Now THIS would make me vote Indy...

[antrin]

The last effort at an AYE vote was risible.  It failed, rightly.

 

f**kin retaining EastEnders, the Queen the GBPound...    sigh...

 

If they could come up with more policy changes like this - which will cost - but also add to the social, moral and well-being of the nation as a whole, then I would vote AYE.

 

This is a good thing.

[Drew]

55 minutes ago, antrin said:

The last effort at an AYE vote was risible.  It failed, rightly.

 

f**kin retaining EastEnders, the Queen the GBPound...    sigh...

 

If they could come up with more policy changes like this - which will cost - but also add to the social, moral and well-being of the nation as a whole, then I would vote AYE.

 

This is a good thing.

You get a like for the right to buy observation.

Like you, I'm a republican, and I also want the country out of NATO. The currency question wasn't well handled either.

I suppose the SNP were trying to ensure they didn't appear to be too radical in their proposals, and I can just about understand that. They were looking for a broad appeal.

I wouldn't class the first effort as risible, but there was certainly room for improvement. I think it is too soon to consider another referendum, though it is difficult to call.  2018 looks likely.

[Bud the Baker]

1 hour ago, antrin said:

The last effort at an AYE vote was risible.  It failed, rightly.

 

f**kin retaining EastEnders, the Queen the GBPound...    sigh...

 

If they could come up with more policy changes like this - which will cost - but also add to the social, moral and well-being of the nation as a whole, then I would vote AYE.

 

This is a good thing.

Why will it cost?

I actually had no problem with right to buy as a concept, it was the details - the discounts, forcing councils to sell below the market price which meant they lost money, and the restrictions on what they could do with the money they did receive, that I was agin.

It was one of the many "wrong battles" the Labour Party fought in the '80's.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Bud the Baker

[Drew]

Right to buy dramatically reduced the quality social housing stock, and, in many areas, effectively created ghettos of poor dwellings where those with no prospect of ever buying their home were pretty much consigned to living.

It was a fundamentally flawed policy from day one.

[salmonbuddie]

Right to buy had one major, major problem. The law prevented councils from investing the income from sales in new build social housing, the results of which were those ghettos.

[saintnextlifetime]

2 hours ago, Drew said:

You get a like for the right to buy observation.

Like you, I'm a republican, and I also want the country out of NATO. The currency question wasn't well handled either.

I suppose the SNP were trying to ensure they didn't appear to be too radical in their proposals, and I can just about understand that. They were looking for a broad appeal.

I wouldn't class the first effort as risible, but there was certainly room for improvement. I think it is too soon to consider another referendum, though it is difficult to call.  2018 looks likely.

I would prefer if we could actually get what independence means ie no unions with anyone and certainly no NATO and absolutely no wmd's on our f**ken doorsteps . . 

 

I think think we will get this but 2018 is , maybe a wee bit optimistic. .

[Stuart Dickson]

Why will it cost?

I actually had no problem with right to buy as a concept, it was the details - the discounts, forcing councils to sell below the market price which meant they lost money, and the restrictions on what they could do with the money they did receive, that I was agin.

It was one of the many "wrong battles" the Labour Party fought in the '80's.

I had an Estate Agent in my house last week telling me they couldn't give away ex Council house properties these days. He said the only people interested were Buy To Let landlords who were bidding no more than 70% of market value.

I've got no problem with the discounts or the valuations. Right to buy brought home ownership to working class families and inherited wealth to working class families. It's been the only policy of any government in my lifetime that has genuinely produced proper social mobility. Where I do agree though is that the money in should have been used to keep the supply coming.

I totally disagree with what the Scottish Government has done. No surprise there I guess. Fortunately I am aware of one lottery winner who is currently looking at setting up an SEN that will allow his tenants the right to buy in Scotland. I really do hope it takes off

[Drew]

Proper social mobility?

FFS, you know even less about that concept than you do of economics

[Drew]

Something else that should lead to people considering a future YES vote is Cameron's resignation honours list. Its embarrassing to be living in a state where this is considered remotely acceptable.

[Stuart Dickson]

Proper social mobility?

FFS, you know even less about that concept than you do of economics:lol:

How many working class families were ever troubled by inheritance tax planning pre 1979? How many are today?

[Bud the Baker]

2 hours ago, Drew said:

Something else that should lead to people considering a future YES vote is Cameron's resignation honours list. Its embarrassing to be living in a state where this is considered remotely acceptable.

TBH, I'm not bothered by the Honours unlike the extra redundancy payouts he handed them.

Hypocritical too given his pre-election pledges.

 

Edited August 1, 2016 by Bud the Baker

[DougJamie]

2 hours ago, Drew said:

Something else that should lead to people considering a future YES vote is Cameron's resignation honours list. Its embarrassing to be living in a state where this is considered remotely acceptable.

Drew, you see my fellow bud, this is exactly why the Scots don't get independence. And its frustrating. Are we anti- Tory- Anti BJ- Anti Monachary, Anti Theressa. That's why we fail.

 

2014 was a dry run. No one expected it close certainly not the SNPs which is why they wanted Demo Max . Camerons arrogance nearly cost him then never mind Brexit later.

 

I want an Independent Scotland but not until-

Europe is decided not just used as " we are different result nation". Why did Eng vote out and why did Scotland vote in?

Currency- WTF- Get a real proposal forward this time.

Pensions, Health - Whats the plan? You cant live off tartan.

Defence- Whats the plan? Stop making this anit English and start making it pro Scottish.

I reckon until the above are answered we are tied to rUK, simply cause they do have the above answers, even though they are a shower of charlatans   

[shull]

I could live off shortbread. 

Especially Walkers 

Edited August 1, 2016 by shull
f

[antrin]

1 hour ago, DougJamie said:

Drew, you see my fellow bud, this is exactly why the Scots don't get independence. And its frustrating. Are we anti- Tory- Anti BJ - Anti Monachary, Anti Theressa. That's why we fail.

 

2014 was a dry run. No one expected it close certainly not the SNPs which is why they wanted Demo Max . Camerons arrogance nearly cost him then never mind Brexit later.

 

I want an Independent Scotland but not until-

Europe is decided not just used as " we are different result nation". Why did Eng vote out and why did Scotland vote in?

Currency- WTF- Get a real proposal forward this time.

Pensions, Health - Whats the plan? You cant live off tartan.

Defence- Whats the plan? Stop making this anit English and start making it pro Scottish.

I reckon until the above are answered we are tied to rUK, simply cause they do have the above answers, even though they are a shower of charlatans   

Sound reasoning.

 

except I have never known anyone to be anti...   a BJ

[nosferatu]

21 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:

Right to buy had one major, major problem. The law prevented councils from investing the income from sales in new build social housing, the results of which were those ghettos.

#thickasfcuk

[nosferatu]

16 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

 

I had an Estate Agent in my house last week telling me they couldn't give away ex Council house properties these days. He said the only people interested were Buy To Let landlords who were bidding no more than 70% of market value.

I've got no problem with the discounts or the valuations. Right to buy brought home ownership to working class families and inherited wealth to working class families. It's been the only policy of any government in my lifetime that has genuinely produced proper social mobility. Where I do agree though is that the money in should have been used to keep the supply coming.

I totally disagree with what the Scottish Government has done. No surprise there I guess. Fortunately I am aware of one lottery winner who is currently looking at setting up an SEN that will allow his tenants the right to buy in Scotland. I really do hope it takes off

 

Its no surprise that middle class leftie's like Drew are against right to buy.

Its all about keeping the poor in their place.

The bedrock of SNP support is the poorer sections of society. They don't want that eroded.

[salmonbuddie]

Its no surprise that middle class leftie's like Drew are against right to buy.

Its all about keeping the poor in their place.

The bedrock of SNP support is the poorer sections of society. They don't want that eroded.

#thickasfcuk

#thichasfcuk

[oaksoft]

4 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

 

 Social classes are a lot of made up shite anyway, especially "middle class".

 

The hell they are. Middle class and very happy with that.

People very clearly have different social classes in this country.

[Bud the Baker]

2 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

 

 

What makes someone middle class, as compared to working or upper class?

 

Paid overtime (or by the hour) as opposed to a fixed salary might be the difference between working class and middle class.

Upper class is people wot don't have to work for a living.

Me I come from old money - alas it's so old it's no longer legal tender.

[salmonbuddie]

What if your salaried AND paid overtime by the hour?

[Stuart Dickson]

2 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

Paid overtime (or by the hour) as opposed to a fixed salary might be the difference between working class and middle class.

Upper class is people wot don't have to work for a living.

Me I come from old money - alas it's so old it's no longer legal tender.

I'm glad we've established this. I'm hourly paid, and get paid overtime. Yet I also own two houses - both paid for - take regular holidays abroad staying in luxury class hotels almost every time, and if I dropped dead tomorrow my sons would be troubled by HMRC for Inheritance Tax and I don't even have a degree. Every day I thank Mrs Thatcher for the wonderful society we live in that allows such easy social mobility. I can't imagine how shite it would be to have been brought up Russian or Chinese where everyone was supposed to be equal unless they were in the Communist Party.

Nosferatu is right though. The SNP's politics is that of anger, envy and jealousy. Keep every man down and blame it on the English. What a sad way to live you life.

 

[ford prefect]

If you have to work to maintain your standard of living. You're working class. Only bawbags desperate to look down on people are stupid enough to think they're middle class.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Black & White Army mobile app

[oaksoft]

3 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

 

What makes someone middle class, as compared to working or upper class?

 

Education has a role. Working class people tend to be less well educated and are absolutely less broadly educated. It is also about where you place yourself in society. Whilst having money doesnt make you middle class, how you spend it certainly counts.  Its not a hard and fast rule but you can usually spot a working class person who has come into money a mile off.

Attitude to time counts as well. Higher social classes tend to think either decades ahead or generations ahead. Working class people tend to have shorter time horizons. It can be argued that this is why they are paid less. Their job is to do what needs done today. Higher classes are responsible for ensuring the company is still there years from now and are rightly paid more as a result.

The biggest indicator of working class is the chip on the shoulder. Middle classes usually get on with things and are more likely to develop sharp elbows. Working classes can be characterised by their eagerness to display unbelievable levels of snobbery against the classes above them, embrace a blame culture and be whiny and resentful. Middle classes can be smug.

There are exceptions of course to all of this but that is a reasonable description of how I see the difference.

Its all about how you view yourself.

Edited August 1, 2016 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

43 minutes ago, ford prefect said:

If you have to work to maintain your standard of living. You're working class. Only bawbags desperate to look down on people are stupid enough to think they're middle class.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Black & White Army mobile app
 

A handy example of exactly what I am getting at in my last post.

Grievance and snobbery all in one sentence. Classic working class.

Edited August 1, 2016 by oaksoft

[Stuart Dickson]

2 hours ago, ford prefect said:

If you have to work to maintain your standard of living. You're working class. Only bawbags desperate to look down on people are stupid enough to think they're middle class.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Black & White Army mobile app
 

So what about those on benefits? Those who don't have to work to maintain their standard of living? Are they middle class?