The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[Guest somner9]

Why not?

I know the club board will have a certain number, but if the club board isn't there to act upon the democratic view of the community on major decisions then you really have to ask what the hell any individual member will actually get out of paying their £10 a month aside from a members bar and the plastic perception of being involved when you actually aren't. That feeling is better known as the Myfootballclub experience, just for the record.

The club board majority of 52% will be made up by the CIC. "Shall we draw down £XK from the club?" - A CIC decision. So, 36 with one vote each against 300 with one vote each (in conspiracy blunderland)...that 336 directing the direction of the 52%.

I'll be honest and say that if it's not going to work like above then it creates real questions for myself.

the membership board for 10000 hours do not control the prposed 52% shareholding, thats controlled by the CiC, and who it has on the club board. the 10000 hours membership board represents the corporate, community and individuals, but it is not directly represented on the club board. ultimate control of the CiC lies with its directors, it doesnt as is currently proposed have shareholders, least to say in the document made available its not offering out the chance to take share in it,

[TsuMirren]

the membership board for 10000 hours do not control the prposed 52% shareholding, thats controlled by the CiC, and who it has on the club board. the 10000 hours membership board represents the corporate, community and individuals, but it is not directly represented on the club board. ultimate control of the CiC lies with its directors, it doesnt as is currently proposed have shareholders, least to say in the document made available its not offering out the chance to take share in it,

I'll put it another way then, as you're going down the CIC board running things and walking over the club board route.

If the corporate, community and individuals members are not voting on important club issues, the results of which are implemented by the club board (however that's made up), then I'd advise fans not to join. To take that even further, if the CIC Board want to make a decision such as drawing down from the club without going to the club board and the club board then don't put it to the membership then again I'd advise people not to join. Indeed, I'd advise Richard to not implement a structure that is going to so obviously take the power away from the fans and other community members when they are offering EXACTLY that sort of power in the two hands currently being held out. I can't think, for one second, I'm alone in that viewpoint.

That said, discussions I had with Richard didn't point towards the finances of the club being anything close to a piggy bank and he also spoke of the facilities we have directly adding to the money available to be spent "on the pitch".

[Guest somner9]

I'll put it another way then, as you're going down the CIC board running things and walking over the club board route.

If the corporate, community and individuals members are not voting on important club issues, the results of which are implemented by the club board (however that's made up), then I'd advise fans not to join. To take that even further, if the CIC Board want to make a decision such as drawing down from the club without going to the club board and the club board then don't put it to the membership then again I'd advise people not to join. Indeed, I'd advise Richard to not implement a structure that is going to so obviously take the power away from the fans and other community members when they are offering EXACTLY that sort of power in the two hands currently being held out. I can't think, for one second, I'm alone in that viewpoint.

That said, discussions I had with Richard didn't point towards the finances of the club being anything close to a piggy bank and he also spoke of the facilities we have directly adding to the money available to be spent "on the pitch".

the CiC dont need to walk over the club board as they would hold the majority

i respect discussions you have had with Richard, and i am sure he and his colleagues are sincere in their endeavours. however if the company (CiC) needs to service its debt then it can only do so from the avenues open to it. this 10000 hours have been open about means the enhanced trading of the club and the membership.

if that doesn't meet the need where else are they going to get the required money from?

no one starts a company wishing it to suffer hard times, but in this case when they come it will be like a hitchhiker on the back of SMFC dipping its coat pocket to pay a share of the petrol bill

[TsuMirren]

the CiC dont need to walk over the club board as they would hold the majority

i respect discussions you have had with Richard, and i am sure he and his colleagues are sincere in their endeavours. however if the company (CiC) needs to service its debt then it can only do so from the avenues open to it. this 10000 hours have been open about means the enhanced trading of the club and the membership.

if that doesn't meet the need where else are they going to get the required money from?

no one starts a company wishing it to suffer hard times, but in this case when they come it will be like a hitchhiker on the back of SMFC dipping its coat pocket to pay a share of the petrol bill

Fair enough, you think they'll come dipping their hand in and I don't. History proves that if that happens in ventures like this then membership numbers plummet and indeed anyone involved, in this case community or corporate organisations, in the decision could find their business suffer also. To me it just wouldn't make sense for the CIC to start taking money out of the club pot, even if in the form of a soft loan.

[St. Sid]

if you buy something for £2m and you don,t have £2m, but you borrow it or someone gives you it its debt until its paid. 10000 hours starts with a debt of £2m albeit it has assurances and a business plan to pay it back it still starts with a BIG negative on the balance sheet

where are all these knights on chargers/mavericks that want to throw £2m quid at a spl football club (i.e. down the cludgy)

I am trying to see the point you are trying to make but still don't get it. Are you saying that you are concerned about the period between the CIC taking over and the finance coming through causing some paper debt between the consortium and the CIC or are you trying to say that this will in some way cost the CIC or the club money? I genuinley don't understand your concern on this?

I sort of see your point about it perhaps taking time to see the benefits filtering through to on field activities - don't agree with it, but understand the concern. The imagined £2m debt issue just seems bizarre?

[St. Sid]

the CiC dont need to walk over the club board as they would hold the majority

i respect discussions you have had with Richard, and i am sure he and his colleagues are sincere in their endeavours. however if the company (CiC) needs to service its debt then it can only do so from the avenues open to it. this 10000 hours have been open about means the enhanced trading of the club and the membership.

if that doesn't meet the need where else are they going to get the required money from?

no one starts a company wishing it to suffer hard times, but in this case when they come it will be like a hitchhiker on the back of SMFC dipping its coat pocket to pay a share of the petrol bill

There's nothing wrong with taking a look at the worst case scenario and it is certainly worth exploring. However, you need to be careful of what you mean by this. Under the CIC structure none of the assets of St Mirren FC could be touched in relation to payment of the CIC soft loans. I would have thought that the current operational income of St Mirren would be considered to be assets of St Mirren Ltd and therefore untouchable by the CIC. That I think would include season ticket sales, etc.

The grants don't need to be paid back and I reckon that will account for a significant % of the £2M. I would also expect the soft loans to be ringfenced through the business plan / applications. I think you are over egging the threat again, if there is one at all. At the risk of appearing patronising, again why not ask a question such as, "Who is responsible for the repayment of the CIC Soft Loans and what would be the ramifications for the CIC / Club should the CIC income from corporate, community and general members fall short?" and perhaps a second question, "The CIC funding applications relate to the £2M purchase of shares, will further CIC initiatives be protected from any shortfall in payments towards the share purchase soft loans?"

They are good questions; let's give the CIC guys a chance to answer them before forming entrenched opinion on the proposals - which are f'k'n majik by the way.

[bluto]

B&WArmy has a long history of character assassinations - characters being aliases of course. Many aliases have indeed stormed off in the huff. The reality is that the St Sid alias has supported far more aliases, managers, players, BoDs, etc who have been getting a hard time. St Sid is a paragon of virtue and you know it.

Any history of character assassination is all yours.

Back on topic.

What might sway me into parting with £120 pa?

Belief that it might help St Mirren or even the local community.

What might help me believe in that?

The answers to questions, discussions and opinions put forward on these pages - and I've been following them.

Coincidentally, I've been following the debate on the AV Voting system.

As mentioned on another thread about that, another intolerant plastic Paddy (just like St Sid), the war-mongering John Reid is in favour of the old system. So I know it must be immoral and wrong.

Similarly, witnessing Sid's avid support for the CiC allied with the typical abusive manner in which he attacks anyone who offers criticism or opposing opinion convinces me that there's something rotten at CiC's core.

the proposals - which are f'k'n majik by the way.

Aye, right.

I'm out.

Edited April 19, 2011 by bluto

[spirit of 77]

Maybe in future, if the cic is extremely successful, there would be a seperate 10000 hours charity pot fund - funded from the cic income - for the community members to apply to use for various events, ie maybe a church group would have a kids Xmas party paid for from the fund. Any applications would be decided by the members board, just like any other funding body - it would probably operate like a credit union.

Nobody takes anything financially from these community groups anyway so to imply that they would be profiting out of it without any evidence is a bit of paranoid scaremongery.

Even without the possibility of this until maybe a year or two down the line, for these community groups, even being part of the cic could be to their advantage. The contacts network within the cic could be put to good use - a skills trade for example - and they would actually be contributing towards a greater community, which has maybe been lost lately, as opposed to being an isolated group.

Some of the major criticisms of community companies formed using public money have been the level of salaries paid to directors, the apointment of family members as employees on inflated salaries, the misuse of funds and questionble decisions made regarding the placing of contracts. i would suggest that quite a lot of money can be made in these circumstances

Edited April 19, 2011 by spirit of 77

[Bud the Baker]

We definitely run one of the tightest ships in the pro game up here.

Erm, not over seasons 2008/09 & 2009/10 when Wages were 76% of our Income.

[Reynard]

Erm, not over seasons 2008/09 & 2009/10 when Wages were 76% of our Income.

How much debt did we rack up doing this?

[10000hours]

the membership board for 10000 hours do not control the prposed 52% shareholding,

You are incorrect under the proposed corporate structure.

The Elected members board will control the voting rights of the 52% shareholding.

It will be the elected members board that becuase of its control of the voting rights of the shares will be able to nominate and elect to the board of St Mirren FC

10000hours CIC

[Bud the Baker]

How much debt did we rack up doing this?

£860,000

...............and there we have it, the circle squared.

[Reynard]

£860,000

...............and there we have it, the circle squared.

So we have nearly a million pounds worth of debt do we? Owed to who?

I don't think you can read a set of accounts.

[spirit of 77]

I think actions speak louder than words and the action of setting up provan sports to endorse 10000 hours (what a posey title) then ditching the company is a clear indication of the character of the persons seeking to take control of the club.

I'd advocate resistance, but it's probably already too late.

[civilsaint]

I think actions speak louder than words and the action of setting up provan sports to endorse 10000 hours (what a posey title) then ditching the company is a clear indication of the character of the persons seeking to take control of the club.

Do you know this to be a true reflection of events?

[Big Fras]

Do you know this to be a true reflection of events?

I don't think this is what happened at all. As far as I know, PSL had a contract with SMFC which was up for renewal. For whatever reasons, it was decided to go different ways. AWP posted about this in his "farewell" thread. I've spoken to Al, and he certainly has no issues with the CIC bid, having been aware of it for obvious reasons (ie. dealing with RA on a daily basis) for some time, henceforth the backing "in print".

To be honest, I think most people hope it works, but quite a few are naturally worried/sceptical of how it will work, probably given the lack of detailed information thus far (bar the recent pdf). We'll all be much the wiser after the meetings...........which for the sake of ease, Div should film and stick on this sub-forum......it may save a lot of typing

No business is ever run perfectly, and a lot of good ideas are being generated at the moment, many of which should still hopefully be carried out if the bid doesn't work. I think it will, mainly for the reasons that almost uniquely, there are (apparently) no predators watching proceedings, and that the current BoD want to get out.....yet this deal may offer them the chance to get out, yet still be heavily involved but with much less personal risk. Entirely understandable. This situation certainly narows down the chasm of the private sector fiscal requirement, and if RA has some "big guns with small change" lined up, then it could happen with comparitive ease.

Then the administraive fun begins......

Jeff Stelling:"St.Mirren's game is off today, due to double-booking with a wedding, bowls AGM and Renfrewshire Line-Dancing Q/F. Police levels were too stretched and the game is OFF. What do you make of that Charlie ?"

[spirit of 77]

Do you know this to be a true reflection of events?

Alan Provan's endorsement of the CIC is in the information booklet, perhaps the new owners did tell him he was unlikely to win the new contract when they asked for this endorsement.

perhaps.

JD sports also endorsed the project and subsequently won the contract.

wan in, wan out, as they say.

PS are JD sports lined up as a corporate member of the CIC?

[davidg]

Alan Provan's endorsement of the CIC is in the information booklet, perhaps the new owners did tell him he was unlikely to win the new contract when they asked for this endorsement.

perhaps.

JD sports also endorsed the project and subsequently won the contract.

wan in, wan out, as they say.

Perhaps 2+2=5?

Edited April 19, 2011 by davidg

[Drew]

Alan Provan's endorsement of the CIC is in the information booklet, perhaps the new owners did tell him he was unlikely to win the new contract when they asked for this endorsement.

perhaps.

JD sports also endorsed the project and subsequently won the contract.

wan in, wan out, as they say.

PS are JD sports lined up as a corporate member of the CIC?

What you are saying is potentially defamatory. As soon as you include the word 'perhaps', I would suggest that you, perhaps, reconsider whether to post as you did above

[Big Fras]

Alan Provan's endorsement of the CIC is in the information booklet, perhaps the new owners did tell him he was unlikely to win the new contract when they asked for this endorsement.

perhaps.

JD sports also endorsed the project and subsequently won the contract.

wan in, wan out, as they say.

PS are JD sports lined up as a corporate member of the CIC?

As far as I know and have read,PSL had a contract with St.Mirren FC, regardless of who the owners were. Provans could walk at the end of the contract, or SMFC could opt for another way. None of this had anything to do with the CIC bid. It was between the current BoD (admittedly of which RA is a member) and PSL.

Provans deal with other sporting clubs in their merchandising (eg. Mo'well - and how Big Al must have enjoyed their S/F win !!), and I would imagine that it is a policy not to "rock the boat", as these things get noticed by other clubs. Saying that, Alan is a big lad, and I'm sure didn't need his arm twisting into backing the CIC bid. All things considered, it certainly puts him and PSL in a positive light given everything that's gone on.

I'm pretty sure that its been mentioned elsewhere that JD Sports will be a backer.....but let that come from the horse's mouth. Apologies to RA, I'm not suggesting you are a Ruud Van Nistelrooy lookalike, buit its polite compared to some previous comments

[pozbaird]

The suggestion that Provan Sports were ditched as the club's retail partner because they refused to back the CIC plan, while Carbrini @ JD Sports won the kit contract because they did is possibly the biggest load of old shite I've read on here in a long time.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Concerning the proposed matchday bar:

1- will there be tables and seating?

2- Will there be Sky/ESPN TV? (this I believe is a necessity to attract custom, before and after the game)

3- Who will staff the bar?

4- What are the proposed hours?

Thanks.

1= Only carpet mats will be supplied you will be more than welcome to sit on them

2= Nope

3= Johnny , Betty and Susan don't wory if you dont know them you soon will.

4 = Sat 11am to 12pm other days will have other times

Honestly is all that you are thinking about a bar. Although plans have been drawn up I would think the 10.000 hours team at this moment in time are caught up in more important things.

[Drew]

1= Only carpet mats will be supplied you will be more than welcome to sit on them

2= Nope

3= Johnny , Betty and Susan don't wory if you dont know them you soon will.

4 = Sat 11am to 12pm other days will have other times

Honestly is all that you are thinking about a bar. Although plans have been drawn up I would think the 10.000 hours team at this moment in time are caught up in more important things.

As the matchday bar is one of the offered incentives to become an individual member, why are these questions anything other than reasonable (even if the CIC aren't in a position to provide all the answers just yet)?

[Big Fras]

The suggestion that Provan Sports were ditched as the club's retail partner because they refused to back the CIC plan, while Carbrini @ JD Sports won the kit contract because they did is possibly the biggest load of old shite I've read on here in a long time.

....as I tried to point out without such foul language. I'm outraged, shocked and horrified at such profanities. You'll never get a book published potty-mouth

[Seaside Nipper]

1= Only carpet mats will be supplied you will be more than welcome to sit on them

2= Nope

3= Johnny , Betty and Susan don't wory if you dont know them you soon will.

4 = Sat 11am to 12pm other days will have other times

Honestly is all that you are thinking about a bar. Although plans have been drawn up I would think the 10.000 hours team at this moment in time are caught up in more important things.

Whit !!

A bar is a must have ...............look at the surrounding area , just bustin with amenities, not.

I would think a bar facility along the lines of the very successful Fir Park club was a no brainer for match days. I mean honestly, imagine, a provincial diddy club with a community / match day bar, what a eureka moment. Its not an onerous logistical exercise, more a commercial opportunity that frankly should be simplicity itself.....................oh no wait, hang on , here comes Plod to allegedly stymie this consideration as well