The Day Fan Ownership Died!

[David Mc]

Looking at the information on 10000Hours website the documentation at the downloads section is way out of date in terms of the recent announcements and change in model.

This document also carries “endorsement logos” from SMiSA and Supporters Direct. Is this still valid given SMiSA's recent announcement?

http://www.10000hours.org/downloads

The FAQ section has been recently reset and all the previous information has disappeared – some is probably redundant with the change in delivery model - however if someone is visiting the site for the first time there is not a great deal of information to make a decision on.

http://www.10000hours.org/faq

At what stage will the Social Funders be announced – given that the bid is in the final stages individuals committing to this need understand who these organisations. Transparency is key.

I emailed these concerns to [email protected] and received a response that the downloads are a record of events in December (which is accurate, but does not reflect recent changes), the social funders is being approached to see if they can go public.

I'd post this on the 10000Hours forum, but it does not appear to be used very often. The last annoucement on the General Discussion on that site was 1 month ago. The only recent post in the last week was within the last hour from someone advertising baby carriers!

http://www.10000hour...9-ergo-baby#179

Communication is key - I personally don't use Twitter or Facebook and I did not receive any email from 10000Hours announcing the recent news.

It's only through B&WA that I was made aware of this recent announcement.

It makes you wonder how many Saints fans, shareholders and sponsors are unaware of this press release and the deadline set by the consortium and 10000Hours bid team.

I agree wholeheartedly. What would also be very necessary and helpful is a simple document (online and hardcopy) which shows the anticipated cashflow in each of the years until the CIC clears the loan debt. Let's have everything in simple terms we can all understand. I can't really believe that it has taken till this late in the stage to ask the social funders if they are okay to go public.

Communication overall is very poor and given the model of the involvement of so many fan 'investors' on an ongoing basis it's fundamental that is done well IMO. A quick look here shows the fairly random is hindering the proposal and there's not much time to sort it out. One-to-one chats or occasional meetings don't work for a sizeable number of fans I would think. It seems it is no one's job to make sure those with an interest out there are fully informed. It's almost a cliche that you need to provide the right information, at the right time to people by their preferred method of communication. But it's what successful organisations do.

I am largely for a CIC. But I must admit it's hard to flow all the changes that have taken place if there is isn't a single definitive, easy to understand document `with cashflow projections, names of social funders and the decision making processes outlined (an organisational chart?) to dissect by this time. How can anyone commit with confidence without this? Not carping just requesting a more coherent approach to make a decision with as much evidence as I can.

[Guest somner9]

Several good buds making valid points. It's a hideous comparison but the line trotted out that 'you can't know who the funders are until the deal is done' is very reminiscent of the bawbaggery at play over at castle greyskull!

Transparency, empowerment, just fecking knowing the projections!

unless 10000 hours have a cunning plan to squeeze 634 individual members meetings and 30 odd 87 club ones in before June 15th

[div]

I agree wholeheartedly. What would also be very necessary and helpful is a simple document (online and hardcopy) which shows the anticipated cashflow in each of the years until the CIC clears the loan debt. Let's have everything in simple terms we can all understand. I can't really believe that it has taken till this late in the stage to ask the social funders if they are okay to go public.

Communication overall is very poor and given the model of the involvement of so many fan 'investors' on an ongoing basis it's fundamental that is done well IMO. A quick look here shows the fairly random is hindering the proposal and there's not much time to sort it out. One-to-one chats or occasional meetings don't work for a sizeable number of fans I would think. It seems it is no one's job to make sure those with an interest out there are fully informed. It's almost a cliche that you need to provide the right information, at the right time to people by their preferred method of communication. But it's what successful organisations do.

I am largely for a CIC. But I must admit it's hard to flow all the changes that have taken place if there is isn't a single definitive, easy to understand document `with cashflow projections, names of social funders and the decision making processes outlined (an organisational chart?) to dissect by this time. How can anyone commit with confidence without this? Not carping just requesting a more coherent approach to make a decision with as much evidence as I can.

Don't disagree with any of that. Good post.

[div]

TsuMirren asked me for a copy of the draft constitution. It was previously available on the 10000 Hours download page according to the email I was sent by 10000 Hours info email alias back on the 30th March. Is there a new link available to download the document?

Yip, my apologies this was my fault, got missed in the site re-org on Monday night.

Back online now to download at http://www.10000hours.org/downloads

[div]

There are emails due to go out tomorrow and there will be a further public meeting.

Mistakes have been made up to now with regard communication, no doubt about that. It's an area 10000Hours needs to improve greatly on.

What can be done between now and 15th June to improve the communication flow will hopefully be done. We are all St.Mirren supporters who hopefully all want what is best for the football club both now and in the longer term.

Main elements of confusion and concern appear to be (correct me if I have missed anything);

How the money is structured and how and when it is paid back ?

What happens if it can't be paid back at any point ?

Who else is on the 5 man interim board ?

How does the voting structure work ?

How to the CIC board, Non-Exec board and Football club board interact and what are the roles and responsibilites within them

An organisation chart showing how the whole setup will look

How will a "rank and file" individual membership fan vote, and on what will they be voting - CIC or St.Mirren motions ?

I am sure there are many more but reading through this these seem to be the main issues ?

[St. Sid]

Yip, my apologies this was my fault, got missed in the site re-org on Monday night.

Back online now to download at http://www.10000hours.org/downloads

Cheers Div....the less conspiracy theories the better at the moment.

Everyone that cares about St Mirren should put aside some time to print this document and the acoompanying notes and make sure that they understand the implications of each point. If you have not done that then you should not be commiting one penny to the CIC. I requested at the time that a plain engerlish document was drafted to accompany the document as it is a right old fashioned f'k'n turgal bollexicon of jibber jabber.

There are some pretty big obvious concerns I have straight off the bat with the constitution. However, there is also a helluva lot of ambiguity in other areas. Some clauses are wide open for abuse IMHO and need to be locked down far more tightly.

There has been hee-haw interaction with fans on the constitution as far as I am aware. At this stage of the game I personally am not comfortable with that. We need to be absolutely certain of what we are getting as the constitution as it stands is miles away from some of the marketing docs we have had to date.

I had always assumed wrongly that people like SMiSA, or the various individuals that have worked on certain stuff would have been involved in working up the detail like this. That is now clearly not the case. In my opinion that does not bode well for the "fan governance" being pitched to us.

Rather than being part of this process we are having it sold to us through marketing techniques. This is not a good place to start. The idea of the CIC is to move supporters from being consumers sold to - to being active partners in the running of the club. The current behaviours do not reflect any genuine intention of delivering that.

If 10000 Hours are serious about fan empowerment then lets start by empowering us in the current process.

[Stuart Dickson]

Div, I want to know how the Community Groups fit in to all of this as well. Sid's right in that they are a critical element of the plan since the SROI is such an important part of the capital repayment. However where the initial proposal was pretty clear on where they came into the CIC I think this has become diluted with each change, and my one concern is that it perhaps has gone back to the kind of situation where the Community element will again just be about ticking boxes to make sure the club grabs funding that would be better used at grass roots level by someone with a real passion for what they are doing.

My thoughts on yesterdays announcement are generally neutral. Unlike some on here I don't think it changes much. The one obvious change is that 10000hours members would now need to carry a 75% majority for the full 52% block vote to be used. I can live with that. Gordon Scott's involvement basically offsets some of the debt in the project, and because it's a sale of existing shares from the 48% block I don't really think it makes much difference.

I'd agree with the calls led by Sid for much more information now though and real clarity and honesty. Everyone now needs to know exactly how this will work. Hopefully it's straightforward, balanced and fair because then it would be hard to argue with it.

[St. Sid]

There are emails due to go out tomorrow and there will be a further public meeting.

Mistakes have been made up to now with regard communication, no doubt about that. It's an area 10000Hours needs to improve greatly on.

What can be done between now and 15th June to improve the communication flow will hopefully be done. We are all St.Mirren supporters who hopefully all want what is best for the football club both now and in the longer term.

Main elements of confusion and concern appear to be (correct me if I have missed anything);

How the money is structured and how and when it is paid back ? Agreed - could we have this by document in advance please?

What happens if it can't be paid back at any point ? As above

Who else is on the 5 man interim board ? No - who has been involved in selecting the BoD and why fans were not consulted.

How does the voting structure work ? No - how would the fans like the voting structure to work - not 10000 Hours telling us how it will work.

How to the CIC board, Non-Exec board and Football club board interact and what are the roles and responsibilites within them. Again, this should be about how the fans would like the CIC BoD, and the SMFC BoD to work....the non-exec board will be SRTB and of limited interest to the majority of fans. Their package will be of interest and clarification of costs to the club would be useful.

An organisation chart showing how the whole setup will look - again what influence have the supposedly empowered fans had on this - do we not get a say in it?

How will a "rank and file" individual membership fan vote, and on what will they be voting - CIC or St.Mirren motions ? Isn't this for us to decide rather than 10000 Hours - if it is a decision for 10000 Hours then it is hardly empowerment...shouldn't the fans be involved in defining this as part of the constitution drafting process?

I am sure there are many more but reading through this these seem to be the main issues ?

The CIC needs to radically change its attitude towards the fans. This is not about sending out updates or responding to posts on the web site. This is about changing the attitude to fans from one of a group to sell shit to, to one of active partners in the "fan ownership" process.

[div]

I think part of the problem is that there has to be a general concensus that there is going to be a difference between the day one organisation and the one that will come to exist once the constitution has been finished and signed off.

There was always going to be an interim board to take us through the initial period. I can't see why "the fans" would need to be consulted about the make up of that board ?

In my view it should be a board that can take as smooth a handover as possible from the outgoing board, especially at this crucial time of the year. In fact I'd go further and say I hope that maybe Bryan and Stewart for example hang around on the "new" board until the AGM.

That would give us a few months to collectively create and agree the constitution of the new organisation and to allow people to put themselves forward for election etc..

The rules of the organisation will be shaped and fashioned by the members but it's unrealistic to expect that constitution to have been agreed for day one IMO.

In short, and I know this phrase has been used and ridiculed, but it is true;

10000Hours will be whatever it's members want it to be.

[div]

If there is to be another meeting it would be useful to know as early as possible. Last meeting I received an email inviting me 6 hours before it started which might have accounted for the low turnout - as not everyone reads the PDE.

My understanding is date will be confirmed tomorrow and it will be w/c June 4th.

[David Mc]

Agree Sid though as Div alludes to if the supporters had agitated much more - me included - a better conduit could have been in place from the start. That said as a far flung member of SMISA I know they too are hacked off with the lack of info. There's been too much emphasis on getting the CIC structure together as you say IMO without enough thought for the supporters who will fund it. However, if the June timescale on CIC is being imposed by a frustrated board there may be no room for movement at this stage. Agree with Div from a layperson's point of view that SG at least should be involved on the interim board. And for the interim board if I am not talking out of a hole in my head - possible - to develop the constitution in consultation with the membership and then vote on it. I'd very much like to see a couple of fans on the interim board too. REA has asked what talents are out there, well here's an opportunity I hope for a couple of supporters with the right skills.

[St. Sid]

I think part of the problem is that there has to be a general concensus that there is going to be a difference between the day one organisation and the one that will come to exist once the constitution has been finished and signed off.

There was always going to be an interim board to take us through the initial period. I can't see why "the fans" would need to be consulted about the make up of that board ?

In my view it should be a board that can take as smooth a handover as possible from the outgoing board, especially at this crucial time of the year. In fact I'd go further and say I hope that maybe Bryan and Stewart for example hang around on the "new" board until the AGM.

That would give us a few months to collectively create and agree the constitution of the new organisation and to allow people to put themselves forward for election etc..

The rules of the organisation will be shaped and fashioned by the members but it's unrealistic to expect that constitution to have been agreed for day one IMO.

In short, and I know this phrase has been used and ridiculed, but it is true;

10000Hours will be whatever it's members want it to be.

Div...this is supposed to be about fan empowerment. At what point are 10000 Hours and the consortium actually going to let us be empowered. The consortium have obviously been empowered in this from day one. We have now seen GLS become empowered. The social funders have been empowered already - why because they have negotiated their deals based on their financial commitment. The largest investment group are the fans and to date we have been expected to commit to a significant investment over at least 10 years. Why are we the only group not allowed to be empowered at this stage of the process?

[div]

Why are we the only group not allowed to be empowered at this stage of the process?

I don't know what it is you are expecting at this stage of the process and I can't really answer the question above.

I would certainly agree that the communication with the fans has been poor, and I can understand why some there is anxiety that the underlying finances and the source of the loans has not yet been made fully available.

The fans were issued with a draft constitution starter for ten document at the end of March and I didn't see anyone really make much noise about it then ?

I think the main challenge in all of this is juggling the expectations of the fans as they seem to vary wildy. Maybe that is another symptom of poor communication.

FWIW I have told Richard in my view the communication with fans has been poor, and that the documentation he produces is too technical, too wordy and too confusing. I think he accepts this as valid criticism but at the end of the day there is no point in suggesting that this isn't a fairly complex beast.

There is no easy way of describing it on one bit of A4 and there is no way of agreeing a draft constitution with fans if nobody can be arsed to read the first draft (and I include me in that by the way as I haven't read it).

[pozbaird]

I don't know what it is you are expecting at this stage of the process and I can't really answer the question above.

I would certainly agree that the communication with the fans has been poor, and I can understand why some there is anxiety that the underlying finances and the source of the loans has not yet been made fully available.

The fans were issued with a draft constitution starter for ten document at the end of March and I didn't see anyone really make much noise about it then ?

I think the main challenge in all of this is juggling the expectations of the fans as they seem to vary wildy. Maybe that is another symptom of poor communication.

FWIW I have told Richard in my view the communication with fans has been poor, and that the documentation he produces is too technical, too wordy and too confusing. I think he accepts this as valid criticism but at the end of the day there is no point in suggesting that this isn't a fairly complex beast.

There is no easy way of describing it on one bit of A4 and there is no way of agreeing a draft constitution with fans if nobody can be arsed to read the first draft (and I include me in that by the way as I haven't read it).

There is no easy way of describing it on one bit of A4

Aye, I know.

[St. Sid]

There is no easy way of describing it on one bit of A4

Aye, I know.

Hardly surprising as you and div appear not have read the draft constitution - which is effectively the CIC.

Let me try.......the fans group pay around £120,000.00 per year. According to the current constitution they get to vote for some SRTB to be elected to a CIC BoD. That SRTB gets to play at being a CIC Director for three years with no option for the fans to get rid of them if they turn out to be an utterly useless wanker. The fans have no say on who becomes a Director of SMFC - that appears to be decided by the CIC Board and it can be as little as one CIC director on the SMFC BoD.

At the moment that is what we get for a £120,000.00 a year investment over and above what we already put into SMFC. I can perhaps understand the reluctance to put that onto a single A4 sheet of paper; however its got very little to do with complexity.

[glenburn ed]

This is just another ham fisted attempt get some one any one to buy the club for somebody who is not going to be any use to St mirren football club, can someone tell me why this website is now seems to be the cheerleader for 10,000 hours

[St. Sid]

There is a lot of support for fan ownership. We just need to know exactly the nature of the fan ownership that is on offer and ensure that their is genuine fan empowerment. That detail has not been supplied. I've asked the question to death today and no one hs been able to provide even a half arsed attempt at explicating it.

10 bullet points explaining the exact nature of the empowerment of rank and file fans. Surely it cannae be that hard, when there's a team of successful businessmen looking for £12,000,000.00 worth of investment over ten years from the fans. Surely ti f"k they will be capable of producing that without a f'k'n brainstorming session when they have written the draft constitution in the first place furfuxake.

At the moment I wouldn't trust them to put together a pricing policy for disabled fans and their carers let alone manage that level of investment in the club on our behalf.

'mon the fans -

[div]

can someone tell me why this website is now seems to be the cheerleader for 10,000 hours

This coming in a thread that is entitled "the day fan ownership died" on said website.

If someone wants to pen an article AGAINST fan ownership of St.Mirren or against 10000Hours in general then I will publish it on the homepage of the site.

[buddiecat]

This is just another ham fisted attempt get some one any one to buy the club for somebody who is not going to be any use to St mirren football club, can someone tell me why this website is now seems to be the cheerleader for 10,000 hours

well i will have a stab at that,going by what has been posted it appears that business people (THOSE INVESTING £3K OR MORE) have been negotiating their investment and are more informed than those pledging £10 a month and also those holding judgement for the time being, a business person - div - operates this forum (and makes a good job of it) and he and others who may have pledged to invest in the 87 club have seen the concerns of £10 investors and potential investors and are worried that the amount required for the purchase of the 52% will not be achieved, which will put an end to the cic, and are trying to help others or convince others to sign up, because they are aware of the lack of information available to small investors and potential investors, so probably not cheerleading just maybe concerned that it collapses before it has begun, this is admirable, but it should be those with all the information who should be putting it all out on show, because in the current climate alarm bells are ringing when people are asked to invest in something when some facts about that something have been reported as not being available until you have invested, as posted earlier pay me money to find out what's under the sheet, it's like the old days at the open air market in glenburn or even at the barras "who'll give me a tenner for whats in this box" Edited May 23, 2012 by buddiecat

[St. Sid]

This coming in a thread that is entitled "the day fan ownership died" on said website.

If someone wants to pen an article AGAINST fan ownership of St.Mirren or against 10000Hours in general then I will publish it on the homepage of the site.

I had a quick look on the fishal site yesterday to gauge the reaction there and there doesn't appear to be much about the CIC at all. It is quite remarkable what has been achieved through this site. The debate has been allowed to crack on unabated - best and only way for something like this. The read only Q&A on the fishal site was a bit of a shocker. I never attempted to use it but did puzzle at how you can ask questions if it is read only. Is it vetted questions only via the mods there?

[Thorizaar]

can someone tell me why this website is now seems to be the cheerleader for 10,000 hours

The website has no opinion so isnt cheerleading anything. Posters can support the plan or not, which is what is happening throughout the threads.

[slapsalmon]

There is a lot of support for fan ownership. We just need to know exactly the nature of the fan ownership that is on offer and ensure that their is genuine fan empowerment. That detail has not been supplied. I've asked the question to death today and no one hs been able to provide even a half arsed attempt at explicating it.

10 bullet points explaining the exact nature of the empowerment of rank and file fans. Surely it cannae be that hard, when there's a team of successful businessmen looking for £12,000,000.00 worth of investment over ten years from the fans. Surely ti f"k they will be capable of producing that without a f'k'n brainstorming session when they have written the draft constitution in the first place furfuxake.

At the moment I wouldn't trust them to put together a pricing policy for disabled fans and their carers let alone manage that level of investment in the club on our behalf.

'mon the fans -

Is it not 1.2 million over ten years rather than 12? Your presidential campaign is in the shitter before Its even began if you canny count.

[St. Sid]

Is it not 1.2 million over ten years rather than 12? Your presidential campaign is in the shitter before Its even began if you canny count.

The £12Million relates to a cautious estimate of the overall investment over 10 years the bog standard rank and file fans will put into the club. There is a breakdown of this in one of the other threads. That's a helluva investment for one vote every three years - I think that level of investment merits more respect for and more power for the supporters group. F"k knows why any supporter other than the tie wearing wanker variety would disagree with that?

[bluto]

The £12Million relates to a cautious estimate of the overall investment over 10 years the bog standard rank and file fans will put into the club. There is a breakdown of this in one of the other threads. That's a helluva investment for one vote every three years - I think that level of investment merits more respect for and more power for the supporters group. F"k knows why any supporter other than the tie wearing wanker variety would disagree with that?

It's a bollox estimate. If fans had put that much money into saints or other Scottish clubs there would be no crisis of Scottish football... Only Sid could have consumed as many pies as his figures indicated.

[davidg]

That's me pledged, 87 club.

Get behind it, sign your DD before the deadline. Keep the club in safe hands...