Stuart Dickson Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Another SNP policy is beginning to unravel. When the SNP came into power all those years ago a central policy was one of free personal and nursing care for the elderly and free prescriptions for all. They hailed it as a master stroke and a central plank of government policy to prove that Scotland was a better place to live in than England and it was supposed to end the situation of the elderly having to sell their homes to meet care costs. So how's that been working in practice? Well in 2003 - 2004 the cost to the taxpayer was £133m, and by 2010 - 2011 that had risen massively to £342m. Criticism of the policy was levelled at the SNP from across the Scottish parliamentary spectrum for failing to control costs but the SNP re-affirmed their commitment to the policy and insisted that in an Independent Scotland we would continue to provide for the elderly. The way the policy was supposed to work was that the cost for care would be passed to local authorities to find the cash to cover the cost of personal care and nursing for the elderly while the "hotel" bill of living in a residential home would be met by the patient from their estate. However local authorities were being asked to raise this money whilst also working under the constraints of a council tax free imposed on them by the Scottish Government. This led to many wrangles and arguments and when Alex Neil took the office of Health Secretary he pledged to bring the cost of the care into the NHS budget to end the dispute. Today the BBC has revealed that far from improving the situation of Scotlands elderly, Scots are actually being denied heathcare that would have been paid for in full throughout the rest of the UK and uniquely in the UK they are also being denied a legal right of appeal http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25801571 And while there don't miss this part - BBC Scotland asked an independent expert to assess one of the cases. Mary Fyans, 86, was so severely brain damaged by a stroke that she can do nothing for herself except breathe. Independent consultant nurse Jane Buswell has 37 years of clinical experience and is an expert in long-term care of older people. She frequently reviews funding decisions as part of an appeal process in England. She reviewed all paperwork relating to Mrs Mary Fyans and visited her to carry out a face-to-face assessment. Mrs Buswell concluded that Mrs Fyans was "totally dependent on others" with "intensive and complex needs" and would qualify for NHS funding if she lived in England. Mrs Fyans' family are in the process of selling her flat in order to pay care home costs in excess of £40 000. Lets see the Nats trying to spin themselves out of that mess. Who'd have thought it - even the Tories are providing better care under the NHS than the SNP. Edited January 20, 2014 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyg Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 As an old guy in the not too distant future , god willing , I'll take my chances on a Yes vote thanks . The thought of being governed by Tories for the rest of my life is too much to bear I'm afraid ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambo57 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Why you bothered Stu? You'll have to pay the full whack for your care soon enough. Anyway, in an independent Scotland the electorate will vote for whichever party/policy they want, and it will certainly not be Tory! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 When you get really old it'll not matter a fcuk, you'll not know if you're in Scotland or the moon, roll on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Another SNP policy is beginning to unravel. When the SNP came into power all those years ago a central policy was one of free personal and nursing care for the elderly and free prescriptions for all. They hailed it as a master stroke and a central plank of government policy to prove that Scotland was a better place to live in than England and it was supposed to end the situation of the elderly having to sell their homes to meet care costs. So how's that been working in practice? Well in 2003 - 2004 the cost to the taxpayer was £133m, and by 2010 - 2011 that had risen massively to £342m. Criticism of the policy was levelled at the SNP from across the Scottish parliamentary spectrum for failing to control costs but the SNP re-affirmed their commitment to the policy and insisted that in an Independent Scotland we would continue to provide for the elderly. The way the policy was supposed to work was that the cost for care would be passed to local authorities to find the cash to cover the cost of personal care and nursing for the elderly while the "hotel" bill of living in a residential home would be met by the patient from their estate. However local authorities were being asked to raise this money whilst also working under the constraints of a council tax free imposed on them by the Scottish Government. This led to many wrangles and arguments and when Alex Neil took the office of Health Secretary he pledged to bring the cost of the care into the NHS budget to end the dispute. Today the BBC has revealed that far from improving the situation of Scotlands elderly, Scots are actually being denied heathcare that would have been paid for in full throughout the rest of the UK and uniquely in the UK they are also being denied a legal right of appeal http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25801571 And while there don't miss this part - Lets see the Nats trying to spin themselves out of that mess. Who'd have thought it - even the Tories are providing better care under the NHS than the SNP. Wrong - It's the local authority in Scotland that determines whether an individual is entitled to free nursing care or not - it has nothing to do with the Scottish Govt. In the case study the BBC has highlighted it does not appear to say where the person lives so how can you say it was an SNP decision. You would need to know what LA area she lives in before you could state who's "fault" it was (if blame was to be apportioned at all) Given the above one thing is certain - it is highly unlikely that the decision has been made by your beloved Tories given how many LA's they control in Scotland !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Spin indeed... I can understand this would be worrying if this affected you or a family member, however the beeb appears to be running this "sensational" story that this morning concerned 2 individuals. By lunchtime it had risen to 3 people. It's hardly a policy unravelling. TROLLING FAIL!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Saint Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Another SNP policy is beginning to unravel. When the SNP came into power all those years ago a central policy was one of free personal and nursing care for the elderly and free prescriptions for all. They hailed it as a master stroke and a central plank of government policy to prove that Scotland was a better place to live in than England and it was supposed to end the situation of the elderly having to sell their homes to meet care costs. So how's that been working in practice? Well in 2003 - 2004 the cost to the taxpayer was £133m, and by 2010 - 2011 that had risen massively to £342m. Criticism of the policy was levelled at the SNP from across the Scottish parliamentary spectrum for failing to control costs but the SNP re-affirmed their commitment to the policy and insisted that in an Independent Scotland we would continue to provide for the elderly. The way the policy was supposed to work was that the cost for care would be passed to local authorities to find the cash to cover the cost of personal care and nursing for the elderly while the "hotel" bill of living in a residential home would be met by the patient from their estate. However local authorities were being asked to raise this money whilst also working under the constraints of a council tax free imposed on them by the Scottish Government. This led to many wrangles and arguments and when Alex Neil took the office of Health Secretary he pledged to bring the cost of the care into the NHS budget to end the dispute. Today the BBC has revealed that far from improving the situation of Scotlands elderly, Scots are actually being denied heathcare that would have been paid for in full throughout the rest of the UK and uniquely in the UK they are also being denied a legal right of appeal http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25801571 And while there don't miss this part - Lets see the Nats trying to spin themselves out of that mess. Who'd have thought it - even the Tories are providing better care under the NHS than the SNP. is there anything you don't know nothing about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 is there anything you don't know nothing about? I see what you did there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintnextlifetime Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Don't feed the troll. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Wrong - It's the local authority in Scotland that determines whether an individual is entitled to free nursing care or not - it has nothing to do with the Scottish Govt. In the case study the BBC has highlighted it does not appear to say where the person lives so how can you say it was an SNP decision. You would need to know what LA area she lives in before you could state who's "fault" it was (if blame was to be apportioned at all) Given the above one thing is certain - it is highly unlikely that the decision has been made by your beloved Tories given how many LA's they control in Scotland !!!! It's not. It's the local HEALTH authority that makes the decision based on guidelines put in place by NHS Scotland - which has been run by the Scottish Government since devolution. The cost of the care was being met by local authorities but as I said in my original post Alex Neil said at conference in 2012 that he would move the cost back to within the NHS budget to ease the pressure of rising costs on local authorities and re-affirmed that Scotland could continue to afford to give free nursing and care to all elderly in Scotland. Now clearly that isn't happening and since the Scottish Government is responsible for NHS Scotland the buck has to stop there. It simply isn't good enough to claim - as Alex Neil attempted to today - that it's the clinicians who are to blame - especially when those affected are denied any right of appeal. Now my family does have personal experience from when my Dad was admitted into the Eventide home for the deaf in Milngavie circa 1999 and from the experience my blind dementia riddled Grandmother endured from 2008 to when she died in 2013 and we could see the obvious deterioration in the standards of care being offered through the "system". Instead of being granted the care she needed she was refused assistance on six separate occasions and it was only after she had set her flat on fire - not once but twice - that eventually they relented and arranged for a carer to visit her four times a day for 10 minutes at a time the privilege for which my Gran was billed £20 per week. What gets me is why the SNP can't just be honest about it. It's f**king expensive to keep the elderly going and Scotland can't afford it, Independent or otherwise. The same is true of the NHS. Just admit it. There's no shame in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Now my family does have personal experience from when my Dad was admitted into the Eventide home for the deaf in Milngavie circa 1999 and from the experience my blind dementia riddled Grandmother endured from 2008 to when she died in 2013 and we could see the obvious deterioration in the standards of care being offered through the "system". Instead of being granted the care she needed she was refused assistance on six separate occasions and it was only after she had set her flat on fire - not once but twice - that eventually they relented and arranged for a carer to visit her four times a day for 10 minutes at a time the privilege for which my Gran was billed £20 per week. What I can't understand is why you allowed her to go into the NHS at all. A man of your apparent income should have had her in private practice. Or did you decide that holidaying out of term time in America was better for you? Or do you mean you DON'T have private health insurance? I don't understand. Why would you boast about the amount of money you spunk on holiday and then admit you sponge off the NHS because it's presumably free? Maybe this is why the NHS is struggling? Those who can afford to pay decide not to? You, know - I'm beginning to think you're not a Tory but another tedious whining bastard who thinks he's owed a living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 It's not. It's the local HEALTH authority that makes the decision based on guidelines put in place by NHS Scotland - which has been run by the Scottish Government since devolution. The cost of the care was being met by local authorities but as I said in my original post Alex Neil said at conference in 2012 that he would move the cost back to within the NHS budget to ease the pressure of rising costs on local authorities and re-affirmed that Scotland could continue to afford to give free nursing and care to all elderly in Scotland. Now clearly that isn't happening and since the Scottish Government is responsible for NHS Scotland the buck has to stop there. It simply isn't good enough to claim - as Alex Neil attempted to today - that it's the clinicians who are to blame - especially when those affected are denied any right of appeal. Now my family does have personal experience from when my Dad was admitted into the Eventide home for the deaf in Milngavie circa 1999 and from the experience my blind dementia riddled Grandmother endured from 2008 to when she died in 2013 and we could see the obvious deterioration in the standards of care being offered through the "system". Instead of being granted the care she needed she was refused assistance on six separate occasions and it was only after she had set her flat on fire - not once but twice - that eventually they relented and arranged for a carer to visit her four times a day for 10 minutes at a time the privilege for which my Gran was billed £20 per week. What gets me is why the SNP can't just be honest about it. It's f**king expensive to keep the elderly going and Scotland can't afford it, Independent or otherwise. The same is true of the NHS. Just admit it. There's no shame in it. The Local Authority via it's Social Work dept assess whether a person requires Personal / Nursing care or not. The decision is based solely on need based on the individuals condition and cost is not a factor. The person being assessed either requires Nursing care (in the eyes of the assessor) or does not and it's based on a points system. Despite claiming to know everything about everything you clearly don't. Stop talking about areas you clearly know nothing about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Does anyone seriously think that the health minister, a politician, should be able to override a clinical decision made by a doctor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 The Local Authority via it's Social Work dept assess whether a person requires Personal / Nursing care or not. The decision is based solely on need based on the individuals condition and cost is not a factor. The person being assessed either requires Nursing care (in the eyes of the assessor) or does not and it's based on a points system. Despite claiming to know everything about everything you clearly don't. Stop talking about areas you clearly know nothing about. Cost is not a factor? That'll be a first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Does anyone seriously think that the health minister, a politician, should be able to override a clinical decision made by a doctor? The clinician is following the rules as laid out by the Health Minister. You trying to absolve him of blame is utterly ridiculous as it suggests that if Alex Neil stepped down and wasn't replaced no-one would notice....oh wait.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 The clinician is following the rules as laid out by the Health Minister. You trying to absolve him of blame is utterly ridiculous as it suggests that if Alex Neil stepped down and wasn't replaced no-one would notice....oh wait....You've avoided the question by posting drivel...again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted January 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 You've avoided the question by posting drivel...again! I've answered the question directly. The Scottish Parliament set out the criteria by which the assessments are made. It's as absurd to claim that the SNP is not involved in this as it is to claim the coalition government isn't involved in the DLA assessments which are supposedly targeting the poor UK wide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Cost is not a factor? That'll be a first. To a Social Worker making the assessment not it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I've answered the question directly. The Scottish Parliament set out the criteria by which the assessments are made. It's as absurd to claim that the SNP is not involved in this as it is to claim the coalition government isn't involved in the DLA assessments which are supposedly targeting the poor UK wide. IF you stopped posting like a daily mail headline writer you might get somewhere.IF you stopped making things up and posting inaccuracies you might have a point. IF this was known to be affecting more than 3 people in country of around 5 million, it might he more relevent. IF you stopped trying to blame politicians due to you and your relatives putting your grandmother into full time care, you might get some sympathy. IF,IF,IF... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 The clinician is following the rules as laid out by the Health Minister. You trying to absolve him of blame is utterly ridiculous as it suggests that if Alex Neil stepped down and wasn't replaced no-one would notice....oh wait.... The only person anyone on here is blaming is you personally because you swanned half way around the globe boasting of your numerous expensive holidays whilst you left your gran to suffer in a system you believe to be dreadful. So you are either a troll or an appalling grandson. Either way, not someone to have a drink with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salmonbuddie Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 They're not mutually exclusive, you know, "both" is another option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 It's proof that the SNP are heavy on promises and shit on delivery. That's been their track record in government so far. Anyone believing the Harry Potteresque nonsense in the White Paper should bear that record in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Saint Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 The Local Authority via it's Social Work dept assess whether a person requires Personal / Nursing care or not. The decision is based solely on need based on the individuals condition and cost is not a factor. The person being assessed either requires Nursing care (in the eyes of the assessor) or does not and it's based on a points system. Despite claiming to know everything about everything you clearly don't. Stop talking about areas you clearly know nothing about. Cost is not a factor? Yeah social work assess what is needed but cost is a factor to the poor buggers who have to pay cos they not eligible to get it for free. So do you not have to sell your house now to pay for a care home, is everyone eligible to get it paid for them? When you think of things as they are today and the folk that just refuse to work, get everything paid for them then when hit old age get their care home free, while folk that work all their days, buy a house then have to sell it to get looked after. it's not really a fair system at all is it. But then fook all in life is :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Cost is not a factor? Yeah social work assess what is needed but cost is a factor to the poor buggers who have to pay cos they not eligible to get it for free. So do you not have to sell your house now to pay for a care home, is everyone eligible to get it paid for them? When you think of things as they are today and the folk that just refuse to work, get everything paid for them then when hit old age get their care home free, while folk that work all their days, buy a house then have to sell it to get looked after. it's not really a fair system at all is it. But then fook all in life is :-) Agreed, it's not a fair system at all. The point I was making though is that the SNP lied. It claimed there would be a universal entitlement to free nursing and free care for the elderly and it's obviously not happening. They've tried to lead Scots to believe that we are better off in our old age here, currently, than they are in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That claim has been debunked too. Their record shows they cannot be trusted, and anyone who treats the SNP white paper with anything more than an absolute pinch of salt is a moronic fool. The fact is that the Scotland cannot afford the NHS as it currently stands. We also cannot afford the rising cost of state pensions, of welfare, or of the large public sector workforce that it takes to support those industries. I've repeatedly said that it's time for political parties to look at radical reform of our state sector so that it is genuinely honest and fair So that it rewards good citizens and punishes those who commit crimes. So that the individual has a personal responsibility for their own affairs that won't be backed up by the tax payer. If that was what the SNP were proposing in our new country I'd back it all the way, but instead the maggots running the yes campaign prefer to continue to pull the wool over the eyes of the electorate with a load of ridiculous unfinanced promises that are an attempt to con the Scottish voter down a path of no return. Edited January 23, 2014 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Saint Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Agreed, it's not a fair system at all. The point I was making though is that the SNP lied. It claimed there would be a universal entitlement to free nursing and free care for the elderly and it's obviously not happening. They've tried to lead Scots to believe that we are better off in our old age here, currently, than they are in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That claim has been debunked too. Their record shows they cannot be trusted, and anyone who treats the SNP white paper with anything more than an absolute pinch of salt is a moronic fool. The fact is that the Scotland cannot afford the NHS as it currently stands. We also cannot afford the rising cost of state pensions, of welfare, or of the large public sector workforce that it takes to support those industries. I've repeatedly said that it's time for political parties to look at radical reform of our state sector so that it is genuinely honest and fair So that it rewards good citizens and punishes those who commit crimes. So that the individual has a personal responsibility for their own affairs that won't be backed up by the tax payer. If that was what the SNP were proposing in our new country I'd back it all the way, but instead the maggots running the yes campaign prefer to continue to pull the wool over the eyes of the electorate with a load of ridiculous unfinanced promises that are an attempt to con the Scottish voter down a path of no return. I am not sure of all the ins and outs and thats why I was asking for clarification it what i posted was still the case. I had a conversation today about benefits etc and it isn't always about cutting benefits it is about making sure the right people get them when needed, that they have to stop being a 'career' choice and the level between 1.sitting in the house with your rent, council tax paid and your jsa and 2. working for minimum wage, not guaranteed hours etc is enough to make it worth your while to work otherwise some people will continue to sit on their arses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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