The Referendum Thread

[beyond our ken]

I have to laugh when people precede their point with the staement "now I'm a businessman/woman", as if this somehow lends more weight to their argument

there are a lot of shite businessmen/women out there

[BoWSaint]

Wrong in your opinion

IMO its you who is wrong.

Most folk have an opinion on the referendum one way or another. Those who don't really care at all wouldn't have watched it last night.

Salmond had to convince folk like me, who could actually have been swayed, to change their minds. It actually went the other way and reinforced my view that I should vote no.

Its interesting that most of the no voters on here are declaring they thought the debate was crap and no one won it. Before hand, most of these folk and folk like me as well, expected Salmond to come over better.

He didn't. And he actually verged on making himself a laughing stock with his outer space and right hand side of the road questions.

You glorious leader and champion of the NO vote said the opposite. He thought it was a huge success for Darling. From skimming through the last couple of pages it seems to me that it is the YES voters who think the debate was dull and no-one won it.

Regarding your earlier post about straw clutching because of a swing of 4 or 5 people, I saw that the Better Together facebook page triumphantly posted that they had managed to find 5 undecided voters who now plan to vote NO after the referendum. People have been accused of quoting polls with low numbers of statistics on here before but surely this official statement from Better Together takes the biscuit?

[Stuart Dickson]

Did you even watch it?

He was deliberately taking the piss out of Darling and got the laughter he was after.

Hey that rhymes.....cool !

You do understand how these debates work don't you. The majority of the population won't watch them on TV. Instead they'll see snippets on news programmes, and read headlines in the paper. What they'll be seeing this morning is that Salmond was asking if we'd be safe from Alf and Mork in the event of a Yes vote and that he refused point blank to name his plan B on currency despite previously stating there is a plan B, c, d and e.

Darling on the other hand appeared passionate about his desire for the best for Scotland. Darling was the clear winner as has been acknowledged by several SNP MSPs

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Salmond was asking these questions of darling to show that cabinet ministers amongst others were involved in daft scaremongering. Remember it's a serving cabinet minister who made the claim about aliens.

Giving Salmond 5 or 10 minutes to question darling sums up what was wrong with the set up of the debate IMO. Darling is a back bench MP representing a cross party and multi organisational group - what was he meant to ask him?

[thepaisleypanda]

Who cares what colour or nationality people voting in this referendum are?

Certainly not me. Do you?

Of course not!

I was just highlighting the positive discrimination that the (particularly English based) media use.

To take a "random" three teenagers from Lanarkshire & come up with the combination above takes some doing.

Public-funded bodies are notorious for it in their marketing brochures. - take a look at any uni prospectus for example & you will almost always have people from minority groups, which, is not representative of the local demographic in THIS part of the world.

[Drew]

Salmond was asking these questions of darling to show that cabinet ministers amongst others were involved in daft scaremongering.

That was the plan, I would imagine, but he didn't make a terribly good fist of it (MATRON!).

There was an opportunity for Salmond to emphasise issues surrounding social justice, and he didn't really take it. His comments surrounding education and tuition fees went down well, so this should have been an indication that there was a theme to be pursued that would resonate with the studio audience and viewers at home. He should have talked more passionately about re-distribution of wealth, safeguarding the NHS, and inviting people from overseas to enrich our economy and culture. Instead, he tore the arse out of it regarding daft comments from clueless, Westminster-based buffoons, and trying to get Darling to agree that we could have a successful independent Scotland.

For Salmond, it was a missed opportunity (it should have been a case of shooting fish in a barrel), but that should be more of a problem for him and the SNP, than for the YES campaign. Sadly, too many people still seem to be failing to grasp the fact that this is NOT about Alex Salmond!

Edited August 6, 2014 by Drew

[BoWSaint]

You do understand how these debates work don't you. The majority of the population won't watch them on TV. Instead they'll see snippets on news programmes, and read headlines in the paper. What they'll be seeing this morning is that Salmond was asking if we'd be safe from Alf and Mork in the event of a Yes vote and that he refused point blank to name his plan B on currency despite previously stating there is a plan B, c, d and e.

Darling on the other hand appeared passionate about his desire for the best for Scotland. Darling was the clear winner as has been acknowledged by several SNP MSPs

If you had paid attention he did mention multiple other plans! Plans B, C, D and E are the euro, our own currency, pound without currency union, seashells etc. Everyone knows this. It has been known for ages and Darling knows it. But the preferred plan A for Salmond if we get independence is the pound and a currency union. The negotiation for this CAN'T start until after a YES vote (until then it is all smoke and mirrors and bluffs that don't ever need to be held to account) so until plan A negotiations completely break down, there is no need to go to plan B, C etc. He was very clear, that at the moment, we will use the pound after independence. It's pretty damn simple!

Darling was asked an even simpler question 21 (twenty-one) times. A simple yes/no question, which he refused point blank to answer about whether Scotland could be a successful independent country. I don't understand how you could have missed this and not seen that it was the exact same tactic used by both men. Is Darling so deep in negativity and project fear that his body just refuses to utter the word "yes"? It was pretty pathetic.

It is astounding that you think Alistair Darling came out of that unscathed. Even his party line of "guaranteed extra powers" which he just couldn't stop mentioning got questioned and he froze and had absolutely no answer to what these extra powers would be. It came across as pure lip service to sway gullible and naive people.

[Stuart Dickson]

That was the plan, I would imagine, but he didn't make a terribly good fist of it (MATRON!).

There was an opportunity for Salmond to emphasise issues surrounding social justice, and he didn't really take it. His comments surrounding education and tuition fees went down well, so this should have been an indication that there was a theme to be pursued that would resonate with the studio audience and viewers at home. He should have talked more passionately about re-distribution of wealth, safeguarding the NHS, and inviting people from overseas to enrich our economy and culture. Instead, he tore the arse out of it regarding daft comments from clueless, Westminster-based buffoons, and trying to get Darling to agree that we could have a successful independent Scotland.

For Salmond, it was a missed opportunity (it should have been a case of shooting fish in a barrel), but that should be more of a problem for him and the SNP, than for the YES campaign. Sadly, too many people still seem to be failing to grasp the fact that this is NOT about Alex Salmond!

It's clear Salmond was desperate to get the headline that Darling says an Independent Scotland could be successful especially when afterwards he claimed that he thought he'd eventually got Darling to agree despite Darling clearly not answering. It seems to have been the lynchpin of the Nationalist strategy and he failed to draw Darling either way.

[beyond our ken]

there was an old boy from Aberdeen on the radio hootsmon this morning calling for a general election immediately after a Yes vote to select a new leader to negotiate terms of separation, completely ignoring these facts

1. the SNP were elected at the last Scottish election with a mandate to seek a referendum and negotiate terms if the answer is yes

2. A logical consequence would be that the R-UK would then need to select a new leader to negotate their terms-he missed that

3. The SNP have already stated that they would set up a cross-political/cross-cultural group to sit on the negotiation team

Whilst i agree that there are still blanks to be filled in, you would think that the Scottish public would have grasped the fact that there is a white paper that explains much of what is proposed and argued for and that the referendum IS NOT ABOUT ALEX SALMOND.

[Stuart Dickson]

If you had paid attention he did mention multiple other plans! Plans B, C, D and E are the euro, our own currency, pound without currency union, seashells etc. Everyone knows this. It has been known for ages and Darling knows it. But the preferred plan A for Salmond if we get independence is the pound and a currency union. The negotiation for this CAN'T start until after a YES vote (until then it is all smoke and mirrors and bluffs that don't ever need to be held to account) so until plan A negotiations completely break down, there is no need to go to plan B, C etc. He was very clear, that at the moment, we will use the pound after independence. It's pretty damn simple!

Darling was asked an even simpler question 21 (twenty-one) times. A simple yes/no question, which he refused point blank to answer about whether Scotland could be a successful independent country. I don't understand how you could have missed this and not seen that it was the exact same tactic used by both men. Is Darling so deep in negativity and project fear that his body just refuses to utter the word "yes"? It was pretty pathetic.

It is astounding that you think Alistair Darling came out of that unscathed. Even his party line of "guaranteed extra powers" which he just couldn't stop mentioning got questioned and he froze and had absolutely no answer to what these extra powers would be. It came across as pure lip service to sway gullible and naive people.

I was clearly paying more attention than you. Alex Salmond clearly said that Plan B was not the Euro, and it wasn't a Scottish currency. Alastair Darling was very deliberate in his questioning. Watch it again on STV player. It's just before Darling offers Salmond the Dollar, the Rouble, the Yen and loads of other currencies as a possible Plan B.

The question Darling was repeatedly asked was if he thought Scotland could be a successful Independent country. He refused to answer it and I think rightly so. As I've said it was clearly the lynch pin of the Nationalist strategy. Darling successfully avoided headlines that he either said Scotland could be successful, and just as equally he avoided headlines saying that he though Scotland couldn't be successful.

However on the scale of things which issue do you think is more important? What currency an independent Scotland would use, or whether one man thinks Scotland has it in itself to govern itself successfully?

[Stuart Dickson]

there was an old boy from Aberdeen on the radio hootsmon this morning calling for a general election immediately after a Yes vote to select a new leader to negotiate terms of separation, completely ignoring these facts

1. the SNP were elected at the last Scottish election with a mandate to seek a referendum and negotiate terms if the answer is yes

2. A logical consequence would be that the R-UK would then need to select a new leader to negotate their terms-he missed that

3. The SNP have already stated that they would set up a cross-political/cross-cultural group to sit on the negotiation team

Whilst i agree that there are still blanks to be filled in, you would think that the Scottish public would have grasped the fact that there is a white paper that explains much of what is proposed and argued for and that the referendum IS NOT ABOUT ALEX SALMOND.

I agree with you in that the referendum isn't about Alex Salmond, but as the man who drew up the ridiculous White Paper - which has all the relevance of Andrex Toilet Paper - he's clearly going to be the centre of focus for the Nationalists campaign. Indeed I didn't see many Natsi's say - as I did - that the debate last night would be an irrelevance before it kicked off.

[WirralSaint]

Saw a nice simple explanation of the why Salmond is right to avoid questions on a Plan B, C or whatever

It’s like asking me how I’m getting to work

“I’ll take the car”

- But what if you can’t

- but I can it’s the best option

- but what if it’s broken and you can’t use it? What’s your plan B?

I don’t need one I will take the car but I can take the other car, I could take one of three buses, I could take a taxi, I could walk”

So which other method will you choose.

I won’t I’ll take the car

But what is your plan B?

Well any one of a range of options

So what transport will you use

I’ll take the car

But what if it’s broken and you can't

But it isn’t

What’s plan B?

Well there are a range of options

So how are you getting to work?

I’ll take the car

What if you can’t?

But I can

What’s plan B?

Well there are a range of options but I’ll be taking the car !!!!

You aren’t answering my question !!!!

Why should he waste valuable time on options that just aren't going to be required just so his opponents

can stall hours of time with petty arguments about bus routes, prices and convenience etc when he'll never actually need it.

[Stuart Dickson]

Saw a nice simple explanation of the why Salmond is right to avoid questions on a Plan B, C or whatever

It’s like asking me how I’m getting to work

“I’ll take the car”

- But what if you can’t

- but I can it’s the best option

- but what if it’s broken and you can’t use it? What’s your plan B?

I don’t need one I will take the car but I can take the other car, I could take one of three buses, I could take a taxi, I could walk”

So which other method will you choose.

I won’t I’ll take the car

But what is your plan B?

Well any one of a range of options

So what transport will you use

I’ll take the car

But what if it’s broken and you can't

But it isn’t

What’s plan B?

Well there are a range of options

So how are you getting to work?

I’ll take the car

What if you can’t?

But I can

What’s plan B?

Well there are a range of options but I’ll be taking the car !!!!

You aren’t answering my question !!!!

Why should he waste valuable time on options that just aren't going to be required just so his opponents

can stall hours of time with petty arguments about bus routes, prices and convenience etc when he'll never actually need it.

Plan A, according to Alex Salmond and the White Paper, is a currency union with the UK. They've been told that won't be happening - so Plan B becomes relevant. Salmond wouldn't state what Plan B was - he just insisted that Scotland would be using Sterling, that Scotland had as much right to the UK currency as the members of the UK - which seems strange since Scotland would be leaving the UK, and that Darling was right that Sterling is a fully trade able currency.

To use your analogy it's more like saying you'll be getting to work driving my car when I've told you I'm not letting you.

[Drew]

Plan A, according to Alex Salmond and the White Paper, is a currency union with the UK. They've been told that won't be happening - so Plan B becomes relevant. Salmond wouldn't state what Plan B was - he just insisted that Scotland would be using Sterling, that Scotland had as much right to the UK currency as the members of the UK - which seems strange since Scotland would be leaving the UK, and that Darling was right that Sterling is a fully trade able currency.

To use your analogy it's more like saying you'll be getting to work driving my car when I've told you I'm not letting you.

Aye, but by whom and on what authority?

Oh, yes, that's right....by a number of leaders of Westminster-based political parties on, er....no authority whatsoever.

What they've basically been saying is that its their ball, and Scotland won't be getting a game.

Well, that's not quite correct, is it?

Firstly, it ain't their ball any more than it is Alex Salmond's or the future leader of an independent Scotland, whoever that might be. Secondly, if one of them comes to power after the next general election, they will be there to represent the people of the UK. If, as seems eminently possible, Scotland being prohibited from using the pound would impact adversely on trading partners in the UK, then I suspect they might have to reconsider this particular position.

Personally, I'm all for a seperate currency in a Scottish republic, but we'll just have to campaign for that in due course.

[Happy Buddie]

Plan A, according to Alex Salmond and the White Paper, is a currency union with the UK. They've been told that won't be happening - so Plan B becomes relevant. Salmond wouldn't state what Plan B was - he just insisted that Scotland would be using Sterling, that Scotland had as much right to the UK currency as the members of the UK - which seems strange since Scotland would be leaving the UK, and that Darling was right that Sterling is a fully trade able currency.

To use your analogy it's more like saying you'll be getting to work driving my car when I've told you I'm not letting you.

Scotland won't be leaving the UK. When Scotland gains indepencence, there will be no UK (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) it'll be a different political entity from what it is now, the UK will be broken into two pieces, Scotland and something else, the United States of the Kingdoms of England and Northern ireland and the Principality of Wales.

[davidg]

Plan A, according to Alex Salmond and the White Paper, is a currency union with the UK. They've been told that won't be happening - so Plan B becomes relevant. Salmond wouldn't state what Plan B was - he just insisted that Scotland would be using Sterling, that Scotland had as much right to the UK currency as the members of the UK - which seems strange since Scotland would be leaving the UK, and that Darling was right that Sterling is a fully trade able currency.

To use your analogy it's more like saying you'll be getting to work driving my car when I've told you I'm not letting you.

Which leads nicely on to the points about driving on the other side of the road and tax from outer space.

We can't believe anything "Project Fear" tell us.

If we gain independence we will keep the pound.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Kingdom of England, Province of Northern Ireland & Principality of Wales?

[oaksoft]

Aye, but by whom and on what authority?

Oh, yes, that's right....by a number of leaders of Westminster-based political parties on, er....no authority whatsoever.

What they've basically been saying is that its their ball, and Scotland won't be getting a game.

Well, that's not quite correct, is it?

Firstly, it ain't their ball any more than it is Alex Salmond's or the future leader of an independent Scotland, whoever that might be. Secondly, if one of them comes to power after the next general election, they will be there to represent the people of the UK. If, as seems eminently possible, Scotland being prohibited from using the pound would impact adversely on trading partners in the UK, then I suspect they might have to reconsider this particular position.

Personally, I'm all for a seperate currency in a Scottish republic, but we'll just have to campaign for that in due course.

Exactly. BT say No to a CU and apparently that's the gospel never to be questioned truth.

No supporters can't understand why Yes simply can't accept that. That's the nub of the plan A plan B shite.

There is no debate to be had here. Yes are going into this vote saying there will be a CU, No are going in saying there won't be.

Discussion over. Full stop. Final.

Voters will now have to vote on who they trust to be telling the fewest porkies.

Put yourself in the position of an undecided on this issue.

One side is effectively saying "we'll work together for the benefit of both sides".

In response, the other is shouting and finger jabbing on live TV and essentially saying "we'd rather take on ALL the debt put up trade barriers, veto your EU application, put up borders, and absolutely grind our own country into the dirt before agreeing to work with you".

Which of those sounds reasonable?

[oaksoft]

For all those who think Darling beat the crap out of Salmond last night, stop and think for a second.

Darling spent 2 hours foaming at the mouth attacking Salmond, yelling, using a hectoring tone and using condescending language.

Exactly what he's been accusing Salmond of for 2 years.

He stopped just short of getting his dick out on live TV, walking across the stage and slapping Alex across the chops with it.

All this macho pish may play well with Daily Record readers but the vast majority of undecideds are WOMEN.

On the whole women just don't respond to naked middle aged male aggression.

On that score, Salmond will have come across better.

IMO there will be little or no change in the next set of polls based on last night.

Edited August 6, 2014 by oaksoft

[TopCat]

Exactly. BT say No to a CU and apparently that's the gospel never to be questioned truth.

No supporters can't understand why Yes simply can't accept that. That's the nub of the plan A plan B shite.

There is no debate to be had here. Yes are going into this vote saying there will be a CU, No are going in saying there won't be.

Discussion over. Full stop. Final.

Voters will now have to vote on who they trust to be telling the fewest porkies.

Put yourself in the position of an undecided on this issue.

One side is effectively saying "we'll work together for the benefit of both sides".

In response, the other is shouting and finger jabbing on live TV and essentially saying "we'd rather take on ALL the debt put up trade barriers, veto your EU application, put up borders, and absolutely grind our own country into the dirt before agreeing to work with you".

Which of those sounds reasonable?

It's not BT that say no to a CU. It's the rUK that says no to a CU.

After all, it's them would decide on a proposed CU in the event of a yes vote.

Salmond and YES wants us to believe that the rUK is bluffing though, and that they really do want a CU.

He wants us to gamble the future of our nation on the hope of a bluff. Yes, really.

No wonder we are voting no!

[BoWSaint]

So rUK's stance is that they will quite willingly and openly cut off their nose to spite their face?

We don't care how sensible or beneficial a currency union is for us we will stubbornly oppose this purely to win an argument even if it does untold damage to our country.

Acting like kids!

[oaksoft]

It's not BT that say no to a CU. It's the rUK that says no to a CU.

After all, it's them would decide on a proposed CU in the event of a yes vote.

Oh FFS are you just taking the piss?

Can there POSSIBLY be any sane person out there who doesn't think the UK government controls BT?

[foxbar_bud]

IMO there will be little or no change in the next set of polls based on last night.

I would agree with that, but on that note, surely that suits BT much better than Yes so in terms of that they will be happier witb last night?

All the polls still show a No vote winning. Therefore they will be happy to maintain the gap and not rock the boat?

FWIW, I dont think either 'won' but i would say i wasnt as impressed with Salmond as i have previously been. Not sure if pressure got to him as pretty much everyone expected him to comfortably but AD in his place. I think last night was the last chance for YES to make the last surge towards a win, presonally cant see it happening now.

[BoWSaint]

It's not BT that say no to a CU. It's the rUK that says no to a CU.

After all, it's them would decide on a proposed CU in the event of a yes vote.

Salmond and YES wants us to believe that the rUK is bluffing though, and that they really do want a CU.

He wants us to gamble the future of our nation on the hope of a bluff. Yes, really.

No wonder we are voting no!

How can they say no when they haven't even entered into the negotiation. They won't even give the Scottish government the respect of listening to what they have to offer before telling them to feck off.

If, during the negotiations it turned out that rUK had to shoulder the entire UK debt and let Scotland start off completely debt free would they want to enter into talks then? How stubborn will they be to the detriment of their own union? Of course it's all hypothetical, it's all in the future so it is meaningless at the moment, just like rUK saying a currency union won't happen. The talks can never happen unless a YES vote happens, at which point everything has changed and then they will have to negotiate. Do you expect them to just sit with their fingers in their ears pretending not to listen. They can't be THAT childish.

[oaksoft]

I would agree with that, but on that note, surely that suits BT much better than Yes so in terms of that they will be happier witb last night?

All the polls still show a No vote winning. Therefore they will be happy to maintain the gap and not rock the boat?

FWIW, I dont think either 'won' but i would say i wasnt as impressed with Salmond as i have previously been. Not sure if pressure got to him as pretty much everyone expected him to comfortably but AD in his place. I think last night was the last chance for YES to make the last surge towards a win, presonally cant see it happening now.

Yeah I think that's possibly true IF you believe the polls.

My personal opinion is that the polls are innaccurate and I have good reasons for saying that.

The ICM poll for example showed swings to both Yes and No on all age categories which were laughable.

I thought Salmond did OK but as I said earlier the main aim was to say the same things to a wider audience who were maybe only engaging for the first time in the entire process.

What they would have seen is one man calm, measured and concilliatory and the other shouting, pointing fingers and losing his rag for 2 hours on every issue.

It's my hope that undecided voters will have seen a different Salmond to the bullying hectoring arrogant bastard that the press have been telling us about.

This Salmond was nervous, seemingly quiet and eager to portray positive stuff to the exclusion of everything else. He came across as being bullied by Darling.

It hasn't even occurred to anyone that maybe this was a deliberate ploy on his behalf to come across better to women who may now feel like mothering him a bit.

Or it could simply be that a seasoned campaigner over several decades suddenly and inexplicably shat himself last night.