The Politics Thread

[oaksoft]

47 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said:

Where was it in their manifesto?

Did Nicola Sturgeon not promise to serve all Scots of all political persuasions?

Are a million of them now irrelevant?

Of course they are not irrelevant.

They will be allowed to answer the same question which will be put to the other 3 million voters.

In the course of indyref2 they will be free to vote for the losing side happy in the kowledge that this is how democracy works and they've taken a full and active role in it.

Or do you believe the 1 million deserve special treatment?

[ford prefect]

Got to love the deluded unionists. Only believe in democracy when it suits their end. Majority vote to stay in the UK they're happy at the settled democratic will. But Scotland being dragged out of Europe against its will. You have to respect the minority. Muppets lol

[BuddieinEK]

Of course they are not irrelevant.

They will be allowed to answer the same question which will be put to the other 3 million voters.

In the course of indyref2 they will be free to vote for the losing side happy in the kowledge that this is how democracy works and they've taken a full and active role in it.

Or do you believe the 1 million deserve special treatment?

In indy ref once in a generation the majority of Scots elected to remain in the UK.

In the EU Referendum the majority of the UK elected to leave the EU.

I have typed that very slowly in the hope that you can keep up and understand a very simple democratic process.

It really is not hard to understand if you are willing to try!

[E=Mc2]

If Scotland had any sense it should wait say to see how the UK looks in perhaps 5 years time and then make a decision.

Only Scotland are in this unique position. London cannot vote themselves to become independent and consider joining the EU.

Will the SNP wait to see which economy offers the better option or will the SNP choose a time that is more favourable to winning independence?

If the SNP plump for the latter rather than the former then it confirms to me that the SNP politicians are cynical like their political rivals.

I would admire them more, and vote for them, if they took their time and did what was best for the Scottish economy.

 

 

 

    

 

 

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Once in a generation was the quote I think. Same thing

 

No, it really isn't. Not even in Shettleston.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

If Scotland had any sense it should wait say to see how the UK looks in perhaps 5 years time and then make a decision.

Only Scotland are in this unique position. London cannot vote themselves to become independent and consider joining the EU.

Will the SNP wait to see which economy offers the better option or will the SNP choose a time that is more favourable to winning independence?

If the SNP plump for the latter rather than the former then it confirms to me that the SNP politicians are cynical like their political rivals.

I would admire them more, and vote for them, if they took their time and did what was best for the Scottish economy.

 

 

 

    

 

 

You dont have to vote for them to be in favour of independence ;-)

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Errrrrr no... It was UK citizens resident in England... not "the English".

Scotland by a majority elected to remain in the UK.

This was not a Scottish vote but a U.K. one to which we willingly and democratically signed up.

Do you mean we willingly and democratically signed up by voting no in Sept 14 after being repeated warned that we would be thrown out of the EU if we voted yes?

Hmmm

[salmonbuddie]

Where was it in their manifesto?

Did Nicola Sturgeon not promise to serve all Scots of all political persuasions?

Are a million of them now irrelevant?

The section headed "Scotland's future"

http://www.snp.org/the_snp_2016_manifesto_explained

"...if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will."

Black and white for all to see.

[BuddieinEK]

The section headed "Scotland's future"

http://www.snp.org/the_snp_2016_manifesto_explained

"...if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will."

Black and white for all to see.

Call me cynical but that was always part of the plan!

Pro EU was always a means to an end... The raison d'être of the Party... To split the UK.

Clever and dangerous.

[zurich_allan]

A one off return to the political discussion for just this one post to explain my own stance in light of the pages of discussion in this thread. Again, just my own personal opinion.

What did I vote in the 2014 referendum? I voted no.

Do I regret that? No I don't, because that was the only option at that time to guarantee EU Membership at that moment in time. That and, also in my opinion, the white paper was one of the most amateur documents I've ever seen for such an important and life-changing decision.

To repeat - the option I chose at that time was to remain part of both the UK and EU.

That is no longer an option. It is obtuse to infer that the political climate is the same now, 2 years on. In the general election, the majority of Scotland rejected the Conservatives and the concept of the EU referendum that went along with them (it WAS part of their manifesto, so Scotland directly rejected it). Regardless, we were forced (democracy?) into having to make that choice. Scotland rejected that choice, demonstrating for the second major election in a row how fundamentally different the political ideals of those north and south of the border have become. I don't see why this is such an emotive issue, it's simply factual. All one has to do is look at the election results map for both elections to see how vastly different the ideals are. Arguably, the Union in just a short 21 months or so has become untenable, or at least requires a radical rethink more than the current constitutional arrangement.

You see, here's the thing: I'm not and never have been an entrenched voter, nor a pedant. I'm a realist who is completely open to critically considering all options open to me at any given time, recognising that political climate indisputably DOES change. I don't change on a whim, on a populist swing, or for any other reason than I've weighed up the pro's and con's of the issues at that time in depth, then decided accordingly.

So that brings us back to now. The option of staying in the UK and the EU no longer exists. So I have to decide what I think is more important here. In my opinion that would NOW (not previously) be to leave the UK if that becomes an option, and negotiate a deal ideally for full EU Membership, or for the best bilateral agreement package possible. I believe that the economy in the UK / England without a proper EU agreement (which I now believe will be difficult in a number of areas for a variety of reasons) will be in a very, very bad state of affairs for a long time. However, I would still like to see a 'white paper' put forward by the independence movement that stands up to full scrutiny more than the last one to fully cement my vote.

So in short, I do not, nor have I ever voted SNP. I would likely now vote for independence as I don't now see this as a party political issue, which in my opinion it still was to an extent in 2014. Upon any potential independence I don't know as yet who I would vote for as I do not (nor does anybody) know what parties or candidates would stand.

I see the circumstances as being way beyond materially different now in comparison to what they were just 2 years ago; certainly in a constitutional sense that is simply beyond argument. I see it as right and proper that the question is put back to the Scottish public. Should that result in independence? Fine, I would be happy that moving forward, EU Membership is a target to work toward. Should the Union be retained? Also fine, as then the will of the Scottish people has then been asserted under the new constitution arrangement, and it can be put to bed for decades to come.

No emotion from me, just my own cold, hard analysis and my own opinion. I've been as complete as possible as it will be my only post on the matter.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

A one off return to the political discussion for just this one post to explain my own stance in light of the pages of discussion in this thread. Again, just my own personal opinion.

What did I vote in the 2014 referendum? I voted no.

Do I regret that? No I don't, because that was the only option at that time to guarantee EU Membership at that moment in time. That and, also in my opinion, the white paper was one of the most amateur documents I've ever seen for such an important and life-changing decision.

To repeat - the option I chose at that time was to remain part of both the UK and EU.

That is no longer an option. It is obtuse to infer that the political climate is the same now, 2 years on. In the general election, the majority of Scotland rejected the Conservatives and the concept of the EU referendum that went along with them (it WAS part of their manifesto, so Scotland directly rejected it). Regardless, we were forced (democracy?) into having to make that choice. Scotland rejected that choice, demonstrating for the second major election in a row how fundamentally different the political ideals of those north and south of the border have become. I don't see why this is such an emotive issue, it's simply factual. All one has to do is look at the election results map for both elections to see how vastly different the ideals are. Arguably, the Union in just a short 21 months or so has become untenable, or at least requires a radical rethink more than the current constitutional arrangement.

You see, here's the thing: I'm not and never have been an entrenched voter, nor a pedant. I'm a realist who is completely open to critically considering all options open to me at any given time, recognising that political climate indisputably DOES change. I don't change on a whim, on a populist swing, or for any other reason than I've weighed up the pro's and con's of the issues at that time in depth, then decided accordingly.

So that brings us back to now. The option of staying in the UK and the EU no longer exists. So I have to decide what I think is more important here. In my opinion that would NOW (not previously) be to leave the UK if that becomes an option, and negotiate a deal ideally for full EU Membership, or for the best bilateral agreement package possible. I believe that the economy in the UK / England without a proper EU agreement (which I now believe will be difficult in a number of areas for a variety of reasons) will be in a very, very bad state of affairs for a long time. However, I would still like to see a 'white paper' put forward by the independence movement that stands up to full scrutiny more than the last one to fully cement my vote.

So in short, I do not, nor have I ever voted SNP. I would likely now vote for independence as I don't now see this as a party political issue, which in my opinion it still was to an extent in 2014. Upon any potential independence I don't know as yet who I would vote for as I do not (nor does anybody) know what parties or candidates would stand.

I see the circumstances as being way beyond materially different now in comparison to what they were just 2 years ago; certainly in a constitutional sense that is simply beyond argument. I see it as right and proper that the question is put back to the Scottish public. Should that result in independence? Fine, I would be happy that moving forward, EU Membership is a target to work toward. Should the Union be retained? Also fine, as then the will of the Scottish people has then been asserted under the new constitution arrangement, and it can be put to bed for decades to come.

No emotion from me, just my own cold, hard analysis and my own opinion. I've been as complete as possible as it will be my only post on the matter.

A similar voting view being expressed by a few pro EU no voters across social media tonight.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Was speaking to my daughter she told me her friends who voted No would now vote YES to get back into Europe and that is around 25 wow ! I'm surprised at that.

[saintnextlifetime]

9 hours ago, strummer said:

Independence is coming..its only a matter of when..

Yes I would agree with that but it would only be right if it were independence based on the Norwegian model.

 

 

There can be no kidding the next time . I fail to understand why Sturgeon has a fascination with Europe , an organisation which has stifled our trade and monumentally f**ked our fishing industry. .

[salmonbuddie]

Yes I would agree with that but it would only be right if it were independence based on the Norwegian model.

 

 

There can be no kidding the next time . I fail to understand why Sturgeon has a fascination with Europe , an organisation which has stifled our trade and monumentally f**ked our fishing industry. .

That would be Westminster to blame for trading Scottish fishing waters off against something not benefitting Scotland, not Europe, snlt, time for some hard bargaining.

[saintnextlifetime]

2 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:

That would be Westminster to blame for trading Scottish fishing waters off against something not benefitting Scotland, not Europe, snlt, time for some hard bargaining.

I believe that Westminster was told what the quotas would be and over a period of time , they systematically destroyed the British fishing industry , not just the Scottish one . .

 

Europe IS NOT a Democracy , it is run by a commission in favour of financiers , bankers and big continental industrialists . It was set up to be a trading Club(the Club of Rome) and that is what it still is , designed to take the mandate away from ordinary people . You can't vote out the Commission. .

[Kendo]

8 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

 

[Kendo]

4 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

I believe that Westminster was told what the quotas would be and over a period of time , they systematically destroyed the British fishing industry , not just the Scottish one . .

 

Europe IS NOT a Democracy , it is run by a commission in favour of financiers , bankers and big continental industrialists . It was set up to be a trading Club(the Club of Rome) and that is what it still is , designed to take the mandate away from ordinary people . You can't vote out the Commission. .

 

So how does Scotland vote out the Tories?

[saintnextlifetime]

1 minute ago, Kendo said:

 

So how does Scotland vote out the Tories?

Sorry , what is your point , caller. .

[ford prefect]

Moaning about the eu while tugging the westminster forelock and hoping they throw us a bone.. Ffs deluded doesn't begin to cover it

[Kendo]

13 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:

 

 

18 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

Yes I would agree with that but it would only be right if it were independence based on the Norwegian model.

 

 

There can be no kidding the next time . I fail to understand why Sturgeon has a fascination with Europe , an organisation which has stifled our trade and monumentally f**ked our fishing industry. .

It's because more than 60% of Scotland voted to remain in the EU. The SNP are bound to represent the will of the Scottish people.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Yes I would agree with that but it would only be right if it were independence based on the Norwegian model.

 

 

There can be no kidding the next time . I fail to understand why Sturgeon has a fascination with Europe , an organisation which has stifled our trade and monumentally f**ked our fishing industry. .

Maybe she feels Scotland's fishing industry would be better represented by Scotland when it comes to negotiations?

[Kendo]

3 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

Sorry , what is your point , caller. .

Westminster isn't democratic.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Was speaking to my daughter she told me her friends who voted No would now vote YES to get back into Europe and that is around 25 wow ! I'm surprised at that.

Obviously don't know what age she is, however most peeps under 25 seem to have voted to stay. Main reason? Ability to have free movement to work in study in 27 other countries in Europe.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Wow, the record appears to have come out in support of a 2nd Indy Ref!

[saintnextlifetime]

5 minutes ago, Kendo said:

Westminster isn't democratic.

It is once every 5yrs . You can get rid of the Camerons of this world but you can't vote out an European Commissioner . It is designed to take away the mandate from the people and suck the lifeblood out of the economy . .