The Referendum Thread

[Phil McCracken]

What's the odds on that ever happening, he can't even copy bluto's made up word properly.........

deary me

do you and slarti share the same brain cell?

[salmonbuddie]

Yep, we do. One more than you, StuD & iTony can muster between you, mind.

[Stuart Dickson]

Wasn't it nice to see the Scottish Government award Fergusons Ship Builders - now owned by Independence Supporter Jim McColl - a new £12m contract for Cal Mac Ferries just one month after the company went into administration due to a lack of orders, and just two weeks after McColl won the bidding process to buy up the firm at a knock down price.

You'd think those tin foil wearing conspiracy theorists who reckoned the whole referendum vote was rigged despite assertions from the Yes Campaign when it clearly wasn't, would have turned their attention to this with obvious questions like - why wasn't this order placed one month earlier thereby keeping workers in a job? Why did the Scottish Government feel the need to withhold orders to force the company to collapse and to pay off all it's skilled workers? And why did it only place the new order once Jim McColl had taken over the business? You'd also think they'd be asking questions like - Is this Jim McColls pay off for being supportive of a Yes Vote? And was this similar to when the Scottish Government let David Murray buy the £50m valued Princes Mall Shopping Centre in Edinburgh for just 40p the day after David Murray issued a press statement declaring that he had changed his mind as was now supportive of Independence in Scotland?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

There might be a point to the wishaw wanker's claims IF they were accurate

[RickMcD]

You seem to be in the know about this (lol) so I'll ask you:

1. Was this job put out to tender?

2. If it was, when was it done?

3. If it was, how many other companies bid for it and what companies were they?

4. If it was and there were other bids, what were the bids?

5. Was the timetable for the order set out previously, e.g. closing dates for bids, when the successful bid would be announced etc.?

6. If so, what was the timetable?

7. Have the Scottish Government complied with all UK and EU legislation regarding this and does any of this legislation have a bearing on the award of the bid?

8. Did any other bidders have any experience in building this type of ship (Ferguson's have already built two of them)?

9. Is it "value for money"?

and finally,

10. If other Scottish shipyards win MOD orders will you be saying that they are only getting them because their bosses backed a No vote?

I've not posted in this thread since before the polling date and don't intend to link this to any referendum issue but something here doesn't add up. It's great news that Fergusons is surviving but getting a new order this quickly does seem a bit strange. Politicians of every party can do devious things and if it works out well I don't give a toss. Jim McColl's lot only bought the yard about a month ago and I think a little transparency about just what went on might be in the public interest.

[Stuart Dickson]

You seem to be in the know about this (lol) so I'll ask you:

1. Was this job put out to tender?

2. If it was, when was it done?

3. If it was, how many other companies bid for it and what companies were they?

4. If it was and there were other bids, what were the bids?

5. Was the timetable for the order set out previously, e.g. closing dates for bids, when the successful bid would be announced etc.?

6. If so, what was the timetable?

7. Have the Scottish Government complied with all UK and EU legislation regarding this and does any of this legislation have a bearing on the award of the bid?

8. Did any other bidders have any experience in building this type of ship (Ferguson's have already built two of them)?

9. Is it "value for money"?

and finally,

10. If other Scottish shipyards win MOD orders will you be saying that they are only getting them because their bosses backed a No vote?

I'm not claiming to be in the know at all, however this website has been an excellent source of information when it comes to Fergusons Shipyard and last month they wrote this article.

http://forargyll.com/2014/08/why-has-scottish-government-let-fergusons-shipyard-go-down/

Ferguson’s shipyard in Port Glasgow has gone into administration, bringing the loss of 70 jobs with immediate effect.

Administrators KPMG have said that this situation has been brought about by a lack of orders allied to increasing cash flow problems.

The century-old Ferguson’s is the last shipyard on the lower Clyde. It was building ships until 10 months ago.

It built the previous two new vehicle and passenger ferries for Western Ferries before its current two new ferries, which were built at Cammell Laird on the Mersey.

It built two much-awarded new hybrid diesel-electric ferries for Caledonian Maritime Assets Limited [CMAL], owned by the Scottish Government. The last of these, MV Lochinvar – lead boat in the recent Commonwealth Games Flotilla on the Clyde on 26th July 2014, was the last new boat to go down its slip and is now in service with CalMac on Loch Fyne, on the Tarbert-Portavadie route.

While the hybrids were in construction, Western contracted its most recent new ferries, which, with Ferguson’s busy, went to Lairds.

The jobs lost today at Ferguson’s are skilled jobs – skills that, once gone, will be gone for good.

The puzzle here is why the Scottish Government has allowed the shipbuilder to go down?

This is the government responsible today for Scotland’s economy and for the base of its future economy.

This is the government campaigning to take Scotland into an independence that will require new vessels, many of the size Ferguson’s can build.

CMAL is presiding over an obviously ageing fleet, with breakdowns on technical failures an increasing feature. CMAL must have an order book which will contain all sizes of the very varied vessels in the fleet it owns and leases to CalMac.

Why did the Scottish Government not step in to place an order with Ferguson’s through CMAL that would have kept the yard going comfortably until additional contracts came in? We are aware of some that ought to be coming up for tender in around a year or so.

This is not an action depending on the now tedious ‘financial levers only independence can bring’.

This is an action the Scottish Government could have taken at any time – and still can. It has all of the powers to do this., Why has it done so?

Two days ago Jamie McGrigor MSP, in the Scottish Parliament, asked the Deputy First Minister to honour her pledge to Dunoon to make it known by the end of August whether or not there are to be two new vessels built for the Gourock-Dunoon passenger ferry contract.

It is inconceivable that she does not kw the answer to that question now – and Dunoon has been all-but promised new passenger boats.

Such a contract would have been a lifesaver for Fergusons.

The First Minister talks grandly and often of the imperative and the intention to ‘reindustrialise Scotland’.

Does he exclude shipbuilding from that concept and from that will? Are these skills Mr Salmond sees as redundant to Scotlånd, within or without the United Kingdom?

It looks as if these skills and this industry have been written off by this government, since it has the authority, the means and has had every opportunity to save this yard.

Letting Ferguson’s go makes a nonsense of so much of the campaign promises and ‘visions’ sent out to trap votes for the 18th September.

A business like Ferguson’s with its capacity and its skilled workforce is a matter any responsible and competent government would have been exercised to save; and with which it would have engaged fast rather than going on television and talking about allegations of alien invasions.

This is. of course, the government whose eye was so far off the ball that it almost lost the Grangemouth Refinery and Ptrochemicals facility – and Falkirk – because it was having its big indy party conference last year.

The Scottish Government was asleep at the wheel then and now. It was late to react then and it is late to react today. Whatever efforts may be made now ought to have been long made before this crisis point arrived. What has the responsible Infrastructure and Investment Secretary – aka the Deputy First Minister – been doing with her time?

Listen up, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon.

The job you were elected to do is to govern the Scotland of today.

There should be questions to answer. Jimmy McGrigor appears to be the only man capable of posing those questions. Let's hope he does so and we get the kind of scrutiny over this as we - the Scottish Taxpayers - deserve.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[salmonbuddie]

Let's hope his scrutiny is better than yours, you can't even get his name right.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Good to know it's just more allegations with no back up then. Pissing in the wind, off the side of the ferry?

[Stuart Dickson]

Did you not say at the time that Ferguson's was closing down that (something along the lines of) you hoped that the Scottish Government did not buy them like they did Prestwick. So, you got your wish and now you complain that they actually use the facilities that are being run by your much loved private sector. If it had been a No supporter or someone who was "unaligned" that bought the yard and then got the order, would you be making a fuss about it? Probably not, or are you trying to say that the order wouldn't have been placed in that situation?

You defend the private sector influence in the NHS while hundreds of MPs and Lords apparently have vested interests in these private companies - make up your mind, is private good or bad, is apparent (or otherwise) "favouritism" good or bad? Just pick a side and stick to it without making out that if Westminster do it then it is OK but if Holyrood do it then it's bad.

You still never answered the question about further MOD work (or any of the others - saying you don't know is totally acceptable) - well?. I'm also still waiting for this proof of my "toys out the pram" posts that you claim I made - found any yet or are you just going to keep changing the subject so that you don't have to admit you lied?

Nope. I made exactly the same point I'm making now as you can read for yourself.

http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/38723-ferguson-shipyard-scottish-government/?p=1204168

I was annoyed and frustrated by the SNP reaction to the news the yard had gone into administration and pointed out that the SNP had always had it within their gift to keep the yard open. It does now appear that I was correct that the SNP government was playing fast and loose with people's livelihoods in order to score political points.

[Stuart Dickson]

So the answer you were looking for was "Yes" not "Nope".

The Scottish Government uses "their power" to place an order to ensure the yard has work - that's what you wanted and now you complain.

So it was good news when it was bought by Clyde Blowers but not good news when an order is placed - how does that work?

The Scottish Government could have committed to the order in August prior to the administrators being called in. Even when the administrator was there they had ample opportunity to step in and place their order. Instead they held off forcing the previous management out of the door, putting workers out of work, and creating an opportunity for one of their highest profile supporters to make a quick pile of cash - and they did so with the sole purpose of trying to score political points.

I'm still delighted the yard will stay open. I'm glad that most of the workers made redundant are now back in employment. But none of this should have happened in the first place if these politicians - rotten to the core and full of their own self interest - hadn't decided to make these jobs their political football.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So that's Lord Smith written to the 5 party leaders at Holyrood asking for their proposals on taking forward 'devo max'. He wrote the letter on Friday with a deadline of 10th Oct. So nae rushing it then...

[northendsaint]

The Scottish Government could have committed to the order in August prior to the administrators being called in. Even when the administrator was there they had ample opportunity to step in and place their order. Instead they held off forcing the previous management out of the door, putting workers out of work, and creating an opportunity for one of their highest profile supporters to make a quick pile of cash - and they did so with the sole purpose of trying to score political points.

I'm still delighted the yard will stay open. I'm glad that most of the workers made redundant are now back in employment. But none of this should have happened in the first place if these politicians - rotten to the core and full of their own self interest - hadn't decided to make these jobs their political football.

Politicians and self interest Stuart,surely not..I would never have believed it.Thank god you come on this forum to share your wisdom.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Careful broony, he'll take that post literally.

[northendsaint]

Careful broony, he'll take that post literally.

Between you and i and i know it wont go any further but i personally want to kick his c**t in.

[saintnextlifetime]

Between you and i and i know it wont go any further but i personally want to kick his c**t in.

You'll just have to wait your turn , big Brooney , just like the rest of us. .

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Gordy Broon wants us all to sign a petition. That's a poor attempt at trolling the electorate.

[ALBIONSAINT]

I'm not claiming to be in the know at all, however this website has been an excellent source of information when it comes to Fergusons Shipyard and last month they wrote this article.

http://forargyll.com/2014/08/why-has-scottish-government-let-fergusons-shipyard-go-down/

There should be questions to answer. Jimmy McGrigor appears to be the only man capable of posing those questions. Let's hope he does so and we get the kind of scrutiny over this as we - the Scottish Taxpayers - deserve.

Please find below the editorial policy of this website, in short it's the Argyle version of the Digger for local matters, pay particular attention to the term 'openly editorialised' which basically means you can insert personal opinion on objective statements. Now I don't know about you, but it seems like the last place you would look for factual information. Unless it suits your argument of course.

This is a statement of the current position in what, as an online service reacting to the relative immaturity, fluidity and flexibility of the medium, will be a constantly evolving policy.

Content

In terms of the nature of our content, it is often openly ‘editorialised’ – that is our style and our conscious policy. It is the direction in which news services are developing, enabled by the impact of online digital media and by the direct communications this makes possible. From the outset, For Argyll has been a leading exponent of this development. Earlier this year we we were rated by Technorati as the 8,000th best site in the world using blogging technology.

[shull]

What's Gordon Brown got to do with anything ?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

He was camerons right hand man when it came to saving the union.

Here's a petition, give it a sign

https://www.change.org/p/gordon-brown-mp-go-f**k-yourself

Night, night

[shull]

He was camerons right hand man when it came to saving the union.

Here's a petition, give it a sign

https://www.change.org/p/gordon-brown-mp-go-f**k-yourself

Night, night

Night night Tone

[saltcoatsbuddie]

no thanks

[beyond our ken]

Wasn't it nice to see the Scottish Government award Fergusons Ship Builders - now owned by Independence Supporter Jim McColl - a new £12m contract for Cal Mac Ferries just one month after the company went into administration due to a lack of orders, and just two weeks after McColl won the bidding process to buy up the firm at a knock down price.

You'd think those tin foil wearing conspiracy theorists who reckoned the whole referendum vote was rigged despite assertions from the Yes Campaign when it clearly wasn't, would have turned their attention to this with obvious questions like - why wasn't this order placed one month earlier thereby keeping workers in a job? Why did the Scottish Government feel the need to withhold orders to force the company to collapse and to pay off all it's skilled workers? And why did it only place the new order once Jim McColl had taken over the business? You'd also think they'd be asking questions like - Is this Jim McColls pay off for being supportive of a Yes Vote? And was this similar to when the Scottish Government let David Murray buy the £50m valued Princes Mall Shopping Centre in Edinburgh for just 40p the day after David Murray issued a press statement declaring that he had changed his mind as was now supportive of Independence in Scotland?

Prior to placing an order of this value, due dilligence requires that all bidders for work undergo a credit-worthyness check

I'd imagine that prior to the summer, Ferguson's rating would have been in the shitter since they were already going bust. There is no knowing who would have got the yard if an order was placed, indeed there is no knowing where another owner might have taken the work to. One thing is for sure, had the new ferry already been in the order book, the yard would suddenly have become way more attractive to bidders from far and wide and the work could have gone anywhere

[faraway saint]

Good programme on BBC at 10:30 tonight........................

Oops, thought this was the telly thread.

[saintnextlifetime]

Yes , please. .

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Good programme on BBC at 10:30 tonight........................

Oops, thought this was the telly thread.

Think the beeb will mention there role in it?