Shipbuilding Job Losses.

[shull]

800 jobs to go between the 3 Yards in Scotland.

Those at Govan, Scotstoun and Rosyth.

Hopefully voluntary redundancy and natural wastage will count for most of the losses.

The Yard at Portsmouth will close with the loss of 1000 jobs.

[HSS]

800 jobs to go between the 3 Yards in Scotland.

Those at Govan, Scotstoun and Rosyth.

Hopefully voluntary redundancy and natural wastage will count for most of the losses.

The Yard at Portsmouth will close with the loss of 1000 jobs.

It could have been a lot worse.

This leaves Glasgow as the main ship building area in the UK.Would probably have been shut down if it wasn't for a certain vote taking place next year.

[Stuart Dickson]

It could have been a lot worse.

This leaves Glasgow as the main ship building area in the UK.Would probably have been shut down if it wasn't for a certain vote taking place next year.

It could still be closed down if the vote doesn't go in a particular way either.

To be totally honest I don't think either of the yards in Glasgow are completely suitable for the modern world of shipbuilding anyway. Scotstoun in particular appears to have been listing badly since I was an apprentice. I'm glad that it will continue to limp on but I can't help but feel disappointed that once again it looks like a political decision rather than one taken on the respective business case for each of the yards.

[zurich_allan]

Terrible news, I know people that have worked in BAE in the past, and indeed some who work there currently. However I also know people in other linked areas to this, and was led to believe by one of them today that the decisions relating to these yards are nothing whatsoever to do with politics / the independence referendum, and entirely down to a MOD strategic decision. Of course I can't confirm that, just what I've been told.

[stlucifer]

It's certainly a big blow for the Scottish yards but I really feel for the people of Pompey.

I worked in the docks on quite a few occasions upgrading systems on the frigates and aircraft carriers.

The town seemed already on its knees when I was there and this will certainly be a further body blow to it.

[Lex]

Let's hope Scotland remains part of the union so Govan can continue in its historical role as the nations ship builder.

[oaksoft]

Let's hope Scotland remains part of the union so Govan can continue in its historical role as the nations ship builder.

FFS what kind of person tries to score political points on a day like this when thousands of people face an uncertain future?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Let's hope Scotland remains part of the union so Govan can continue in its historical role as the nations ship builder.

A poor attempt at political point scoring.

The MoD have announced that 3 new boats will be built from 2016. Unfortunately, there is a new defence review due in 2015 which could literally sink any prospect of this work actually being started.

Of course the referendum vote will have taken place by then...

Thoughts with all the individual workers and families affected, as shull says hope they get the majority of local job losses through voluntary means.

[Kendo]

The only reason that the Clyde shipyard is being saved is because we have a vote for an independent Scotland next year. Had this not been the case it would have been closed in the blink of an eye and the work moved to Portsmouth. Well done Alex Salmond and the SNP

[saintnextlifetime]

The only reason that the Clyde shipyard is being saved is because we have a vote for an independent Scotland next year. Had this not been the case it would have been closed in the blink of an eye and the work moved to Portsmouth. Well done Alex Salmond and the SNP

Nick Robinson at the BBC confirmed the very same this morning . However , he did say that Scottish independence could alter the destination for future RN contracts. .

[RickMcD]

I find it intriguing that both sides in this discussion don't even seem to think it possible that the Clyde is the right place to retain the confidence of BAE systems as the best place to continue building ships. I heard the CEO or somebody from BAE being interviewed and he sounded quite sincere. Even the seperatists seem to imply that the guys at Govan possibly don't deserve it. I do and good luck to them.

[bluto]

I find it intriguing that both sides in this discussion don't even seem to think it possible that the Clyde is the right place to retain the confidence of BAE systems as the best place to continue building ships. I heard the CEO or somebody from BAE being interviewed and he sounded quite sincere. Even the seperatists seem to imply that the guys at Govan possibly don't deserve it. I do and good luck to them.

I agree.

Political point scoring from both sides here, when it might well be (probably is) irrelevant.

Though all of life is political...

[Seaside Nipper]

A poor attempt at political point scoring.

The MoD have announced that 3 new boats will be built from 2016. Unfortunately, there is a new defence review due in 2015 which could literally sink any prospect of this work actually being started.

Of course the referendum vote will have taken place by then...

Thoughts with all the individual workers and families affected, as shull says hope they get the majority of local job losses through voluntary means.

Truth be told, the anti Scottish sentiment will be pretty strong down Jamaica Inn way tonight. Some of the misinformed anti Scottish rants already aired are a sign the gloves are off now.

[Seaside Nipper]

I find it intriguing that both sides in this discussion don't even seem to think it possible that the Clyde is the right place to retain the confidence of BAE systems as the best place to continue building ships. I heard the CEO or somebody from BAE being interviewed and he sounded quite sincere. Even the seperatists seem to imply that the guys at Govan possibly don't deserve it. I do and good luck to them.

BAE themselves have stated categorically that Clyde is the centre of excellence and the only logical choice , the logic is based on sound Economic and Commercial decisions and if possible to believe was an apolitical decision.

Anyway.............fact is far too many people North and South are tonight facing unemployment. That is the true horror and shame in all o.f this

[Stuart Dickson]

BAE themselves have stated categorically that Clyde is the centre of excellence and the only logical choice , the logic is based on sound Economic and Commercial decisions and if possible to believe was an apolitical decision.

Anyway.............fact is far too many people North and South are tonight facing unemployment. That is the true horror and shame in all o.f this

How can it possibly be "apolitical"? The yards being kept open are being done so because the Ministry of Defence, under instruction from the UK Government, have placed orders for naval ships using UK taxpayers money. I'm a Tory voter and a supporter of the Conservatives - and I note that they are trying to distance themselves from all of this - but FFS you'd need to be utterly naive not to see what's going on. If the vote goes against the union in 2014 just watch as the orders suddenly disappear down to Portsmouth and Bristol instead.

I've worked at shipbuilders on the Clyde and I find it laughable that anyone would call either Govan or Scotstoun a Centre of Excellence. So far as pipefitting and welding went in down the Clyde you only worked at the shipbuilders if you really couldn't find much better paid work in the refineries.

Nick Robinson - BBC's Political Editor - posted this on the BBC website tonight

I'm told that Govan has two advantages over Portsmouth - a lower cost base and a partnership with the Scotstoun shipyard on the other side of the Clyde.

Tory strategists point out that it's hardly in their political interests to save a Scottish shipyard and part close an English one.

Nevertheless, it's clear that there can be no decision on something as significant as the building of warships without a great deal of political calculation.

As I reported yesterday, one well-placed source told me that the government was "acutely conscious of the politics of the Clyde" and did not want to give Alex Salmond a gift a little less than a year ahead of the independence referendum.

[RickMcD]

How can it possibly be "apolitical"? The yards being kept open are being done so because the Ministry of Defence, under instruction from the UK Government, have placed orders for naval ships using UK taxpayers money. I'm a Tory voter and a supporter of the Conservatives - and I note that they are trying to distance themselves from all of this - but FFS you'd need to be utterly naive not to see what's going on. If the vote goes against the union in 2014 just watch as the orders suddenly disappear down to Portsmouth and Bristol instead.

I've worked at shipbuilders on the Clyde and I find it laughable that anyone would call either Govan or Scotstoun a Centre of Excellence. So far as pipefitting and welding went in down the Clyde you only worked at the shipbuilders if you really couldn't find much better paid work in the refineries.

Nick Robinson - BBC's Political Editor - posted this on the BBC website tonight

How can it possibly be "apolitical"? The yards being kept open are being done so because the Ministry of Defence, under instruction from the UK Government, have placed orders for naval ships using UK taxpayers money. I'm a Tory voter and a supporter of the Conservatives - and I note that they are trying to distance themselves from all of this - but FFS you'd need to be utterly naive not to see what's going on. If the vote goes against the union in 2014 just watch as the orders suddenly disappear down to Portsmouth and Bristol instead.

I've worked at shipbuilders on the Clyde and I find it laughable that anyone would call either Govan or Scotstoun a Centre of Excellence. So far as pipefitting and welding went in down the Clyde you only worked at the shipbuilders if you really couldn't find much better paid work in the refineries.

Nick Robinson - BBC's Political Editor - posted this on the BBC website tonight

Stu. you believe everything you read and everything you make up.

[faraway saint]

Stu. you believe everything you read and everything you make up.

Hmm, interesting post.

What are you trying to say, as the post is open to all sort of connotations.

On its own, very strange as we tend to believe what we read, more so if it's written by a reliable source and, obviously, if it backs up our own view.

Back on topic, seems there's a lot to come out in the wash. Obviously the cheap shot is the vote taking place next year. This could have had some influence on the decision, and might not.

I'm not convinced the Scottish shipbuilding companies are better in any way, certainly not enough to be seen as some "centre of excellence", a term thrown about with no real basis and rarely proven to be so.

Overall, as Bluto mentioned, the tragedy is that many people will lose jobs and families will suffer.

Edited November 7, 2013 by faraway saint

[shull]

Hmm, interesting post.

What are you trying to say, as the post is open to all sort of connotations.

On its own, very strange as we tend to believe what we read, more so if it's written by a reliable source and, obviously, if it backs up our own view.

Back on topic, seems there's a lot to come out in the wash. Obviously the cheap shot is the vote taking place next year. This could have had some influence on the decision, and might not.

I'm not convinced the Scottish shipbuilding companies are better in any way, certainly not enough to be seen as some "centre of excellence", a term thrown about with no real basis and rarely proven to be so.

Overall, as Bluto mentioned, the tragedy is that many people will lose jobs and families will suffer.

Good post shocker !

[faraway saint]

Good post shocker !

Fcuk off, you drag me down.......................

[shull]

Fcuk off, you drag me down.......................

Welcome back !

[Seaside Nipper]

Hmm, interesting post.

What are you trying to say, as the post is open to all sort of connotations.

On its own, very strange as we tend to believe what we read, more so if it's written by a reliable source and, obviously, if it backs up our own view.

Back on topic, seems there's a lot to come out in the wash. Obviously the cheap shot is the vote taking place next year. This could have had some influence on the decision, and might not.

I'm not convinced the Scottish shipbuilding companies are better in any way, certainly not enough to be seen as some "centre of excellence", a term thrown about with no real basis and rarely proven to be so.

Overall, as Bluto and the empathetic SN mentioned, the tragedy is that many people will lose jobs and families will suffer.

Yes quite.

Anyway, as you may have seen there was a very well informed and articulate Emeritus Prof or similarly labelled gentleman on tv last night pointing out that Shipbuilding on the Clyde , ( and let's be honest he's correct ) has been in decline and has existed via subsidy and a hand to mouth existence for decades now. Time and again a political bail out in the form of a Naval vessel build award has saved the place. Of course he is right as like a repeat cycle Govan rears it's head with a looming crisis, it's the nature of the beast. Japan ,Korea , Poland as well as several other countries are vastly more efficient at producing ships than any yard in Great Britain..this is fact. It was interesting to note the a Union convenor ( I think he was the Yarrow's chap) admit last night that on price the yards couldn't compete , ( no shit Sherlock ) however 'Clyde Built were the best in the world'. In terms of 'quality we are the best' .......conveniently glossed over any relevance to cost right enough !! Also that with some investment Cluyde Yards would be the best in the world again..............I couldn't figure out whether the Convenor was pished or simply deluded and was still living in the late fifties early sixties.

Here's the thing ................the world has changed

[faraway saint]

Yes quite.

Anyway, as you may have seen there was a very well informed and articulate Emeritus Prof or similarly labelled gentleman on tv last night pointing out that Shipbuilding on the Clyde , ( and let's be honest he's correct ) has been in decline and has existed via subsidy and a hand to mouth existence for decades now. Time and again a political bail out in the form of a Naval vessel build award has saved the place. Of course he is right as like a repeat cycle Govan rears it's head with a looming crisis, it's the nature of the beast. Japan ,Korea , Poland as well as several other countries are vastly more efficient at producing ships than any yard in Great Britain..this is fact. It was interesting to note the a Union convenor ( I think he was the Yarrow's chap) admit last night that on price the yards couldn't compete , ( no shit Sherlock ) however 'Clyde Built were the best in the world'. In terms of 'quality we are the best' .......conveniently glossed over any relevance to cost right enough !! Also that with some investment Cluyde Yards would be the best in the world again..............I couldn't figure out whether the Convenor was pished or simply deluded and was still living in the late fifties early sixties.

Here's the thing ................the world has changed

Indeed, this "Clyde Built" term was something that was thrown around when I was a youngster and, on the whole, believed.

Slightly going off topic but this has some relevance, in the late 80's, when I was working in the Skill Centre in Hillington, we were asked by a company, based on the Clyde, who had diversified into producing Gas Turbines, mainly for Russia at the time, to visit as they were having serious problems recruiting skilled workers.

While being shown around I was puzzled as the size of the workforce wasn't particularly large and surely there were many "skilled" guys out there who had worked in the shipyards screaming for a decent job? The manager explained that, yes there were hundreds, maybe thousands, of guys who were ex shipbuilding employees not employed in engineering but the levels of skill they possessed were not what was required in engineering at that time.

He went onto tell how these world famous ships, that had the glory of being launched by the Queen, were in working order but, in fact, had few parts that were made to the original specification. The amount of "bits" that were made to suit other "bits" that were not to specification only came to light when these ships went in for a refit and the cost went through the roof as the majority of parts were nothing close to the original spec.

He had tried to employee many of these guys who had the attitude of "It's close enough" and couldn't shake themselves out of this approach which certainly isn't what is required in todays world, hence the reason he was looking for guys to train from scratch who had, at least, the ethos that parts had to be made right, and first time.

This obviously led to these yards becoming more and more inefficient, and the figures being touted in the last few days about the eventual cost of the last orders seem to suggest things are not much better.

[Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes]

Witnessing all this the thought springs to mind that if you’re a business and you only have one customer then by and large you’re always going to be in a precarious position.

[Seaside Nipper]

Indeed, this "Clyde Built" term was something that was thrown around when I was a youngster and, on the whole, believed.

Slightly going off topic but this has some relevance, in the late 80's, when I was working in the Skill Centre in Hillington, we were asked by a company, based on the Clyde, who had diversified into producing Gas Turbines, mainly for Russia at the time, to visit as they were having serious problems recruiting skilled workers.

While being shown around I was puzzled as the size of the workforce wasn't particularly large and surely there were many "skilled" guys out there who had worked in the shipyards screaming for a decent job? The manager explained that, yes there were hundreds, maybe thousands, of guys who were ex shipbuilding employees not employed in engineering but the levels of skill they possessed were not what was required in engineering at that time.

He went onto tell how these world famous ships, that had the glory of being launched by the Queen, were in working order but, in fact, had few parts that were made to the original specification. The amount of "bits" that were made to suit other "bits" that were not to specification only came to light when these ships went in for a refit and the cost went through the roof as the majority of parts were nothing close to the original spec.

He had tried to employee many of these guys who had the attitude of "It's close enough" and couldn't shake themselves out of this approach which certainly isn't what is required in todays world, hence the reason he was looking for guys to train from scratch who had, at least, the ethos that parts had to be made right, and first time.

This obviously led to these yards becoming more and more inefficient, and the figures being touted in the last few days about the eventual cost of the last orders seem to suggest things are not much better.

You could have been too good a draughtsman ( allegedly ) back in the day. No money without a bit of rework !?!? When the attitude is to hell wi gettin it right first time, who in their right mind can see the commercial sense in that, unlewss of course it is public subsidy you are pishin away into the Clyde.

Anyway..............point scoring games now aherm , launched.

[RickMcD]

There was a myriad of causes for the decline in the shipbuilding industry in the British Isles but lack of ability in the workforce wasn't one of them. I had a most enjoyable relationship with Harland & Wolff and dealing with the directors and accountants as I was, I got an insight into the problems they faced from foreign shipyards. It all came down to finance as almost everything did then and still does now. In the late 70's and early 80's, shipyards all over the world were building Suezmax tankers and the going price being quoted by Korean yards was around $25m. At that time, Harland's annual payroll was getting on for £40M. A lot of workers in Korea were earning about $25 per week and a bag of rice. It's not hard to do the maths, is it? In addition, industrial relations in the UK were abysmal and ignoring whose fault that was, it made it well nigh impossible to deliver on time. A partial answer was of course to cut corners which has been alluded to already. One example in Belfast was that H & W stopped making funnels. They bought them in. The chief naval architect at the time, a friend of mine and a fellow Scot, told me it was time he was out of it with a lot of the things going on. He took early retirement.

The EEC didn't help either. They had all sorts of rules about how to tender and so on and to ensure all European countries were on an even footing. German and Italian yards appeared to get away with cheating but British yards were either too honest or too naive to cheat.

'Centres of Excellence' and similar phrases have always made me shudder. It's only jargon. I think all the shipyards involved in the current goings-on are all very capable and very skilled. I'm glad the Clyde is coming out of this relatively well but do feel for the other yards. Belfast will probably never recover fully from the demise of Harland & Wolff.