Orlando

[Stuart Dickson]

The thought crossed my mind today.

If even one of the Stewards, Bar Staff, Management or whoever else had a Firearm,, there may not have been the carnage that happened.

The maniac could have been brought down a lot sooner.

Of course he would and it makes you wonder why he wasn't given that the impression the UK media would like to give you of the US is that everyone wanders round with a pistol in their handbag and a semi automatic down their trousers. The reality in the US is very different. Most people don't carry guns and if you take out the FBI estimated 15,500 gang related gun homicides in the US their gun crime statistics are no where near as bad as we like to make out.

Think about this - if you go to Florida Mall in Orlando just off i-Drive you can go to a sports shop there called Dicks Sporting Goods. There at one of the store entrances, directly off the car park and leading into the rest of the mall, there is a rack of rifles, pistols, etc all open and available for handling. Beneath those guns are boxes of ammunition. There is a counter close by which wasn't manned when I was in there last September. Now do your research. The last time there was an armed robbery in the Florida Mall was in 2012 and believe it or not the weapon used was a knife!!!

It's a few years now since I visited the Walmart in Kissamee but there used to be a rifle rack next to the Orange Juice at the back of the store - I don't know if it's still there. I commented on it when talking to a policeman from Georgia that was staying in our resort at the time. He said it may look strange to us but he had never heard of a single incident where a customer had lifted one of these guns and used it to get a free shopping, never mind money from the tills. Try that one in Linwood.

The gun lobby in the US argued that instead of talking about amending their constitution that more people in officialdom should be armed. The person quoted at the time was talking after one of the school massacres over there. It was ridiculed over here but then you look at the UK and you see we've not been so good at stopping similar kinds of massacres here whether you want to talk about Michael Ryan or Thomas Hamilton. Perhaps the gun lobby has a point. If more people had guns perhaps those who intend to cause mass murder would be stopped in their tracks far sooner.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

"The Christian persecution watchdog group Open Doors has released its annual list of countries where Christians face the greatest persecution and found that it has reached unprecedented levels worldwide as over 7,000 Christians were killed for their faith between Nov. 1, 2014, and Oct. 31, 2015."

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/open-doors-world-watch-list-2015-deadliest-year-christians-killed-for-faith-jesus-christ-154875/#BZx0TUycFoVHqQ6Y.99

Does anyone remember hearing about over 7k Christians a year being killed because of their faith in the mainstream media? Perhaps TopCat can ask "God" on social media to find a funny meme about that to capture folks imagination and share?

[Stuart Dickson]

"The Christian persecution watchdog group Open Doors has released its annual list of countries where Christians face the greatest persecution and found that it has reached unprecedented levels worldwide as over 7,000 Christians were killed for their faith between Nov. 1, 2014, and Oct. 31, 2015."

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/open-doors-world-watch-list-2015-deadliest-year-christians-killed-for-faith-jesus-christ-154875/#BZx0TUycFoVHqQ6Y.99

Does anyone remember hearing about over 7k Christians a year being killed because of their faith in the mainstream media? Perhaps TopCat can ask "God" on social media to find a funny meme about that to capture folks imagination and share?

I'm not big on this tit for tat shite between religion and athiests but I have to agree with you on this one. That meme that Top Cat quoted must have been created by a holocaust denier - either that or someone really stupid.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Stuart Dickson

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I note that Mhari Black was getting in on the act last night.

She claims that this was a "total homophobic attack".

We now find out today that the gunman may well have been gay himself.

Typical of our MP to jump in without knowing all the facts...

It seems to me that there were obviously a number of issues going on in the gunman's head. His sexuality, his religion, his family and friends, his culture, society's attitudes towards homosexuality, etc, etc.

Personally, to use Owen Jones' viewpoint, I am neither gay nor religious... so I can't possibly understand the effect either would have on my mind.

It seems to me that he was mentally ill.

You've managed to show a complete and utter lack of understanding about the definition of homophobia and hate crime.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

See, here is my problem with that statement. If it's true that so many Americans think it's right to own a gun in the name of defence, why were none of the people in that club able to defend themselves by shooting this murderer with the pistols they are obviously all packing?

The gun lobby in the US is often ridiculed by us in the UK - yet here is yet another example where their argument holds weight. If everyone was carrying a fire arm there is no way this murderer could have fired off more than his first couple of bullets before being shot dead by at least one person in a crowded nightclub.

Do we have enough access to the facts to know how many other people in the club had a gun? One report I read said there was an off duty policeman there and he called for back up. Hostages were taken... perhaps people didn't want to shoot an innocent friend who was a hostage in their attempt to shoot the gunman? Perhaps self-survival kicked in and some people who had a gun thought the best way to survive was not to get into a gun fight with an opponent who had a semi-automatic versus their hand gun? Perhaps lots of gun owners don't take them on a night out with friends at their local club?

Edited June 14, 2016 by Dibbles old paperboy

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Do we have enough access to the facts to know how many other people in the club had a gun? One report I read said there was an off duty policeman there and he called for back up. Hostages were taken... perhaps people didn't want to shoot an innocent friend who was a hostage in their attempt to shoot the gunman? Perhaps self-survival kicked in and some people who had a gun thought the best way to survive was not to get into a gun fight with an opponent who had a semi-automatic versus their hand gun? Perhaps lots of gun owners don't take them on a night out with friends at their local club?

So what they actually need is everyone carrying semi automatics as opposed to handguns. Although had bomb vests as well, so mibees everyone needs to carry explosives as well.

#nralogic

[Stuart Dickson]

Do we have enough access to the facts to know how many other people in the club had a gun? One report I read said there was an off duty policeman there and he called for back up. Hostages were taken... perhaps people didn't want to shoot an innocent friend who was a hostage in their attempt to shoot the gunman? Perhaps self-survival kicked in and some people who had a gun thought the best way to survive was not to get into a gun fight with an opponent who had a semi-automatic versus their hand gun? Perhaps lots of gun owners don't take them on a night out with friends at their local club?

The only person reported to have a gun at Pulse was an armed guard stationed outside the club. He shot at Mateen and a gun battle ensued. Mateen then ran back into the club and continued shooting. That's all that has been officially released. We don't know what the clubs policy was on admission with guns or if any of the guests had guns, but certainly if the situation was as desperate as was being made out by the lad in the toilet who was texting his Mum you would have expected anyone with a gun to have had a go.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

So what they actually need is everyone carrying semi automatics as opposed to handguns. Although had bomb vests as well, so mibees everyone needs to carry explosives as well.

#nralogic

I know. I just don't get why any form of reforming / updating / changing gun laws in America is seen as some taboo which can never be considered, no matter how many mass shootings take place.

[beyond our ken]

Perhaps , guns were never quite available in this country as they are in the States but when they banned hand guns and automatics in this country , gun crime went on the increase . So , banning them stopped people getting them legally . Just like locks on doors keep honest people out . .

The U.S is 26th in the world for gun crime so it isn't even the worst because the press only tell you what they want you to know .

You might remember that in this country there was some psycho going around putting nail bombs in pubs . Was there a ban put on nails ? No , of course not . .

I don't own a gun and never have nor am I advocating that everyone should have access to them , Drew . All I'm saying is that a gun ban is not the answer . Do you have any idea how many unlicensed guns are likely to be in the U.S right now ?

What happened in that bar in Florida is something you can't really legislate against , you are right about broken minds though. .

The solution is a saner society , where people are less likely to be prescribed some mind altering psychotropic or be able access mind altering street drugs for that matter. .

There is no telling how high the gun crime rate might have gone if we had not banned ownership of hand guns

[Stuart Dickson]

There is no telling how high the gun crime rate might have gone if we had not banned ownership of hand guns

What we do know is that in 1997 - the year before the ban - 2,648 crimes were committed with a handgun. By 2001 3,685 crimes involved the use of handguns. And we also know that since the ban there has only been one year - 2010 - where the number of homicides in the UK have been lower than it was in 1996.

There is a lot of misinformation around about how effective our guns laws are in this country. It would be good if people like you researched the facts.

[oaksoft]

Imagine a social media meme being funny enough but not true.

As a Christian / religious person I am saddened and shocked by what happened in Orlando and I don't mind there being rallies where people show solidarity or councils like Aberdeen have had a rainbow-lit HQ last night. I will say that there is never the same outrage and worldwide solidarity when churches are firebombed and there are mass casualities in parts of Africa, middle east, India, Pakistan or Asia... usually it doesn't even make the news never mind being the top story.

These sorts of incidents (Orlando) wouldnt be happening if religions across the globe werent filling their sheep followers heads with utter shite about homosexuality being punishable by death.

As for christian massacres? You are almost daring people to disagree with you. Start your own thread or better still why not lobby governments if you are so desperate for attention.

This is a thread about a homophobic attack.

Edited June 15, 2016 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

I note that Mhari Black was getting in on the act last night.

She claims that this was a "total homophobic attack".

We now find out today that the gunman may well have been gay himself.

Typical of our MP to jump in without knowing all the facts...

It seems to me that there were obviously a number of issues going on in the gunman's head. His sexuality, his religion, his family and friends, his culture, society's attitudes towards homosexuality, etc, etc.

Personally, to use Owen Jones' viewpoint, I am neither gay nor religious... so I can't possibly understand the effect either would have on my mind.

It seems to me that he was mentally ill.

Its not relevant whether the guy was gay himself or not FFS.

He specifically targetted a gay bar with the specific intention of killing homosexuals.

That makes it a homophobic hate crime.

End of story.

[faraway saint]

Perhaps , guns were never quite available in this country as they are in the States but when they banned hand guns and automatics in this country , gun crime went on the increase . So , banning them stopped people getting them legally . Just like locks on doors keep honest people out . .

The U.S is 26th in the world for gun crime so it isn't even the worst because the press only tell you what they want you to know .

You might remember that in this country there was some psycho going around putting nail bombs in pubs . Was there a ban put on nails ? No , of course not . .

I don't own a gun and never have nor am I advocating that everyone should have access to them , Drew . All I'm saying is that a gun ban is not the answer . Do you have any idea how many unlicensed guns are likely to be in the U.S right now ?

What happened in that bar in Florida is something you can't really legislate against , you are right about broken minds though. .

The solution is a saner society , where people are less likely to be prescribed some mind altering psychotropic or be able access mind altering street drugs for that matter. .

Ok gun crime went on the increase after being banned. Incrementally, but the UK is still WAY down the league in deaths by fire arms so no real point to be scored on that issue IMO.

The USA has a 88.8 per 100 people owning a firearm.

Depending on the criteria you want to find USA are still high in the gun crime table, I found them 12th for deaths per 100,000 population

All the countries that have a worse rate than the USA are recognised as having less structured law enforcement, if any at all.

I'm still astounded you can't see the relation between having easy access to firearms and an increase in their use.

As for your last sentence, more smoke and mirrors avoiding the real issue.

It's fairly simple, more guns equals more deaths.

[faraway saint]

[foxbar_bud]

Of course he would and it makes you wonder why he wasn't given that the impression the UK media would like to give you of the US is that everyone wanders round with a pistol in their handbag and a semi automatic down their trousers. The reality in the US is very different. Most people don't carry guns and if you take out the FBI estimated 15,500 gang related gun homicides in the US their gun crime statistics are no where near as bad as we like to make out.

Think about this - if you go to Florida Mall in Orlando just off i-Drive you can go to a sports shop there called Dicks Sporting Goods. There at one of the store entrances, directly off the car park and leading into the rest of the mall, there is a rack of rifles, pistols, etc all open and available for handling. Beneath those guns are boxes of ammunition. There is a counter close by which wasn't manned when I was in there last September. Now do your research. The last time there was an armed robbery in the Florida Mall was in 2012 and believe it or not the weapon used was a knife!!!

It's a few years now since I visited the Walmart in Kissamee but there used to be a rifle rack next to the Orange Juice at the back of the store - I don't know if it's still there. I commented on it when talking to a policeman from Georgia that was staying in our resort at the time. He said it may look strange to us but he had never heard of a single incident where a customer had lifted one of these guns and used it to get a free shopping, never mind money from the tills. Try that one in Linwood.

The gun lobby in the US argued that instead of talking about amending their constitution that more people in officialdom should be armed. The person quoted at the time was talking after one of the school massacres over there. It was ridiculed over here but then you look at the UK and you see we've not been so good at stopping similar kinds of massacres here whether you want to talk about Michael Ryan or Thomas Hamilton. Perhaps the gun lobby has a point. If more people had guns perhaps those who intend to cause mass murder would be stopped in their tracks far sooner.

Gunman Barricaded In Walmart With Hostage

http://news.sky.com/story/1711944/gunman-barricaded-in-walmart-with-hostage

[shull]

Did Japan get relegatit ?

[faraway saint]

Did Japan get relegatit ?

Aye, but their dishing out guns galore, expect them to climb back into the big time soon.

[Kendo]

The latest news from Orlando is another horror story. A two year old boy taken by an alligator at Walt Disney World resort. It is difficult to comprehend how horrific this would be to watch. It appears his parents tried to wrestle with the alligator.

[faraway saint]

The latest news from Orlando is another horror story. A two year old boy taken by an alligator at Walt Disney World resort. It is difficult to comprehend how horrific this would be to watch. It appears his parents tried to wrestle with the alligator.

Don't go to the USA..................or South Africa.

[Stuart Dickson]

Ok gun crime went on the increase after being banned. Incrementally, but the UK is still WAY down the league in deaths by fire arms so no real point to be scored on that issue IMO.

The USA has a 88.8 per 100 people owning a firearm.

Depending on the criteria you want to find USA are still high in the gun crime table, I found them 12th for deaths per 100,000 population

All the countries that have a worse rate than the USA are recognised as having less structured law enforcement, if any at all.

I'm still astounded you can't see the relation between having easy access to firearms and an increase in their use.

As for your last sentence, more smoke and mirrors avoiding the real issue.

It's fairly simple, more guns equals more deaths.

Dunno where that 88% figure is coming from. The actual figure is 33% of adults and the state with most gun ownership is Delamere with 62%. This has actually fallen from a peak of around 50% and it continues to fall every year without a gun ban as hunting becomes less fashionable Edited June 15, 2016 by Stuart Dickson

[shull]

Don't go to the USA..................or South Africa.

Japan is bliss

[WeeBud]

Dunno where that 88% figure is coming from. The actual figure is 33% of adults and the state with most gun ownership is Delamere with 62%. This has actually fallen from a peak of around 50% and it continues to fall every year without a gun ban as hunting becomes less fashionable

Maybe some of the adults have more than one gun!!

[Stuart Dickson]

Maybe some of the adults have more than one gun!!

Maybe but that's not what Faraway states. I suggest people watch last night's Hard Talk on the BBC. David Frum was excellent and made a great case, IMO, for simply putting more paperwork in the way of people who want to own a gun. The idea being it would put those who "aren't good at life" off getting one. He said rightly IMO it would not stop the massacres but it would reduce the number of instances of teenage suicides and accidental deaths significantly. Edited June 15, 2016 by Stuart Dickson

[Drew]

The very idea of folk having guns in their bedside cabinets, and their kids playing with them and possibly injuring themselves or others (or worse) is reason alone to regard this culture as f**king nuts.

[Drew]

Maybe but that's not what Faraway states. I suggest people watch last night's Hard Talk on the BBC. David From was excellent and made a great case, IMO, for simply putting more paperwork in the way of people who want to own a gun. The idea being it would put those who "aren't good at life" off getting one. He said rightly IMO it would not stop the massacres but it would reduce the number of instances of teenage suicides and accidental deaths significantly.

"Aren't good at life"?

That's a wind-up, right?