The Referendum Thread

[Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes]

Seems that Rowling has been subjected to a load of personal abuse over her opinions. Anotehr story in the media this morning about someone else being subject to abuse for daring to support the no campaign.

As I stated earlier in this thread, this thread is actually a bit like real life Scottish society. The majority will vote no and very few are prepared to talk about it for fear of the abuse they will receive.

This thread mirrors that.

Who would want to live in an intolerant nation like that?

There will be a big back lash against the abusive yes campaign at the polls.

That's all well & good but are you sure it's not because she plays the long ball?

[faraway saint]

Seems that Rowling has been subjected to a load of personal abuse over her opinions. Anotehr story in the media this morning about someone else being subject to abuse for daring to support the no campaign.

As I stated earlier in this thread, this thread is actually a bit like real life Scottish society. The majority will vote no and very few are prepared to talk about it for fear of the abuse they will receive.

This thread mirrors that.

Who would want to live in an intolerant nation like that?

There will be a big back lash against the abusive yes campaign at the polls.

Indeed, like the abuse McGregor has received on another thread.

Disgusting.

Irony?

[salmonbuddie]

Seems that Rowling has been subjected to a load of personal abuse over her opinions. Anotehr story in the media this morning about someone else being subject to abuse for daring to support the no campaign.

As I stated earlier in this thread, this thread is actually a bit like real life Scottish society. The majority will vote no and very few are prepared to talk about it for fear of the abuse they will receive.

This thread mirrors that.

Who would want to live in an intolerant nation like that?

Probably not the Weirs.......

[Drew]

Seems that Rowling has been subjected to a load of personal abuse over her opinions. Anotehr story in the media this morning about someone else being subject to abuse for daring to support the no campaign.

As I stated earlier in this thread, this thread is actually a bit like real life Scottish society. The majority will vote no and very few are prepared to talk about it for fear of the abuse they will receive.

This thread mirrors that.

Who would want to live in an intolerant nation like that?

There will be a big back lash against the abusive yes campaign at the polls.

And it seems that people have also posted stuff on social media hoping that Alex Salmond's father dies (or is dead, or some moronic slabbering to that effect), and that, he, himself, and Nicola Sturgeon are stabbed or shot.

Such is the shite that is posted by twats on social media. FFS, you're on here often enough, so you should know how it works.

People who get all wound up about such nonsense really need to grow a set. It isn't nice, but in the grand scheme of things, you aren't going to be shot, jailed, or disappeared for expressing you view as happens elsewhere on the globe, so I think a wee bit of proportionality is required,

Let's not make this out to be something it isn't.

[Desperately Seeking Susans]

Seems that Rowling has been subjected to a load of personal abuse over her opinions. Anotehr story in the media this morning about someone else being subject to abuse for daring to support the no campaign.

As I stated earlier in this thread, this thread is actually a bit like real life Scottish society. The majority will vote no and very few are prepared to talk about it for fear of the abuse they will receive.

This thread mirrors that.

Who would want to live in an intolerant nation like that?

There will be a big back lash against the abusive yes campaign at the polls.

Haven't you noticed ID that the abuse you talk about is taking place not in an independent Scotland but here in the UK!

[Stuart Dickson]

And it seems that people have also posted stuff on social media hoping that Alex Salmond's father dies (or is dead, or some moronic slabbering to that effect), and that, he, himself, and Nicola Sturgeon are stabbed or shot.

Such is the shite that is posted by twats on social media. FFS, you're on here often enough, so you should know how it works.

People who get all wound up about such nonsense really need to grow a set. It isn't nice, but in the grand scheme of things, you aren't going to be shot, jailed, or disappeared for expressing you view as happens elsewhere on the globe, so I think a wee bit of proportionality is required,

Let's not make this out to be something it isn't.

What isn't it then?

So far in the last few days we've had abuse directed at one supporter of the Union by a Special Advisor to the First Minister who has since been forced to make a public apology and today we have the Charity Regulator investigating "The Dignity Project" - an Edinburgh based charity - after a Twitter post came from their account. The tweet said of JK Rowling - "What a bastard after we gave her shelter in our city when she was a single mum." The charity has since claimed that it's account was hacked by Cybernats and that their official line is that everyone is free to donate to whomever they wish.

To me this looks like the Scottish equivelent of a Brown Shirt campaign, reminiscent of the way Natzi's in pre War Germany aimed to silence Communists in the country. Bullying? Perhaps, anti democratic though it certainly is.

[Vambo57]

Seems that Rowling has been subjected to a load of personal abuse over her opinions. Anotehr story in the media this morning about someone else being subject to abuse for daring to support the no campaign.

As I stated earlier in this thread,

The majority will vote no and very few are prepared to talk about it for fear of the abuse they will receive.

This thread mirrors that.

Who would want to live in an intolerant nation like that?

There will be a big back lash against the abusive yes campaign at the polls.

Then you will have noticed this thread is actually a Poll.

It is an anonymous Poll, so no ' fear of abuse', as you so ironically put it.

A poll that overwhelmiingly voted YES.

BTW, did you vote No with all your aliases and how many new ones did you create to vote?

ETA: You are heading for a real meltdown come the real polling day.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Vambo57

[Drew]

What isn't it then?

So far in the last few days we've had abuse directed at one supporter of the Union by a Special Advisor to the First Minister who has since been forced to make a public apology and today we have the Charity Regulator investigating "The Dignity Project" - an Edinburgh based charity - after a Twitter post came from their account. The tweet said of JK Rowling - "What a bastard after we gave her shelter in our city when she was a single mum." The charity has since claimed that it's account was hacked by Cybernats and that their official line is that everyone is free to donate to whomever they wish.

To me this looks like the Scottish equivelent of a Brown Shirt campaign, reminiscent of the way Natzi's in pre War Germany aimed to silence Communists in the country. Bullying? Perhaps, anti democratic though it certainly is.

What abuse would that be?

He suggested she wasn't 'an ordinary Mum' (true), and that she was related to Pat Lally (not true, but abuse?). An error of judgement, but abuse. What drivel.....again.

The abuse is flying about online, Stuart, as well you know it, but don't let that get in the way of your utterly bizarre slabberings (Brown Shirts, FFS! ).

[Happy Buddie]

Article about Fred Goodwin written by former Sunday Herald Financial editor Ian Fraser.

Really he wants you to buy his book......but I like his last section "You can't trust politicians! Our wonderful politicians have not just allowed banks to become too big to fail, they have also allowed them to become too big to prosecute. And too big to jail."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/company-news/on-the-trail-of-fred-the-shred.24425913

On the trail of Fred the Shred

Former Sunday Herald financial editor Ian Fraser's new book, Shredded - Inside RBS: the Bank that Broke Britain, has been acclaimed as the definitive account of the crisis. Here Fraser reflects on the 13 things he learned along the long, hard road to publication

Sunday 8 June 2014

(1) Fred the Shred was not the sole villain of popular mythology.

In one sense he was the dupe ...

RBS's semi-comatose board of directors, especially chairman Sir Tom McKillop and audit boss Archie Hunter, rubber-stamped Fred Goodwin's every disastrous decision as chief executive. Corporate governance, investors, auditors and regulators could have blocked him - or even fired him - at every turn. My book reveals for the first time that Goodwin sought to pull out of his bid for Dutch bank ABN Amro after he realised the exclusion of Chicago-based subsidiary LaSalle Bank would almost certainly be disastrous for RBS. But his desperate attempts to call the whole thing off were thwarted by legal threats from greedy hedge funds that had piled into ABN shares in the hope of a fast buck, and also by entreaties and threats from consortium partner Emilio Botin, chairman of Spanish bank Banco Santander, who was determined to press on.

(2) ... but he was nastier than I thought

I learned that when he was chief executive of the Clydesdale Bank from 1996-97, Goodwin took delight in humiliating colleagues in front of their peers. Former colleagues told me that even David Thorburn, his own best man, now head of the Clydesdale and Yorkshire Banks, was the object of "Fred going mental" in public. "It was astonishing considering they were sup­posed to be personal friends," he said. Goodwin famously continued in the same vein at RBS, where he regularly lambasted and lampooned colleagues in so-called "morning beatings" and credit committees using a rapier-like intellect to dismantle colleagues who crossed his path or let him down. Sometimes he just singled out people for dressing-downs "pour encourager les autres".

(3) .... and also weirder

To let off steam he went to RAF Leuchars, where he had been given special permission to joyride in the navigator's seat of the 111 Squadron's Tornado F3 fighter jets. He would take great delight in doing loop-the-loops at speeds of up to Mach 2.2. The then Sir Fred had forged such a close relationship with the RAF that, just as he was plotting the disastrous ABN takeover in April 2008, he was appointed an honorary air commodore in No 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force. He was effectively stripped of this honour in June 2009.

(4) Scottish banking was never prudent and boring ...

Royal Bank of Scotland has gone off the rails before. It came close to collapse in 1793 and only survived thanks to a bailout from the government of Pitt the Younger. The cause was cavalier and reckless lending to merchants and manufacturers - in spite of a severe economic downturn - by its Glasgow branch, which had only be founded 10 years earlier. Alongside the collapses of Ayr Bank in 1772, Western Bank in 1857 and City of Glasgow Bank 1878, and the allegedly "piratical" corporate lending of Bank of Scotland in England and Wales during the 1980s and 1990s, these incidents suggest Scottish banking's reputation for prudence and probity in the period prior to the 2000s is thoroughly ill-deserved.

(5) ... and it never had a golden age

You know the Captain Mainwaring type with his customers' best interests at heart, whose deep knowledge and understanding of the local community ensured the bank lent responsibly and minimised bad debts? What I learned from retired NatWest, Royal Bank of Scotland and National Commercial Bank of Scotland managers was that in the 1950s and 1960s the banking sector was a protected and highly profitable oligopoly. The Bank of England favoured muted competition, as it made supervision easier. There was a gentlemen's agreement between English and Scottish banks not to encroach on each other's territories. British banks liked these cosy arrangements, as they enabled them to overcharge for what was, at times, lousy service.

(6) Emilio Botin is The Daddy

At critical meetings of the ABN Amro takeover consortium in April 2007, Santander's Spanish chairman Botin effectively ran rings around his consortium partners Jean-Paul Votron of Fortis and Fred Goodwin. The "godfather of European banking" seemed willing to trample over his two consortium partners in pursuit of his prey, eventually picking up the plums of ABN Amro - Banco Real in Brazil and Banca Antonveneta in Italy - for a song while the others paid fortunes for ABN's dross. One well-placed source told me that in the build-up to the €71.1 billion deal in April 2007, Botin "would put his arm around Fred and say, 'Fred, you're the best bank CEO in the world - you're amazing!' But at the same time, he'd be picking his back pocket."

(7) Investors are more blameworthy than I thought

Institutional investors and asset management firms have got off far too lightly in this mess. They earn fabulous sums to invest on behalf of end-investors, and effectively owned and therefore controlled the bank. Uniquely, they had the ability to fire its board or enforce a change of strategy. In the 1990s and early to mid-2000s, an addiction to short-term returns meant investors were urging banks to run themselves with "efficient balance sheets" - which meant with virtually zero capital and very high leverage. Yes, Goodwin and colleagues pulled the wool over their eyes, but the 94.5% of investors who voted through the disastrous ABN Amro deal didn't need to act like sheep, or lemmings.

(8) The reign of terror at RBS is not over yet

Many of the 120 current and former RBS, NatWest, Ulster Bank and Citizens Financial insiders that I interviewed for Shredded were terrified of talking to me. Some feared that they would lose their jobs or their pensions if they were found out. Almost all of them only agreed to speak on conditions of the utmost secrecy, with contracts sometimes drawn up in advance. One source would only contact me by throwaway mobile phone, with meeting venues arranged no more than half an hour in advance. Once, the presence of a man reading a newspaper at a nearby table necessitated a change of venue.

(9) Bankers don't do "colour"

Most bankers think in numbers as well as in a horrible alphabet soup of acronyms like P&L, MBS, ABS, CDO, CBS and CPDO. Getting them to recall the atmospheric "colour" surrounding critical incidents - details like how they travelled somewhere, who else was in the room, what the weather was like, the decor of the room, the view from the windows, how their counterparts were dressed, the mood in the room - was sometimes difficult. Thankfully, there were one or two bankers who were good at this sort of thing. Without them, Shredded would have ended up as dry as a bowl of milkless high-fibre cereal.

(10) RBS sought to save its skin at the expense of its own business customers

My book describes how, soon after arriving at RBS, Goodwin sought to bankrupt one of Edinburgh's largest private companies on a whim. He was only prevented from doing so after representations were made to the then CEO George Mathewson. Arbitrarily pulling the rug on business customers - even ones that were trading successfully and had never missed a loan repayment - became more prevalent after an internal decision was made at RBS as it desperately sought to prevent collapse in August 2008. From that moment on, as reports to the UK Government have suggested, there is evidence to suggest that the bank was effectively seeking to put viable, asset-rich business customers out of business in order to prosper at their expense. After alluding to this behaviour in television interviews including one on BBC news in July 2012, I was deluged with correspondence from owners and managers of affected firms, some of whom cried down the phone as they alleged that RBS had snuffed out their life's work.

(11) Press coverage of Goodwin and RBS was pathetic

A bubble of hyperbole surrounded Goodwin and RBS in the wake of the NatWest takeover in 2000. The accolades reached a crescendo when Forbes magazine named him "global businessman of the year" in December 2002. Scotland on Sunday named him Scotland's top man for four consecutive years in 2003 and 2006. He also won numerous corporate and business awards from Trinity Mirror's Scottish Business Insider and was called a "master of integration" by Harvard Business School. A more critical press might have helped avert disaster.

(12) The retail banking revolution of 1985-1995 was deeply flawed

When banks including RBS refocused on shareholder value in 1985-95, they changed their whole approach. They segmented their customers and took a more mechanistic approach to service. In particular, they centralised decision-making, through the introduction of much more sophisticated IT, and hollowed out the branches with decision-makers removed from the frontline. They brought in non-bankers to oversee large parts of their business, with many banks installing sales people in business-critical roles. The holy grail became cross-selling, which often turned into misselling, or the exploitation of their large bases of current account holders by flogging additional products that were often useless or that didn't work. Sales, sales, sales became the goal and staff were incentivised accordingly. As part of this process, RBS introduced a US-style "rank and yank" [promote or sack] way of assessing staff performance according to the value of the products they had sold.

(13) You can't trust politicians

Politicians might talk about reform or retribution of errant bankers when they are in opposition but once they are in power they invariably become pawns of the banking sector. This was true of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown - who frequently intervened on behalf of the bankers, for example, by heading off rules that would have impeded profit-making, kicking necessary reforms into the long grass and generally lowering the regulatory bar. In November and December 2008, both David Cameron and George Osborne expressed a determination to jail criminal bankers, but have singularly softened their stance since entering Downing Street. I conclude that, however badly high-level bankers behave, they have engineered a situation in which supposedly democratic governments will turn a largely blind eye, including management structures and record-keeping that make incrimination difficult. Our wonderful politicians have not just allowed banks to become too big to fail, they have also allowed them to become too big to prosecute. And too big to jail.

I can confirm that FG was always an arrogant B, I was in the same class at school, at the Grammar. Roald Dahl even wrote a book about him, The Bastard Fred Goodwin. My main claim to fame is, if you look closely at his left eye brow, there's a wee scar. I put it there. Well, not strictly true, he chased me into the school after I'd nearly broken his leg in a slide tackle, and I ducked under the fire extinguisher, he didnae.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Happy Buddie

[thepaisleypanda]

So far in the last few days we've had abuse directed at one supporter of the Union by a Special Advisor to the First Minister

Drew beat me to it, but, is this another Dickson claim that he can't be able to back it up with any evidence?

Where was the "abuse" from any special advisor??

(What happens on Twitter / FB is another matter as there are plenty of loonies on all sides there!)

[Stuart Dickson]

What abuse would that be?

He suggested she wasn't 'an ordinary Mum' (true), and that she was related to Pat Lally (not true, but abuse?). An error of judgement, but abuse. What drivel.....again.

The abuse is flying about online, Stuart, as well you know it, but don't let that get in the way of your utterly bizarre slabberings (Brown Shirts, FFS! ).

If someone said I was a Labour Activist related to Pat Lally I'd be well insulted. I would certainly take both those things as a form of abuse.

Let's go further with this though Drew - what about the Wings Over Scotland website where the website owner called her "A fool, a liar and an idiot" and where the cybernats then queued up to give the lass a kicking

http://caronlindsay.wordpress.com/2014/06/12/rev-stu-said-he-couldnt-find-any-abuse-of-clare-lally-he-should-look-at-the-comments-on-his-own-website/

[Stuart Dickson]

It isn't everything, apart from what it is.

You got a link to the charity is claiming it was hacked by "Cybernats"? Even if they are claiming that, do they have proof of who hacked them?

All your Nazi shite would be laughable if it wasn't so disgusting - totally out of context referencing of, probably, the world's most infamous mass murderers in most of your posts, just shows you to be the f**kwit that you are.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10893567/JK-Rowling-subjected-to-Cybernat-abuse-after-1m-pro-UK-donation.html

Link to the story published in this mornings Daily Telegraph

oh and if you don't like the natsi references it might be a good idea for the Yes Campaign to stop acting like Nazi's.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Bloomsbury Bud]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10893567/JK-Rowling-subjected-to-Cybernat-abuse-after-1m-pro-UK-donation.html

Link to the story published in this mornings Daily Telegraph

oh and if you don't like the natsi references it might be a good idea for the Yes Campaign to stop acting like Nazi's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[Drew]

If someone said I was a Labour Activist related to Pat Lally I'd be well insulted. I would certainly take both those things as a form of abuse.

Let's go further with this though Drew - what about the Wings Over Scotland website where the website owner called her "A fool, a liar and an idiot" and where the cybernats then queued up to give the lass a kicking

http://caronlindsay.wordpress.com/2014/06/12/rev-stu-said-he-couldnt-find-any-abuse-of-clare-lally-he-should-look-at-the-comments-on-his-own-website/

What about Wings Over Scotland?

You claimed that Campbell Gunn abused Clare Lally. I pointed out that he hadn't. Quite simple, really.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Stuart Dickson is a fool, a liar and an idiot...

[Stuart Dickson]

What about Wings Over Scotland?

You claimed that Campbell Gunn abused Clare Lally. I pointed out that he hadn't. Quite simple, really.

And I've said that had he said the same thing about me I would have been totally affronted. When you make allegations about someone's parentage it's for them to decide whether they feel abused or not. Clearly Clare Lally has been subjected to a ridiculous 72 hours of abuse from Nationalists over this matter and - if allegations are found true, that Campbell Gunn colluded with people at Wings Over Scotland - then he should be sacked immediately.

[Stuart Dickson]

Stuart Dickson is a fool, a liar and an idiot...

And you're a silly Natsi.

I can swim with the fishes Tony. I can handle the abuse and I can dish it out no problem at all. But the behaviour of nationalists behind the abuse of JK Rowling and Clare Lally really does the Yes Campaign no credit whatsoever and it simply goes to prove just how desperate you've all become.

[thepaisleypanda]

Re-read my last post! Abuse by certain people on Twitter / blogs etc is one thing.

To claim that a Government official should lose his livelihood for 1 minor mistake is ridiculous!

Has no one ever asked YOU if you are related to blah.. or blah... in error?

Lally brought it on herself rather than letting it go - she knew EXACTLY what she was doing - for the "cause"

[Stuart Dickson]

Re-read my last post! Abuse by certain people on Twitter / blogs etc is one thing.

To claim that a Government official should lose his livelihood for 1 minor mistake is ridiculous!

Has no one ever asked YOU if you are related to blah.. or blah... in error?

Lally brought it on herself rather than letting it go - she knew EXACTLY what she was doing - for the "cause"

He shouldn't have been briefing the press against her in a bid to smear her reputation. Caught with his pants down in my opinion.

[thepaisleypanda]

He shouldn't have been briefing the press against her in a bid to smear her reputation. Caught with his pants down in my opinion.

How is pointing out a FACT - smearing?

She smeared herself by portraying to be something she wasn't at a public meeting!

[Stuart Dickson]

How is pointing out a FACT - smearing?

She smeared herself by portraying to be something she wasn't at a public meeting!

Fact - she wasn't related to Pat Lally. Campbell Gunn f**ked up right there and he's become the story. He's a shit spin doctor anyway. The SNP should have binned him long before now.

Anyway I've got to say how does being politically involved make you an abnormal Mother? Clare Lally claimed she was just a "normal Mother" - I'd imagine that's exactly what she is.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Guest TPAFKATS]

You imagine a lot...

[Drew]

And you're a silly Natsi.

I can swim with the fishes Tony. I can handle the abuse and I can dish it out no problem at all. But the behaviour of nationalists behind the abuse of JK Rowling and Clare Lally really does the Yes Campaign no credit whatsoever and it simply goes to prove just how desperate you've all become.

While this is classy, eh?:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alex-Salmond-is-a-deluded-wanker-/133345880093748

[Stuart Dickson]

While this is classy, eh?:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alex-Salmond-is-a-deluded-wanker-/133345880093748

I've never seen that before. Nor have many other people judging by the lack of "likes". Are you going to tell me this is Glen Mulcairns Facebook page?

[Drew]

I've never seen that before. Nor have many other people judging by the lack of "likes". Are you going to tell me this is Glen Mulcairns Facebook page?

I've no idea whose it is.

I Googled 'online abuse of Alex Salmond' and this was among the first links listed. It isn't hard to find fuckwits of all hues who are happy to indulge in dishing out abuse online.

The internet is a fantastic thing, but it is populated by many, many cocks, Stuart. There is absolutely no mileage in trying, as you have in the last couple of pages, to discredit one side of the debate by referring to the lowest common denominator in terms of those who support a YES vote, as it is a very straightforward process batting this straight back at you.