The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[Reynard]

If the CIC goes tits-up, I assume that they can sell all or part of the 52% shareholding??

Or do 'contributors' to the CIC have a claim to any of the shares? As in, Big Company A pays £15k a year - what do they get for their money??

What happens to the other 48% of shareholders? Do we/they just sit tight and watch now or do these shares now become a waste of time or something if the club is in perpetual ownership of the CIC? Will the CIC own the entire shareholding at some point or will they dilute the shares by issuing more and buying them up for themselves? Or won't they ever need to?

[Drew]

I'm no salesman, but if I were to offer one bit of advice to Mr Atkinson and colleagues, I would suggest that they make every effort to frame their pitch very much in the context of football. Fostering community involvement is fine, and very laudible and all that, but I follow St Mirren because I'm a football fan, and I suspect that this applies to the vast majority of those who the CiC will be targetting.

Sure, reference has been made to increasing revenue through the utilisation of the club's resources and facilities, but we could do with greater emphasis being placed upon how this will benefit the playing side of things, and enhance that particular 'product'. That must be at the heart of this, after all....mustn't it?

This is probably my greatest concern. Mr Atkinson isn't a football man. I hope it's not simply the case that he has more enthusiasm and passion for the CiC initiative, than he does for seeing St Mirren Football Club succeed on the field of play. They are not mutually exclusive, of course, by I want to hear about how this benefits the team, and is likely to genuinely enhance what we turn up to watch on a Saturday afternoon.

I've just finished reading The Miracle of Castel di Sangro - a book that charts the meteoric rise of a provincial club from a small town of 5,000 in Italy, to secure a place in Serie B. It is an incredible story, but, at times, it seems that the football is almost a sideshow. This mustn't be allowed to happen at St Mirren, in my opinion. It's a good read, BTW, even though the US author can be a bit of a twat at times.

[TsuMirren]

I'm no salesman, but if I were to offer one bit of advice to Mr Atkinson and colleagues, I would suggest that they make every effort to frame their pitch very much in the context of football. Fostering community involvement is fine, and very laudible and all that, but I follow St Mirren because I'm a football fan, and I suspect that this applies to the vast majority of those who the CiC will be targetting.

Sure, reference has been made to increasing revenue through the utilisation of the club's resources and facilities, but we could do with greater emphasis being placed upon how this will benefit the playing side of things, and enhance that particular 'product'. That must be at the heart of this, after all....mustn't it?

This is probably my greatest concern. Mr Atkinson isn't a football man. I hope it's not simply the case that he has more enthusiasm and passion for the CiC initiative, than he does for seeing St Mirren Football Club succeed on the field of play. They are not mutually exclusive, of course, by I want to hear about how this benefits the team, and is likely to genuinely enhance what we turn up to watch on a Saturday afternoon.

I've just finished reading The Miracle of Castel di Sangro - a book that charts the meteoric rise of a provincial club from a small town of 5,000 in Italy, to secure a place in Serie B. It is an incredible story, but, at times, it seems that the football is almost a sideshow. This mustn't be allowed to happen at St Mirren, in my opinion. It's a good read, BTW, even though the US author can be a bit of a twat at times.

If you watch the BBC interview he does say something along the lines of "and that money can be spent on the pitch". So, no matter how much extra activities occur as a result of this the end goal is to get the club progressing. I don't think it needs to be 5 paragraphs out of every 6. Also, fans are asking what the big plans are...well, it's a question for those fans to answer. Join, pay in, donate if you can, come up with ideas, get involved in initiatives etc. It's a better scenario, to me anyway, than being Dundee United or whomever and going in to debt with very little to show for it.

[kenbud]

I am watching these events unfold with great anticipation and excitement, first things first we need to wait for more information on what/when/where/how 10000 hours are going to operate and how they (We) intend to pay back the 2million required to purchase the football club.

Knowing a number of people who work in the volunteer sector and also being a very active scout leader within Paisley I know for a fact that with the correct know how and statistics to back you up application it is possible to get tens of thousands of pounds for community based projects or guaranteed funding to provide members of staff for projects.

Here is a local example of a scout group in paisley getting 20K to invest in facilities for their hall.

Linky

Here is another example of £40,000 raised by peeseweep / lapwing lodge at the top of Glenniffer breas to build a high ropes course.

Linky

Ok so that proves scouting in Paisley can raise £60,000 to build climbing walls how does this help the CiC / 10000 hours or St Mirren?

Well let’s look at this in a football context the CiC could apply to expand the Ralston or GHR facilities to provide a dedicated sports injury clinic for use by the community this benefits the community with local sports men/women/boys/girls having cheap access to sports therapy and the club benefit from having the facility as part of their training base.

I know this is all pie in the sky at the moment and my example probably isn’t the best but it gives St Mirren a great platform to extend their community reach while tapping into funding opportunities that may not be available to other football clubs.

I don’t think you will find many on here that will agree that the sugar daddy approach works! Scottish football is littered with the failures of one man bankrolling a club. I am sure almost all would agree that the club should be self sustainable i.e the money we spend on the park is the money we bring in through door. This to me explains why the CiC only needs £130k per year to be viable.

There is no reason why volunteers and perhaps a small number of paid staff via the CiC cannot replicate the amazing work done by the current BoD.

[Drew]

If you watch the BBC interview he does say something along the lines of "and that money can be spent on the pitch". So, no matter how much extra activities occur as a result of this the end goal is to get the club progressing. I don't think it needs to be 5 paragraphs out of every 6. Also, fans are asking what the big plans are...well, it's a question for those fans to answer. Join, pay in, donate if you can, come up with ideas, get involved in initiatives etc. It's a better scenario, to me anyway, than being Dundee United or whomever and going in to debt with very little to show for it.

I don't disagree with that Kenny.

My concern is that ordinary football fans will not tune into all this talk of community involvement and extracurricular activities unless they can gleen a clear sense of how this will benefit the playing side of things. A key issue is the fact that many are already turning off, so it isn't simply a case of maintaining the status quo (albeit that isn't a bad thing in terms of the current relative financial stability and security), but it would be good to hear how this model could actually improve things on the pitch.

We hear a lot of talk about fresh ideas etc., but not enough of it surrounds on-field activities just now, IMO.

[Reynard]

I don't disagree with that Kenny.

My concern is that ordinary football fans will not tune into all this talk of community involvement and extracurricular activities unless they can gleen a clear sense of how this will benefit the playing side of things. A key issue is the fact that many are already turning off, so it isn't simply a case of maintaining the status quo (albeit that isn't a bad thing in terms of the current relative financial stability and security), but it would be good to hear how this model could actually improve things on the pitch. We hear a lot of talk about fresh ideas etc., but not enough of it surrounds on-field activities just now, IMO.

As far as the punters are concerned that's ALL we are interested in I suppose. It's not that easy to understand the whole set up so it needs to be explained clearly to ordnary punters if they are going to buy into this. Some of us will just fire the money at it regardless of course, but there are plenty that will need to be persuaded that this can work. And how it works. Thats up to Atkinson and co to do this. If he doesn't do it well it will fail. If it fails, what happens to the club?

[TsuMirren]

I don't disagree with that Kenny.

My concern is that ordinary football fans will not tune into all this talk of community involvement and extracurricular activities unless they can gleen a clear sense of how this will benefit the playing side of things. A key issue is the fact that many are already turning off, so it isn't simply a case of maintaining the status quo (albeit that isn't a bad thing in terms of the current relative financial stability and security), but it would be good to hear how this model could actually improve things on the pitch.

We hear a lot of talk about fresh ideas etc., but not enough of it surrounds on-field activities just now, IMO.

I suppose it's hard to quantify that in some ways without being obvious. By obvious I just mean by saying something like "Your 36K will bring in X quality of player" and a big your team needs you style poster with Fitzy pointing the finger. With Ebbsfleet a lot saw the figures and were asked to give their views on budgets and clearing deficits then turned off completely to it all, not wanting to be interested. This is an even bigger job and I do have worries about budgets and investments, football fans just aren't used to being told to finance a club outwith the obvious entry fee and merchandise.

To me though, 300 paying £10 a month is a decent player on to the squad for one season. More companies engaged through a community feeling is more money in, but you can't quantify how much and as a club it's dangerous to budget without one season of seeing money come in. Fans feeling part of it, seeing financial reports on a monthly basis and understanding where the money is going will also develop things on the park as people will see what is needed...very hard to put that in a public forum. Another danger with this, just like with Ebsfleet, is that strip away the cool stuff and it's actually a lot of work...but not everybody needs to do the work, just appreciate the need and the messages being given.

[Drew]

Begging indulgence....

One further point/question on the theme of whether there is sufficient emphasis on the football side of things:

Let's assume (I did beg indulgence ) that many of the organisations who sign up to the CiC aren't football related, and don't have a great interest beyond how this might benefit their specific purposes and meet their needs. Despite this, they will presumably be afforded the opportunity to vote on matter that are very much football related. How do we reconcile this, if it seems that they are not voting with the interests of the football club at heart. I can't think of any specific examples off-hand, but I suppose we could even be looking at something as fundamantal as setting the player budget, or the recruitment of coaching staff. Do I want a Brownie troup or Church organisation voting on this? Okay, so that might be a bit of an extreme illustration of the point, but you hopefully get my drift.

Another point - what if the CiC propose a supporters bar in the Main Stand as we are hearing might be an option? Would the Brownie troup and Church organisation vote in support of this?

Maybe I'm missing something quite basic here. Wouldn't be the first time after all....

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

I am watching these events unfold with great anticipation and excitement, first things first we need to wait for more information on what/when/where/how 10000 hours are going to operate and how they (We) intend to pay back the 2million required to purchase the football club.

Knowing a number of people who work in the volunteer sector and also being a very active scout leader within Paisley I know for a fact that with the correct know how and statistics to back you up application it is possible to get tens of thousands of pounds for community based projects or guaranteed funding to provide members of staff for projects.

Here is a local example of a scout group in paisley getting 20K to invest in facilities for their hall.

Linky

Here is another example of £40,000 raised by peeseweep / lapwing lodge at the top of Glenniffer breas to build a high ropes course.

Linky

Ok so that proves scouting in Paisley can raise £60,000 to build climbing walls how does this help the CiC / 10000 hours or St Mirren?

Well let’s look at this in a football context the CiC could apply to expand the Ralston or GHR facilities to provide a dedicated sports injury clinic for use by the community this benefits the community with local sports men/women/boys/girls having cheap access to sports therapy and the club benefit from having the facility as part of their training base.

I know this is all pie in the sky at the moment and my example probably isn’t the best but it gives St Mirren a great platform to extend their community reach while tapping into funding opportunities that may not be available to other football clubs.

I don’t think you will find many on here that will agree that the sugar daddy approach works! Scottish football is littered with the failures of one man bankrolling a club. I am sure almost all would agree that the club should be self sustainable i.e the money we spend on the park is the money we bring in through door. This to me explains why the CiC only needs £130k per year to be viable.

There is no reason why volunteers and perhaps a small number of paid staff via the CiC cannot replicate the amazing work done by the current BoD.

Good constructive post rather than the repeated ramblings that are going on which I include myself in

[Reynard]

I suppose it's hard to quantify that in some ways without being obvious. By obvious I just mean by saying something like "Your 36K will bring in X quality of player" and a big your team needs you style poster with Fitzy pointing the finger. With Ebbsfleet a lot saw the figures and were asked to give their views on budgets and clearing deficits then turned off completely to it all, not wanting to be interested. This is an even bigger job and I do have worries about budgets and investments, football fans just aren't used to being told to finance a club outwith the obvious entry fee and merchandise.

To me though, 300 paying £10 a month is a decent player on to the squad for one season. More companies engaged through a community feeling is more money in, but you can't quantify how much and as a club it's dangerous to budget without one season of seeing money come in. Fans feeling part of it, seeing financial reports on a monthly basis and understanding where the money is going will also develop things on the park as people will see what is needed...very hard to put that in a public forum. Another danger with this, just like with Ebsfleet, is that strip away the cool stuff and it's actually a lot of work...but not everybody needs to do the work, just appreciate the need and the messages being given.

That's the thing. What IS known is the budget as it stands. Our football income either in this league or in the first division. That's what is budgeted for by the current board surely? I take it the CIC is EXTRA income over and above the existing stuff like hospitality advetising, sponsorship and the rest. It will be a hard job to budget for this year on year as it seems to be unknown and more unstable than our football income? How long do companies and individuals have to commit their money? What if we get loads of sign ups to begin with and then it all drifts away and we have taken extra players on or more expensive players and the money isn't there for paying them because folk got fed up and drifted off with their wedge? Can that happen? Could it happen? If it does how do we fund the shortfall? Could it be like a sugar daddy situation in the Dundee/Melville mode where money is promised and is there initially then is withdrawn? Not the same scenario but maybe the same end result?

[pozbaird]

Begging indulgence....

One further point/question on the theme of whether there is sufficient emphasis on the football side of things:

Let's assume (I did beg indulgence ) that many of the organisations who sign up to the CiC aren't football related, and don't have a great interest beyond how this might benefit their specific purposes and meet their needs. Despite this, they will presumably be afforded the opportunity to vote on matter that are very much football related. How do we reconcile this, if it seems that they are not voting with the interests of the football club at heart. I can't think of any specific examples off-hand, but I suppose we could even be looking at something as fundamantal as setting the player budget, or the recruitment of coaching staff. Do I want a Brownie troup or Church organisation voting on this? Okay, so that might be a bit of an extreme illustration of the point, but you hopefully get my drift.

Another point - what if the CiC propose a supporters bar in the Main Stand as we are hearing might be an option? Would the Brownie troup and Church organisation vote in support of this?

Maybe I'm missing something quite basic here. Wouldn't be the first time after all....

Fair point Drew - and sort of ties in with one of my earlier posts which queried the mechanics of getting things done, if a small band of directors who currently thrash out policy are replaced by a wide ranging group of community, corporate, and individual members.

I don't think the creation of the members bar will be an item that requires a vote on. I reckon that's a stadium facility that will happen - with a corporate partner doing the fit-out work. A good example of the 'networking' opportunities afforded to businesses who take up corporate memberships?

On another note - say Brownie groups, Boys Brigade, local churches, other community groups.... all join up as community partners, use the stadium. Think about it. The kids in these community groups will (I'm guessing here!) be afforded tickets to see our games. Maybe for free at first? What have we always said about trying to hook in the kids, the new generation of fans? Get them into St Mirren instead of the ugly sisters?

Think it through, all this 'community' stuff, and how it could impact positively on what happens ON the pitch.

[Drew]

That's the thing. What IS known is the budget as it stands. Our football income either in this league or in the first division. That's what is budgeted for by the current board surely? I take it the CIC is EXTRA income over and above the existing stuff like hospitality advetising, sponsorship and the rest. It will be a hard job to budget for this year on year as it seems to be unknown and more unstable than our football income? How long do companies and individuals have to commit their money? What if we get loads of sign ups to begin with and then it all drifts away and we have taken extra players on or more expensive players and the money isn't there for paying them because folk got fed up and drifted off with their wedge? Can that happen? Could it happen? If it does how do we fund the shortfall? Could it be like a sugar daddy situation in the Dundee/Melville mode where money is promised and is there initially then is withdrawn? Not the same scenario but maybe the same end result?

On a similar note, I was wondering if there is a timescale associated with joining. In other words, is it not entirely feasible that many (individuals and groups) will hold off before signing up in order to see how things pan out. That would seem a sensible approach in many respects, but it wouldn't favour the CiC as it attempts to get up and running.

[Drew]

Fair point Drew - and sort of ties in with one of my earlier posts which queried the mechanics of getting things done, if a small band of directors who currently thrash out policy are replaced by a wide ranging group of community, corporate, and individual members.

I don't think the creation of the members bar will be an item that requires a vote on. I reckon that's a stadium facility that will happen - with a corporate partner doing the fit-out work. A good example of the 'networking' opportunities afforded to businesses who take up corporate memberships?

On another note - say Brownie groups, Boys Brigade, local churches, other community groups.... all join up as community partners, use the stadium. Think about it. The kids in these community groups will (I'm guessing here!) be afforded tickets to see our games. Maybe for free at first? What have we always said about trying to hook in the kids, the new generation of fans? Get them into St Mirren instead of the ugly sisters?

Think it through, all this 'community' stuff, and how it could impact positively on what happens ON the pitch.

Aye, good point, and one that I hadn't thought about to be honest.

If I were to become a member of the CiC, the very first thing I'd be lobbying for ( well, after kicking off my campaign to bring in Robbie Winters) would be to reduce admission prices. Knock a fiver off the cost of a ticket - at least on a trial basis - and see if this attracts more punters through the turnstiles.

Anyway, as you can see, I've way too much time on my hands today having taken the day off with a view to going out on the bike for a few hours. The pishy weather put paid to that

[pozbaird]

Aye, good point, and one that I hadn't thought about to be honest.

If I were to become a member of the CiC, the very first thing I'd be lobbying for ( well, after kicking off my campaign to bring in Robbie Winters) would be to reduce admission prices. Knock a fiver off the cost of a ticket - at least on a trial basis - and see if this attracts more punters through the turnstiles.

Anyway, as you can see, I've way too much time on my hands today having taken the day off with a view to going out on the bike for a few hours. The pishy weather put paid to that

Good constructive input Drew is always welcome. Until you think of some, get out on that bike.

[scottd]

I've just finished reading The Miracle of Castel di Sangro - a book that charts the meteoric rise of a provincial club from a small town of 5,000 in Italy, to secure a place in Serie B. It is an incredible story, but, at times, it seems that the football is almost a sideshow. This mustn't be allowed to happen at St Mirren, in my opinion. It's a good read, BTW, even though the US author can be a bit of a twat at times.

Did it not all fall apart when a couple of their players died in a car crash or something similar?

[bluto]

Did it not all fall apart when a couple of their players died in a car crash or something similar?

Are you not thinking of a Dallas episode?

[Drew]

Did it not all fall apart when a couple of their players died in a car crash or something similar?

Nah, they stayed up that season - a huge achievement. If anything, the loss of the two players seemed to galvanise the squad. They dedicated the win that sealed theor survival to the two player who were killed in the accident.

They dropped down the following season, and pretty much fell away after that, though they did secure a couple of impressive cup victories against Serie A sides on the way. I don't think the Societa who ran the club were interested in much more than short-term publicity and financial gain.

[steve_the_saint]

OK so in the simplest terms, it seems to me that this is happening:

St. Mirren FC

For the past so many seasons, the club has been running at even, or as close to it without it being a worry. That means that any money being made by the club is immediately reinvested in the playing budget and the day to day running of the club - there have been no external finances, ie donations from the BOD own pockets since we moved to the new ground as we have no secured loan which is draining the clubs resources. Club policy, ie youth, signing policy, contracts, ticketing policy, strips, ideas for gaining new fans etc. have been made by the board of directors, who own 52% of the club. This majority share will become owned by the CIC.

The CIC

The CIC will get the money to raise the 2M quid from a variety of grants and soft loans etc. This money has already been promised, dependant on a business plan which the final part of is being implemented at the moment. This business plan shows that the CIC can make a minimum of 130,000 quid (apporx) a year which satisfies any loan agreement. And even if this number falls short of 130,000, the loans are soft so can't be called in and are not secured against anything - as far as i can see, it'll just take longer to pay the loans off?

The 130,000 pa is got through local companies, communty groups and individuals who will be members of the CIC and will have an interest in the CIC being successful - this interest will not be directly related to the club being successul as the club is self running. The CIC would be as it says, for the "community", so any vote that these members would have, would not be self motivated - ie, brownie clubs not voting for a bar - but for the benefit of the members community. (On a side note....if the bar makes a profit, would this be a profit for the CIC or the club?). So every member of the CIC should have an interest in all the other members businesses/community organisations being successful. This way, the CIC will become more successful, the company members will become more successful, the company organisations will become more successful and indirectly - because the "hub" of this community will be at GHR and Ralston - St. Mirren will be more successful, through a mutual interest of the CIC being successful.

So, to ensure that the CIC gets off to a flier - rather than waiting to see how it goes - anybody interested should initally sign up because the more who sign up, the more interest generated which leads to more members signing up.

Please correct me if any of this is wrong?

The only thing worrying me, is worst case scenario - which doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet?

[Drew]

OK so in the simplest terms, it seems to me that this is happening:

St. Mirren FC

For the past so many seasons, the club has been running at even, or as close to it without it being a worry. That means that any money being made by the club is immediately reinvested in the playing budget and the day to day running of the club - there have been no external finances, ie donations from the BOD own pockets since we moved to the new ground as we have no secured loan which is draining the clubs resources. Club policy, ie youth, signing policy, contracts, ticketing policy, strips, ideas for gaining new fans etc. have been made by the board of directors, who own 52% of the club. This majority share will become owned by the CIC.

The CIC

The CIC will get the money to raise the 2M quid from a variety of grants and soft loans etc. This money has already been promised, dependant on a business plan which the final part of is being implemented at the moment. This business plan shows that the CIC can make a minimum of 130,000 quid (apporx) a year which satisfies any loan agreement. And even if this number falls short of 130,000, the loans are soft so can't be called in and are not secured against anything - as far as i can see, it'll just take longer to pay the loans off?

The 130,000 pa is got through local companies, communty groups and individuals who will be members of the CIC and will have an interest in the CIC being successful - this interest will not be directly related to the club being successul as the club is self running. The CIC would be as it says, for the "community", so any vote that these members would have, would not be self motivated - ie, brownie clubs not voting for a bar - but for the benefit of the members community. (On a side note....if the bar makes a profit, would this be a profit for the CIC or the club?). So every member of the CIC should have an interest in all the other members businesses/community organisations being successful. This way, the CIC will become more successful, the company members will become more successful, the company organisations will become more successful and indirectly - because the "hub" of this community will be at GHR and Ralston - St. Mirren will be more successful, through a mutual interest of the CIC being successful.

Meanwhile, off the set of the Truman Show....

Edited April 1, 2011 by Drew

[Reynard]

What if we get loads of sign ups to begin with and then it all drifts away and we have taken extra players on or more expensive players and the money isn't there for paying them because folk got fed up and drifted off with their wedge? Can that happen? Could it happen? If it does how do we fund the shortfall? Could it be like a sugar daddy situation in the Dundee/Melville mode where money is promised and is there initially then is withdrawn? Not the same scenario but maybe the same end result?

The only thing worrying me, is worst case scenario - which doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet?

Well I kinda asked that type of a question. What DOES happen if the CiC doesn't work as expected?

Broadly speaking the whole idea looks a good one and it seems to have limitless potential actually. If it works to begin with then other firms might see a benefit to their businesses as well and the club COULD become something of a focal point for a lot of different reasons and not just football. I think this is what it is all about. The football side of things will benefit from all of it of course, we will never be a BIG club but we might be able to punch above our weight as it is just now. Reading a bit further on the whole thing, I like the idea, I like the potential it has. The hardest bit is probably the initial start up, selling it, explaining it. Further down the line it will be easy to see if it is happening or not. I have questions of course as we all do, but I'm not nearly as sceptical as some are. I don't quite see it as a win win situation as there have to be some pitfalls. But I can see it working. Its us punters that can give it a kick start and I think we should give it a whirl. For £120 sheets theres nothing to lose REALLY. Maybe some of the money SMISA has could be whanged into it initially at least to get it off the ground? Make it happen and see how it goes.

[steve_the_saint]

On the other 48% of the shares...

Could the owners of these shares transfer them to the CIC for an equivalent membership share in the CIC?

So everyone with a small share - <1% - could use their share in the club as part or all of a down payment on a CIC membership?

This could reduce the overall number of shareholders of the club and help lead to a totally fan owned club.

[GlenburnSaint]

When you have an owner/owners who have control of the club and a good player comes up at a reasonable price then

they can purchase that player if they so wish.

If the CIC setup goes ok and we see a player for say 100k who would improve the team, Who pays?

I cant see many people with enough money to throw at the team from the "community" to enhance the team

capability at a time when its needed.

Maybe a daft question but if anyone can answer!

[Reynard]

When you have an owner/owners who have control of the club and a good player comes up at a reasonable price then

they can purchase that player if they so wish.

If the CIC setup goes ok and we see a player for say 100k who would improve the team, Who pays? I cant see many people with enough money to throw at the team from the "community" to enhance the team

capability at a time when its needed.

Maybe a daft question but if anyone can answer!

If what we are told is right, then money from any profit made from the running of the CiC goes directly to the club, if there is enough money spare to spunk on transfer fees then the issue would be addressed by the committee/board, whatever is in place for the running of the football side of things. So wouldn't whoever is running the club decide? I take it we will still have a board and a manager and some sort of football structure so if there is money there to be spent they will decide?

[Griff]

So the CIC model would have New St Mirren Park and the Ralston complex as the equivillants of the local village hall , whereby any profits generated from the rentals , businesses etc would be used to strengthen the playing side of the team.

As a consequence of St Mirrens community involvement and Community Partnership approach , there is the slight possibility of the support being increased .

Also if the club is set up as a community group the and has a constitution written up in a certain way it enables it to apply for grants from public funds such as the National Lottery etc , some of these grants need to be match funded and often volunteer hours can count as match funding , which again could bring money to the club if it is innovative and adds value to the commuinity.

All good stuff , but is there a way back if it doesn,t work out , village hall committees are always falling out .

[pozbaird]

I just want to add a wee thought of my own here. On these threads, we've mentioned quite a lot that on the community side, there's churches interested in becoming members, and perhaps using the facilities.

Not one person has even remotely shown an interest in querying which churches, which religion, anything at all along those lines.

I tell you - no matter the results on the pitch, I'll always be proud to call myself a St Mirren fan.