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Hillsborough Disaster Verdict


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One tunnel or three, it's irrelevant when you are herded to one.

I did a college project on Health & Safety many years back and Hillsborough was the chosen subject. The tunnel set up was like a pitchfork; there was one main tunnel then, further down the passage, there was one off to each side. So as you'd come in from the turnstiles you would be contained in the central section which, by a certain point, would have had fans backed up beyond the other two entrances. Therefore creating one tunnel full of people at the main entrance.

Yes, there would have been a means of escape for some but if you'd gone straight ahead, realised the situation, decided to turn back & go into an adjacent pathway you wouldn't be able to as a load of others would have come in at your back.

Either way, this is smoke and mirrors to the main issue, namely that the match commander admitted his folly and his responsibility.

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Guest TPAFKATS

I did a college project on Health & Safety many years back and Hillsborough was the chosen subject. The tunnel set up was like a pitchfork; there was one main tunnel then, further down the passage, there was one off to each side. So as you'd come in from the turnstiles you would be contained in the central section which, by a certain point, would have had fans backed up beyond the other two entrances. Therefore creating one tunnel full of people at the main entrance.

Yes, there would have been a means of escape for some but if you'd gone straight ahead, realised the situation, decided to turn back & go into an adjacent pathway you wouldn't be able to as a load of others would have come in at your back.

Either way, this is smoke and mirrors to the main issue, namely that the match commander admitted his folly and his responsibility.

Based on our pre season visit last year, I still find it a horrible set up from the road to the front of the stand. There's still so much of the design that looks the same.
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Yes there were three tunnels. However the impact of opening exit Gate C led straight towards the central tunnel. Central tunnel to pens 3 & 4 should have been closed before Gate C was opened.

The natural movement of a crowd entering gate C was directly towards the central tunnel.

Many of these fans would have been attending Hillsborough for the first time and would not have been aware of the right and left pens. You can see how difficult it would have been for fans to know how to get to pens 1&2 and especially pens 6&7 from gate C.

Answer this honestly. Which tunnel would you have most likely ended up in entering that stadium either through the turnstyles or Gate C.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/media/VID0001.html

Its clear from that footage that it is difficult enough to clearly see the signposts for the end pens.

Replicate that into being caught up in a human wave entering that exit gate and it would have been nigh on impossible to reach those pens and instead be almost catapulted into the tunnel. In fact, if you read some of the witness statements in Phil Scraton's book some spoke of almost being swept off their feet towards the tunnel area. And what didn't help matters was the design of the tunnel was a 1:4 gradient leading to people losing their feet in the ensuing chaos.

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The fence went from the main stand building all the way across the car park, and in the middle of the fence was a gate probably no more than 15' - 20' wide. The crush at the bottleneck was ridiculous. Thousands of Scottish fans trying to get from the West terrace to Kings Park, and thousands trying to go the other way. I was fortunate, as the crush got worse and I started to struggle to breathe an adult - whom I didn't know - pulled me up onto his shoulders. As far as I know no-one died that night, but I saw several falling and being trampled on. It was scary.

So why didn't you just turn back and find another way? That's what you said the Liverpool fans should have done. When you get into a crowd situation of that sort, it's nigh on impossible to 'decide' where to go, or how fast to proceed. The crowd carries you on. Liverpool fans may well have wanted to turn around, but couldn't.

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Am I wrong to buy The Sun ( Monday, Wednesday, Friday & Saturday ) to read the excellent Columns by Bill Leckie, Tam Cowan & Ally Ross ?

What have they got to do with Liverpool ?

Tuesday & Friday also for the Daily Mail, just for Littlejohn's superb Column.

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Am I wrong to buy The Sun ( Monday, Wednesday, Friday & Saturday ) to read the excellent Columns by Bill Leckie, Tam Cowan & Ally Ross ?

What have they got to do with Liverpool ?

Tuesday & Friday also for the Daily Mail, just for Littlejohn's superb Column.

Must try harder....

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So why didn't you just turn back and find another way? That's what you said the Liverpool fans should have done. When you get into a crowd situation of that sort, it's nigh on impossible to 'decide' where to go, or how fast to proceed. The crowd carries you on. Liverpool fans may well have wanted to turn around, but couldn't.

Stephanie Jones says she walked from the gate at normal pace to the tunnel. She said she didn't look up and went down the tunnel. She wasn't swept away until in the pen.

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This "point scoring" about tunnels, etc is really quite sickening.

There were several factors that contributed to this disaster, both human and design.

The real disgusting issue, for me, is what happened after.

The quite unbelievable attempts to cover issues up, when in the circumstances lots of people made errors, probably quite understandable.

What possessed The Sun to print headlines that at worse, poured oil on an already volatile situation.

The time to get to the decision given a few days ago is shocking and will forever be a dark event for this country.

A tragedy that has, somehow, been made worse by the actions of many, many people, that's a real tragedy.

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This "point scoring" about tunnels, etc is really quite sickening.

There were several factors that contributed to this disaster, both human and design.

The real disgusting issue, for me, is what happened after.

The quite unbelievable attempts to cover issues up, when in the circumstances lots of people made errors, probably quite understandable.

What possessed The Sun to print headlines that at worse, poured oil on an already volatile situation.

The time to get to the decision given a few days ago is shocking and will forever be a dark event for this country.

A tragedy that has, somehow, been made worse by the actions of many, many people, that's a real tragedy.

It's not point scoring.

Look. I totally agree that the cover up was a disgrace. I've already stated this and charges should be brought for those who attempted to pervert the course of justice. Apart from anything else their lies, their cover up could have prevented experts from finding the cause and fixing the problems to make football stadia far safer.

Where I find the inquest verdict questionable is that I don't see how ALL fans can be exonerated. Let's say for a minute that Oaksoft and others are right and it was impossible for fans coming through the open gate to choose a tunnel or to back up when they saw it was full. Wouldn't that fly in the face of the inquest verdict that fan behaviour outside the turnstile wasn't a contributory factor? Surely rushing and pushing in has to be a principal cause if that was the case.

The evidence suggest otherwise though. Stephanie Jones is clear in her testimony. She wasn't pushed or rushed down any tunnel. Her problem started in the pen. CCTV footage shows that before the tunnel there were people standing waiting....presumably to be reunited with friends or family before choosing a tunnel.

Its obvious now that the middle tunnel should have been closed but it clearly wasn't obvious then to the Liverpool fans who kept on coming in exacerbating the problem.

Fortunately we do seem to have learned a lesson. Stadia today are much safer places. Hillsborough would never have happened had the stadium been all seated. I'd hope the outcome from this inquest isn't the witch hunt we're seeing today...rather I'd like to see it serve as a timely and poinant reminder that we should never rip out seats to allow fans to stand.

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The police chiefs were lying to those who they could influence about the disaster as it was taking place right in front of them while some people were actually still fighting for their lives.

IIRC FA Chief Kelly and the BBC were told around 330pm that the gates had been forced. The Sun was fed similar information and did their typical brash reporting around these lies. It has always been a disgusting excuse for journalism and every football supporter should boycot it regardless of what offers of free TOFFS fitba shirts they may advertise.

Instead of lying to cover their own arses the police chiefs should have been declaring a major incident and leading their officers in trying to help more people. IIRC there were around 41 people who with the right assistance and medical help could possibly have been saved.

How could Duckenfield lie for so many years about what actually happened and not face criminal conviction?

How could so many police witness statements be doctored to suit the police chiefs agenda and those responsible not face criminal prosecution?

Those families have gone through hell for so long. They will never forget and I reckon most will never forgive the police and emergency services for what happened that day and in the immediate aftermath when so many innocent lives were lost. The lies and cover up which lasted for decades and involved so many has got to be one of the most shameful episodes in recent memory.

Yep. I don't think it was Kelly but that certainly is part of Motsons commentary around 3.20pm and the FA observer said in subsequent interviews that it had been reported to him there had been a break in through the exit gate by fans who did not have tickets.

The cover up was a disgrace but unlawful killing? Not for me. I think Duckenfield decision making was flawed but he reacted to a number of incidents around the approach to the stadium dealing with the hand he was dealt. He should be charged for his lies....not for his actions as they were happening.

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Yep. I don't think it was Kelly but that certainly is part of Motsons commentary around 3.20pm and the FA observer said in subsequent interviews that it had been reported to him there had been a break in through the exit gate by fans who did not have tickets.

The cover up was a disgrace but unlawful killing? Not for me. I think Duckenfield decision making was flawed but he reacted to a number of incidents around the approach to the stadium dealing with the hand he was dealt. He should be charged for his lies....not for his actions as they were happening.

If this wasn't unlawful killing why were the police covering things up? They were well aware that if the truth came out this would be the result.

The only people covering the truth were the police, not the fans but the police.

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Complete and utter drivel - even by your pathetic standards. In Kenny Dalglish's book In My Liverpool Home, Grobbelaar testified at the first enquiry that he witnessed the Liverpool fans screaming for help and asked the police on two separate occasions to 'open the bloody gate'. Dalglish then went on to say that Grobbelaar was affected more than most by what he witnessed behind his goal. Hardly the actions of a man telling his own fans to behave!

Dear God, you make Bernard Ingham and McKenzie almost look fair minded in comparison!

Dickson is the Donald Trump of Lanarkshire. He makes up anything old shite to support his pish when usually a little investigation disproves his 'evidence'. Why anyone on this site takes him seriously or even interacts with him is beyond me. Lies and deceit abound which I usually ignore as life is too short to get involved with his egotistical ramblings but in this case he has gone beyond the bounds of decency. If everyone ignores him hopefully he will go away.

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