine. 

Today,  colonial Jews are still emigrating to the Palestinian West Bank and evicting, by military means, the indigenous people from their homes and land. 

 

Indeed. Has anybody ever actually read the Balfour Declaration?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/israel_and_the_palestinians/key_documents/1682961.stm

It was written to an international banker in 1917, when the UK was fighting the Great War. It has been argued that it was likely payment either for bringing the US into the war or for financing it. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by W6er

[Slarti]

True, but its not the main aspect of the issue. 
The main one is a colonial reality which began at the end of the 18th century when the father of Zionism, Theodor Herzl  had consulted with Britain's prime colonialist, Cecil Rhodes to establish a Jewish state in Palestine. 
Today,  colonial Jews are still emigrating to the Palestinian West Bank and evicting, by military means, the indigenous people from their homes and land. 

I was just stating why the US supports Israel 100%, not what the main issue in the region was. Most politicians in the US (at least the "powerful" ones) are Evangelicals of one hue or another.

Plus the US doesn't like admitting they got something wrong, they just throw more money or military at it.

[Slarti]

 
I disagree. Christianity has a consistent theme. The the creator of the universe was born a man (paradoxically, both fully man and fully God) in a stable, that he led a humble life and died the painful death of a slave (see Tom Holland's Dominion). He washed his disciples' feet, remember. He wasn't even a good looking man:
Isaiah 53: 2-5

IIRC, that follows on from God talking about "his people" being persecuted by the Assyrians (?) in Egypt and being led out. It is obviously not a prophecy of Jesus. Even if it was, the Gospel writers (well, just the writers of Mark and John really as Matthew and Luke are just copies of Mark with supernatural embellishments and some minor changes) would have had access to Isaiah and would have been able to tailor their stories accordingly.

[W6er]

1 hour ago, Slarti said:

I was just stating why the US supports Israel 100%, not what the main issue in the region was. Most politicians in the US (at least the "powerful" ones) are Evangelicals of one hue or another.

Plus the US doesn't like admitting they got something wrong, they just throw more money or military at it.

Evangelicals? 🤔

https://www.timesofisrael.com/all-the-jews-biden-has-tapped-for-top-roles-in-his-new-administration/

 

1 hour ago, Slarti said:

 

 

IIRC, that follows on from God talking about "his people" being persecuted by the Assyrians (?) in Egypt and being led out. It is obviously not a prophecy of Jesus. Even if it was, the Gospel writers (well, just the writers of Mark and John really as Matthew and Luke are just copies of Mark with supernatural embellishments and some minor changes) would have had access to Isaiah and would have been able to tailor their stories accordingly.

 

Indeed they would have had access to the Old Testament. What is truly remarkable is the meaning of the genealogy in Genesis.  

[Slarti]

48 minutes ago, W6er said:

Evangelicals? 🤔

https://www.timesofisrael.com/all-the-jews-biden-has-tapped-for-top-roles-in-his-new-administration/

 

Indeed they would have had access to the Old Testament. What is truly remarkable is the meaning of the genealogy in Genesis.  

Biden is a Roman Catholic, not an Evangelical protestant.  What's your point?

 

The meaning of the genealogy in Genesis?  It's an attempt to show that the Jews are direct descendants of Adam (who didn't exist - at least in the biblical sense).  Are you talking about something else?

 

The Messiah was supposed to be a direct descendent of David but Jesus wasn't as it was Joseph that was supposedly descended from David, not Mary, and the bible goes out of its way to say that Joseph wasn't Jesus' auld man.

[shull]

 

[W6er]

31 minutes ago, Slarti said:

Biden is a Roman Catholic, not an Evangelical protestant.  What's your point?

 

The meaning of the genealogy in Genesis?  It's an attempt to show that the Jews are direct descendants of Adam (who didn't exist - at least in the biblical sense).  Are you talking about something else?

 

The Messiah was supposed to be a direct descendent of David but Jesus wasn't as it was Joseph that was supposedly descended from David, not Mary, and the bible goes out of its way to say that Joseph wasn't Jesus' auld man.

So the president of the US and many others in top positions are not Evangelicals, then? How many of them actually are? I would say that America's foreign policy has largely been influenced by the Wolfowitz Doctrine and Paul Wolfowitz is not an Evangelical, either. If you assert something it's good practice to evidence it.  

The meaning of the names from the genealogy in Genesis is very interesting: https://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/284/

The human Jesus' father is God, the creator of the universe - that's an impressive enough lineage, IMHO. However, legally I would imagine he'd inherit his earthly father's lineage, particularly as it was not known that Joseph wasn't his biological father. 

[beyond our ken]

Biden is actually quite a liberal Catholic as demonstrated by his stance on birth control and access to abortion

I'm afraid that for the U.K. and USA it’s only about the money that funds election campaigns 

did anyone se Cleverly (what a misnomer) in telly declaring that any Israeli response would be proportionate? Sickening bassa!

[beyond our ken]

On 10/7/2023 at 4:19 PM, W6er said:

This kicked off over a century ago with the Balfour Declaration which ultimately led to the displacement of the settled population, who feel aggrieved. The two state solution is the only way to settle this, but is not happening with continued Israeli expansion into the West Bank. The fact that any future Palestinian state would also comprise two non-contiguous regions (Gaza and what remains of the West Bank) means that it's not really feasible any more.

US aid to Israel alone is $3.8 billion per year (1) to a country that has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (2).

This is an interesting map which shows the displacement: https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html

 

My guess is that Israel will now exact a bloody revenge for last night's attack. I really hope I'm wrong, though.

 

(1)  https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/

(2) https://armscontrolcenter.org/countries/israel/

 

My own belief is that Netanyahu got his Hanecke present early and will use the situation to drive the Gazans into the med 

ooor people used as pawns between 2 bands of Zealots

it a horrible life for these guys and it is little wonder the youth are continually radicalised by the conflict, which suits Hamas and the Israelis just fine

 

[ALBIONSAINT]

It’s the biggest 😂

 

[ALBIONSAINT]

https://youtu.be/QhaY1hRDYBg?si=wQu3wLqzsQOU3t_D