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Takeover to be completed next week


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Sorry that aint detail, that's just re-posting my quotes.

Your quotes are what I have to "back-up my two line review".

My two line review consisted of telling you to put your questions in the correct thread and stating your comments were ridiculous and over the top.

If you really think that mentioning statements such as "the darkest phase of the club" is not over exagerated and ridiculous then you're kidding yourself.

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Not at all. I have long been a supporter of freedom of expression and not just in these forums. As you will see from the subsequent posts the debate has fallen into another ah'm right and your wrang fest.

The reality is that somner9 is now posting how he feels about the CIC, which is very different from posting to undermine the CIC. somner9's post is no worse than expressing a feeling that Barron would be better at right back than DVZ.

somner9 is merely outlining why he doesn't fell that the CIC will be successful. Rather than attack him on point by point, which really doesn't help it would be more prudent for supporters of the CIC to start posting about why it will be a success. Getting drawn into a point by point argument doesn't help either viewpoint - as I parodied earlier in the week. :)

Instead of telling somner9 where he is wrong it would be better to produce an entirely new post outlining the benefits of the CIC. Time to step away form the negative bunfight and focus on the future - as I have been saying for some time. :)

So it IS cynicism. That's a shame. :(

You've been the thrower of 'negative buns' in every CiC thread there is - even starting your own threads in order to chuck even more about. It's been sad to witness. I don't know where your all-encompassing loathing of other Buds comes from. Nor the nastiness in your posts. You do know that Sid Vicious was acting a part to sell a 'character'. He wasn't real, you know.

I'm sure St Sid will be pleased to have noted that it 'appears' that the supras have stopped their efforts. St Sid slagged and mocked all attempts by those good Buddies to generate enthusiasm for the club. I thought that was the most un-Buddie-like attitude to take.

You even personally attack Big Fras, denigrating him and accusing him of undermining St Mirren when you know, we all know, that he's been a longer term, more proactive supporter and contributor to the club and its players than you have ever been or could be.

If you really want to focus on the future, perhaps try to be a bit more generous of spirit. Be more like a Buddie and less like not so long ago, when you were a Shellic supporter.

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So it IS cynicism. That's a shame. :(

You've been the thrower of 'negative buns' in every CiC thread there is - even starting your own threads in order to chuck even more about. It's been sad to witness. I don't know where your all-encompassing loathing of other Buds comes from. Nor the nastiness in your posts. You do know that Sid Vicious was acting a part to sell a 'character'. He wasn't real, you know.

I'm sure St Sid will be pleased to have noted that it 'appears' that the supras have stopped their efforts. St Sid slagged and mocked all attempts by those good Buddies to generate enthusiasm for the club. I thought that was the most un-Buddie-like attitude to take.

You even personally attack Big Fras, denigrating him and accusing him of undermining St Mirren when you know, we all know, that he's been a longer term, more proactive supporter and contributor to the club and its players than you have ever been or could be.

If you really want to focus on the future, perhaps try to be a bit more generous of spirit. Be more like a Buddie and less like not so long ago, when you were a Shellic supporter.

Another odd post. I helped keep the Q&A thread for (mostly) sane questions for 10,000hours. The rest was always going to denegrate into a bun fight - and it did, and it would have without me - I did add some levity to the threads as always.

I am a member of the SUPRA's. B) The split was to do with unacceptable behaviour within the group - a meeting was held to sort it out and they intended to go on. The element responsible for the unacceptable behaviour (their own rules - not mine), then decided to form their own group so they would not be limited by the rules they signed up to.

Have always viewed BigFras as a good poster and praised him for bringing Aber's story to life. It has been done to death, but his PM and subsequent attempts to undermine St Mirren's commercial operations are clearly out of character - you would do better to speak to him directly about that and provide some support rather than encourage misdeeds against the club and one member in particular who has certainly done more for the club than BigFras or any other supporter I know. Whether BigFras will be honest about it would be in question based on recent experiences.

I actually think that most people respect me choosing St Mirren over the bhigots - how in reality I only supported as a child. You do our support a disservice by repeatedly trying to use it against a fellow Saints support.

All that being said, you appear to be intent in taking this thread off topic - shame that.

When are you actually going to creep out of the closet and post your views on the CIC. :)

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Views on the CiC?

I have none. It's an intangible; as long as a piece of string; smoke and mirrors; what you want it to be or what you've always feared.

I did think of pledging money. Then I bought lottery tickets.

Even if I cared one way or another, I'm sure you'd twist a way to pillory that opinion and attach a smiley.:moony2

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I have a number of concerns still over the CIC, and they are mainly ones that cant be addressed without seeing the thing in action. Its a long post but appreciate any feedback.

1 Bureaucracy we are going to have 3 boards, SMFC Board, CIC Board, Exec Board. I understand the requirement of each but I also can see this becoming a very difficult set up to maintain without the CIC or SMFC becoming difficult to operate effectively. On this point I also think that its important that the elected SMFC board is allowed to run the club in the way they see fit i.e. the CIC board and indeed members cant expect to be consulted on every decision if the board arent running things to your liking dont re-elect them sort of idea.

2 Exec Board I completely understand the necessity of this board and agree with it in principle, but as its unelected it wouldnt be answerable to the supporters what if the exec board make a decision or veto a deal against the wishes of the support at large. I understand the premise is to only get involved in legal dealings etc but who determines what goes to the exec board and what doesnt if they have overall governance then whats to stop them making decisions on issues that they were not originally supposed to have a say on.

3 - Fan apathy SMiSA really struggled to make an impact because there were never more that about 120 members and only really 10 who actually were actively doing things if Saints fans get bored of the CIC or if the team gets relegated Im concerned the fan involvement might drop off to the point that the model becomes unsustainable.

4 Division of support The Saints fans are a great bunch for not getting on with each other Im concerned that the CIC members/Non Members will become a big division in our support and may lead to some people feeling isolated or worse, some fans feeling superior. This is something we all probably have to be careful of and ensure that any new regime is totally inclusive.

5 Inexperience - I like Richard and I like that hes come up with a lot of new ideas for the club to make money I like that he is driven and has belief that St Mirren can grow as a club, but I fear there is an element of naivety. The numbers that were discussed in the presentations seem reasonable enough, but there has also been talk of getting Old Firm fans to get Season tickets at St Mirren instead of with the OF, because well offer them more value, or because we will be their community club. By and large fans dont change their teams, we can convince a few Im sure, but were talking 10s not 100s. Football fans arent consumers its a business yes, but it doesnt really work the same way other ones do and Im not certain Richard appreciates that yet.

6 - Exit strategy if/when this happens I will sign up so dont take this point as me willing the thing to fail if/when it happens I will really be hoping it takes off and is a huge success, because this is my club and I want it to work. That said, I think there has to be a clearly defined exit strategy At what point is the scheme determined a failure? Would those involved, both Richard and his team, and the fans who have bought in be willing/brave enough to admit if it hadnt been successful and was time to call it a day? In such a scenario the club is put up for sale as the only asset of TTH to pay its debts, fair enough, but who decides on the suitability of potential buyers? Also on this Richard mentioned that he and Chris held the 100 or so shares in TTH is there a potential that the power would be taken out of the fans hands in this situation?

If/when this happens I will be 100% on board but we are all going to have to work hard to ensure the above points dont turn this project into a disaster.

Edited by BLF
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Agree with the last few posts. Te deal being signed will be a major milestone but it is really only the beginning of the whole project. There are some causes for concern but these are, for me, far outweighed by the massive possibilities this offers the club, the community and the supporters.

Once it is signed I hope the information and communication with the fans improves significantly, which I am sure it will once the necessary confidentiality restraints that have been in place up to now have been lifted.

Very true Div,

Furthermore if our team can keep up this fantastic form and the "feel good" factor remains for a while yet then that alone may add a few numbers.

The difference in demand for seats on our supporters bus is an indicator that St Mirren fans are re-energised by this!

Long may it continue!

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I have a number of concerns still over the CIC, and they are mainly ones that cant be addressed without seeing the thing in action. Its a long post but appreciate any feedback.

1 – Bureaucracy – we are going to have 3 boards, SMFC Board, CIC Board, Exec Board. I understand the requirement of each but I also can see this becoming a very difficult set up to maintain without the CIC or SMFC becoming difficult to operate effectively. On this point I also think that its important that the elected SMFC board is allowed to run the club in the way they see fit –i.e. the CIC board and indeed members cant expect to be consulted on every decision – if the board aren’t running things to your liking don’t re-elect them sort of idea.

2 – Exec Board – I completely understand the necessity of this board and agree with it in principle, but as its unelected it wouldn’t be answerable to the supporters – what if the exec board make a decision or veto a deal against the wishes of the support at large. I understand the premise is to only get involved in legal dealings etc – but who determines what goes to the exec board and what doesn’t – if they have overall governance then what’s to stop them making decisions on issues that they were not originally supposed to have a say on.

3 - Fan apathy – SMiSA really struggled to make an impact because there were never more that about 120 members and only really 10 who actually were actively doing things – if Saints fans get bored of the CIC or if the team gets relegated I’m concerned the fan involvement might drop off to the point that the model becomes unsustainable.

4 – Division of support – The Saints fans are a great bunch for not getting on with each other – I’m concerned that the CIC members/Non Members will become a big division in our support and may lead to some people feeling isolated – or worse, some fans feeling superior. This is something we all probably have to be careful of and ensure that any new regime is totally inclusive.

5 – Inexperience - I like Richard and I like that he’s come up with a lot of new ideas for the club to make money – I like that he is driven and has belief that St Mirren can grow as a club, but I fear there is an element of naivety. The numbers that were discussed in the presentations seem reasonable enough, but there has also been talk of getting Old Firm fans to get Season tickets at St Mirren instead of with the OF, because we’ll offer them more value, or because we will be their community club. By and large fans don’t change their teams, we can convince a few I’m sure, but we’re talking 10s not 100s. Football fans aren’t consumers – it’s a business yes, but it doesn’t really work the same way other ones do – and I’m not certain Richard appreciates that yet.

6 - Exit strategy – if/when this happens I will sign up so don’t take this point as me willing the thing to fail – if/when it happens I will really be hoping it takes off and is a huge success, because this is my club and I want it to work. That said, I think there has to be a clearly defined exit strategy – At what point is the scheme determined a failure? Would those involved, both Richard and his team, and the fans who have bought in be willing/brave enough to admit if it hadn’t been successful and was time to call it a day? In such a scenario – the club is put up for sale as the only asset of TTH to pay its debts, fair enough, but who decides on the suitability of potential buyers? Also on this – Richard mentioned that he and Chris held the 100 or so shares in TTH is there a potential that the power would be taken out of the fans’ hands in this situation?

If/when this happens I will be 100% on board but we are all going to have to work hard to ensure the above points dont turn this project into a disaster.

Excellent post BLF. I think many of us share some of the concerns you express. I could pick up on a couple of points that I can answer positively; however I think that is counter productive at this point. Some frank posts about where we percieve the risks to be is going to be enormously useful in terms of ensuring that reduce the risk as far as possible. Hard work ahead for fans that care.

Green dot! :)

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Views on the CiC?

I have none. It's an intangible; as long as a piece of string; smoke and mirrors; what you want it to be or what you've always feared.

Even if I cared one way or another, I'm sure you'd twist a way to pillory that opinion and attach a smiley.:moony2

to paraphrase:-

feart

feart...and

.........feart :P

Just for fun it appears you are calling the CIC your God. :P

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I have a number of concerns still over the CIC, and they are mainly ones that cant be addressed without seeing the thing in action. Its a long post but appreciate any feedback.

1 – Bureaucracy – we are going to have 3 boards, SMFC Board, CIC Board, Exec Board. I understand the requirement of each but I also can see this becoming a very difficult set up to maintain without the CIC or SMFC becoming difficult to operate effectively. On this point I also think that its important that the elected SMFC board is allowed to run the club in the way they see fit –i.e. the CIC board and indeed members cant expect to be consulted on every decision – if the board aren’t running things to your liking don’t re-elect them sort of idea.

Agreed. It would be ridiculously clunky if they were to consult with the membership on every decision.

2 – Exec Board – I completely understand the necessity of this board and agree with it in principle, but as its unelected it wouldn’t be answerable to the supporters – what if the exec board make a decision or veto a deal against the wishes of the support at large. I understand the premise is to only get involved in legal dealings etc – but who determines what goes to the exec board and what doesn’t – if they have overall governance then what’s to stop them making decisions on issues that they were not originally supposed to have a say on.

My understanding was their principle function was to manage the funds of the CIC and that the football board would have to get expenditure signed off by the Executive if it exceeded their budget. I think it's sensible to have an authority that oversees the whole thing.

3 - Fan apathy – SMiSA really struggled to make an impact because there were never more that about 120 members and only really 10 who actually were actively doing things – if Saints fans get bored of the CIC or if the team gets relegated I’m concerned the fan involvement might drop off to the point that the model becomes unsustainable.

I don't think fan apathy is the biggest issue - more that the community and the corporate members don't feel they are getting value for money for their membership. Most of them will have very little interest in St Mirren FC and it's the area that I think is the most vulnerable. Fan apathy could easily be tackled by offering a benefit in return for their membership.

4 – Division of support – The Saints fans are a great bunch for not getting on with each other – I’m concerned that the CIC members/Non Members will become a big division in our support and may lead to some people feeling isolated – or worse, some fans feeling superior. This is something we all probably have to be careful of and ensure that any new regime is totally inclusive.

There is conflict in every boardroom and every committee. It's healthy. A bigger problem for me is that many St Mirren fans are clearly stupid and that they will be unable to see the bigger picture and won't see their place in the structure. The football club is going to be a trading arm of a Community Interest Company. They are not going to be the be all and end and the idea that it would be is frankly ridiculous. Its the equivalent of suggesting that the sole focus of the Carnegie Group over the last 20 years has been r*ngers FC or that Dermot Desmonds sole business interest is c*ltic.

5 – Inexperience - I like Richard and I like that he’s come up with a lot of new ideas for the club to make money – I like that he is driven and has belief that St Mirren can grow as a club, but I fear there is an element of naivety. The numbers that were discussed in the presentations seem reasonable enough, but there has also been talk of getting Old Firm fans to get Season tickets at St Mirren instead of with the OF, because we’ll offer them more value, or because we will be their community club. By and large fans don’t change their teams, we can convince a few I’m sure, but we’re talking 10s not 100s. Football fans aren’t consumers – it’s a business yes, but it doesn’t really work the same way other ones do – and I’m not certain Richard appreciates that yet.

In fairness most new football chairmen believe their club will attract fans from the Old Firm and I've never seen it happen in any great scale at any club. The best St Mirren could hope for is that they may occasionally attend St Mirren matches as a neutral. However that's only going to happen if they enjoy the experience and St Mirren fans have not been the most tolerant of having Old Firm fans in amongst them.

6 - Exit strategy – if/when this happens I will sign up so don’t take this point as me willing the thing to fail – if/when it happens I will really be hoping it takes off and is a huge success, because this is my club and I want it to work. That said, I think there has to be a clearly defined exit strategy – At what point is the scheme determined a failure? Would those involved, both Richard and his team, and the fans who have bought in be willing/brave enough to admit if it hadn’t been successful and was time to call it a day? In such a scenario – the club is put up for sale as the only asset of TTH to pay its debts, fair enough, but who decides on the suitability of potential buyers? Also on this – Richard mentioned that he and Chris held the 100 or so shares in TTH is there a potential that the power would be taken out of the fans’ hands in this situation?

If/when this happens I will be 100% on board but we are all going to have to work hard to ensure the above points dont turn this project into a disaster.

Provided they can keep business and community members happy I don't see this failing. Instead I think 10000hours will expand to run other projects right across Scotland.

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It has been done to death, but his PM and subsequent attempts to undermine St Mirren's commercial operations are clearly out of character - you would do better to speak to him directly about that and provide some support rather than encourage misdeeds against the club and one member in particular who has certainly done more for the club than BigFras or any other supporter I know. Whether BigFras will be honest about it would be in question based on recent experiences.

Sid - there are two sides to every story, and If I was to go public with the PM not only would I put 2 friends of mine in legal situation that they don't wish to pursue, I would also in effect put your beloved BoD member in the same position. I'm not prepared to do that, so just leave it.

Questioning my honesty ? Watch the legals old bhoy.

I would be more concerned as to why back in June your home address was e-mailed to me by another forum user. I must stress that I'd not asked for it - I'm happily married. :)

Not my scene, and of no concern to me, but its not hard to imagine that whoever you are upsetting to THAT degree, is possibly a bit loopy. I may have stayed sensible, you just don't know what kind of fruitcakes lurk on t'internet. You are noising up a lot of people on here Sid - don't go too far. It's only a game.

ETA Just want to get back on topic please.....

Edited by Big Fras
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Sid - there are two sides to every story, and If I was to go public with the PM not only would I put 2 friends of mine in legal situation that they don't wish to pursue, I would also in effect put your beloved BoD member in the same position. I'm not prepared to do that, so just leave it.

Questioning my honesty ? Watch the legals old bhoy.

I would be more concerned as to why back in June your home address was e-mailed to me by another forum user. I must stress that I'd not asked for it - I'm happily married. :)

Not my scene, and of no concern to me, but its not hard to imagine that whoever you are upsetting to THAT degree, is possibly a bit loopy. I may have stayed sensible, you just don't know what kind of fruitcakes lurk on t'internet. You are noising up a lot of people on here Sid - don't go too far. It's only a game.

ETA Just want to get back on topic please.....

Fras, you will find that sending a PM to a stranger via a public forum is just as public as if you had post it in the open forum. As for the thirdy party veiled threats - very poor show. Dunno what are thinking about of late. :)

If someone has threatened me in an email to you then you should forward me the details by PM and I will deal with it. :)

It's certainly just a game to me Fras. I take my kids to the games on a Saturday and post on here. That is my involvement with St Mirren. I am in no way precious about how I support the club and have no desire to undermine anyone that works for the club irrespective of my personal view of them.

At no point would my view on a game, a manager or who owns or doesn't own the club lead me to threaten violence. Would you care to point out the post that has warranted threatening behaviour? :rolleyes:

I offered to join you for a Blackburn Bolton derby in the past and that offer still stands. I think you need to get over your "reputation" and take a step back from all the politics of the club. You clearly cannae handle it. :wink:

As for my address - it is hardly a secret. I stay just down the road from the Windae Cleaner as has been posted on here many times not to mention me being on STV furfuxake. Where I sit in the stadium has been posted many times as has been the fact that I walk back to my in-laws just round the corner of the stadium.

Is this really where your head is now? Yul and the magnificent seven are ready to storm Hillview Road to silence an Internet alias that is supportive of the CIC. :lol:

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It would only have taken one supporter going to the press and saying St Mirren held my four year old hostage while I was sent to sort out the season ticket card that I'd paid for that didn't work and the club would have been a complete laughing stock.

Any individual who described the situation as you just did would be classed as a laughing stock.

It was an unacceptable situation,which the club appears to have acted upon, but to describe it as such is the action of a complete fúckwit.

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Some of the stuff on this thread makes me despair about the forum.

At a time when the team is performing well on the park, and the club is on the verge of a historic and ground breaking takeover it's quite sad to see some of the stuff that has been posted on this thread. :(

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You forgot to mention highly risky.:wink:

Having collected my dummy from the pram I am delighted that the cic is finaly going ahead. I did not expect the revoloution on the park this season to be as great as it is now having witnessed the last 3 games. The signings of Thompson,Teale and Hasselbank gave us great heart but the football produced has been sublime. The end game for us has to be more people attending games and a bigger player buget to keep our momentum going. I have no doubts the cic is the only way we can acheive this and the first priority must be to get Danny Lennon on a 5 year contract. This can not only be a very special year but a year that makes us a genuine force in football for ever.

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Some of the stuff on this thread makes me despair about the forum.

At a time when the team is performing well on the park, and the club is on the verge of a historic and ground breaking takeover it's quite sad to see some of the stuff that has been posted on this thread. :(

Div, I've noticed in a few threads the threats of violence coming from posters. I know its difficult to deal with - censorship etc., but maybe the Mods have to take a closer look at it and police it.

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There's always going to be a bit of consternation when such an important decision about the club's future is being made. I reckon the debate has been fairly tame in comparison to other clubs in similar positions. Blackburn is a good example. They have their challenges with Venky's, which is causing all sorts of splits within the support. Their Internet forums are filled with it. At the friendly yesterday there was umpteen squabbles between groups of supporters with the police having to get involved at one point. A lot of it is down to sphere of influence - the more vocal groups tend to think in packs and very quickly radicalise opinion to the point were it is displayed agressively in the stands.

The problem for the anti-CIC crusade is that it does not have any breadth of support beyond its small sphere of negative influence. The reason being that it has failed to make any salient case for its position. Instead we have seen one malicious rumour after another fail to materialise. This failure to prove its credentials to the wider support has left the small group isolated within its own sphere of influence and rendered impotent - and that always raises the anger levels as Bluto can confirm when his dodgy viagra order got caught at customs. It doesn't make them bad supporters - it just makes them wrong in their position on the CIC in what is an important time for the club.

Hopefully all concerned can move on and not let their wrongness take over their love of St Mirren. :)

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There's always going to be a bit of consternation when such an important decision about the club's future is being made. I reckon the debate has been.... yadda yadda yadda....

The problem for the CIC crusade is that there is little sign of any breadth of support beyond its small sphere of baleful influence, despite it being the only game in town. The reason being that it has failed to make any salient case for its adoption. Instead we have seen one slander after another. This failure to prove its credentials to the wider support has left the small CIC group isolated within its own sphere of influence and rendered impotent. It doesn't make them bad supporters - it just makes them boring with regard to the club.

And August is marching on with still no sign of resolution...

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The problem for the CIC crusade is that there is little sign of any breadth of support beyond its small sphere of baleful influence, despite it being the only game in town. The reason being that it has failed to make any salient case for its adoption. Instead we have seen one slander after another. This failure to prove its credentials to the wider support has left the small CIC group isolated within its own sphere of influence and rendered impotent. It doesn't make them bad supporters - it just makes them boring with regard to the club.

And August is marching on with still no sign of resolution...

Fairly typical of the conflicting and negative posts in relation to the CIC. Shameful stuff. The breadth of support for the CIC has not just been proven - it blew the target set by independent bodies right out of the water - independent bodies prepared to back St Mirren supporters with their hard cash. The St Mirren community has made it clear that it wants to take control of the club and the funding bodies have said yes. This is the stuff of dreams and legend and we are privileged to see it happening in our lifetimes. A great time to be a Buddie. Only a miscreant of the highest order could find misery in the success of the CIC process. B)

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