Jump to content

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

 The private sector relies on the state to provide good communications, both virtual & real, learning/research institutions and an educated workforce, it might be small of me to challenge your free market fetish at this point in time but as we will be living in a Keynesian world for the foreseeable future I felt compelled - I hope when we finally exit the Covid tunnel we don't hand it back to the plutocracy.

Nevertheless, it is the private sector which causes almost all of the major innovations we see around us. There's simply no getting away from that unless you can show me examples of innovation from the public sector (who presumably rely on exactly the same set of inputs as the private sector).

You are focussing on the wrong part of the process. Innovation is an output and you are focussing on the inputs.

Edited by oaksoft

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Nevertheless, it is the private sector which causes almost all of the major innovations we see around us. There's simply no getting away from that unless you can show me examples of innovation from the public sector (who presumably rely on exactly the same set of inputs as the private sector).

You are focussing on the wrong part of the process. Innovation is an output and you are focussing on the inputs.

Hmm, I would have thought the inputs are highly significant to the outputs ???

All successful and socially just economies have strong public sector which leads to strong private sector. 

It also depends on what your definition of strong economy is, whether its profits alone or social justice and the balance between them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lenziebud said:

Hmm, I would have thought the inputs are highly significant to the outputs ???

All successful and socially just economies have strong public sector which leads to strong private sector. 

It also depends on what your definition of strong economy is, whether its profits alone or social justice and the balance between them

You are arguing against points I have not made.

We're talking about where innovation comes from.

If both public and private sector work shares the same inputs, why is it only the private sector which typically results in innovation? Why is the public sector lagging in this regard?

For example, why have we not created a publicly owned pharmaceutical research and production facility to prevent us relying on expensive drugs from the private sector?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are arguing against points I have not made.
We're talking about where innovation comes from.
If both public and private sector work shares the same inputs, why is it only the private sector which typically results in innovation? Why is the public sector lagging in this regard?
For example, why have we not created a publicly owned pharmaceutical research and production facility to prevent us relying on expensive drugs from the private sector?
Didn't we have these in the last century but sold them off?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

You are arguing against points I have not made.

We're talking about where innovation comes from.

If both public and private sector work shares the same inputs, why is it only the private sector which typically results in innovation? Why is the public sector lagging in this regard?

For example, why have we not created a publicly owned pharmaceutical research and production facility to prevent us relying on expensive drugs from the private sector?

Public sector provides many of the inputs to make the private sector function and prosper.

Your problem is that you don't value the public sector and thus can't see the link.

This might help you https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/ceci/publications/Innovation_in_the_Public_Sector/Public_Sector_Innovation_for_web.pdf

In the private sector the consequences of failure drive innovation, in the public sector its tends to provide services to the private sector that cannot fail, that doesn't mean to say that there isn't innovation in public sector also.

Edited by lenziebud

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The average cost of developing a drug and bringing it to market is 1.3 billion dollars.

I suspect that's one of the reasons why we don't have any publicly owned pharmaceutical research and production facility. Although governments do contribute financially by funding research into developing drugs.

I took a group of S6 pupils to the BHF research facility at Glasgow University a couple of years ago. The professor that led the tour, said that without private investment none of the research being carried out, whether it was drug development/testing or stem cell research would have been possible without funding from private companies.

Even penicillin wasn't manufactured in bulk until 14 years after it was discovered. The research work carried out by Florey and Chain relied on grants, but without drug companies, it just wasn't possible to manufacture the amount required.

I guess that set the tone for things to come.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the-real-story-behind-the-worlds-first-antibiotic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After this amount of time in lockdown surely the cases, which have not really dropped for almost a month, should be reducing?

IF everyone, who could, were staying at home with NO contact with other people why isn't this number dropping?

IF people who are working were maintaining the 2m social distance and adhering to the hygiene instructions surely this virus wouldn't be spreading?

Other countries who have lifted the lockdown have done so after the critical numbers have reduced. 

Why is the UK not seeing a reduction in cases?

image.png.57f08ec25a5edb893250f7904b00d664.png

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, faraway saint said:

After this amount of time in lockdown surely the cases, which have not really dropped for almost a month, should be reducing?

IF everyone, who could, were staying at home with NO contact with other people why isn't this number dropping?

IF people who are working were maintaining the 2m social distance and adhering to the hygiene instructions surely this virus wouldn't be spreading?

Other countries who have lifted the lockdown have done so after the critical numbers have reduced. 

Why is the UK not seeing a reduction in cases?

image.png.57f08ec25a5edb893250f7904b00d664.png

 

It’s simple and obvious - ask oxter...

It is a graph.

it is based on meaningless flawed data. 

more and more tests are being done now than when the graph started, thus more positive tested numbers than previously known are being noted.

as I suggested a few weeks ago:  There’s too much dirty data and far too much faith/belief invested in this crap government.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, antrin said:

It’s simple and obvious - ask oxter...

It is a graph.

it is based on meaningless flawed data. 

more and more tests are being done now than when the graph started, thus more positive tested numbers than previously known are being noted.

as I suggested a few weeks ago:  There’s too much dirty data and far too much faith/belief invested in this crap government.

Why are there so many people who are positive after this period of time after the lockdown?

Lots of countries increased their testing and their cases dropped, imagine that.

Not as simple as you make out and not all the bad governments fault. 

Edited by faraway saint

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Why are there so many people who are positive after this period of time after the lockdown?

Lots of countries increased their testing and their cases dropped, imagine that.

Not as simple as you make out and not all the bad governments fault. 

I honestly do think it IS that simple.

a lot of countries MAY have had the result you posted- I never compared other countries and their graphs.  I was offering an explanation as to why uk should not have a fall in number of cases(on a graph).

More people are now being tested. More people will show positive( though that, in itself, is not a flaw-free procedure). Other countries and other coping/testing regimes will not be like the uk ones, so comparison is invidious.

Thought YOU might have known that: “apples and oranges...”....?

Care homes were kinda ignored for too long.  Their numbers -residents and staff - contribute to still-rising numbers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, antrin said:

I honestly do think it IS that simple.

a lot of countries MAY have had the result you posted- I never compared other countries and their graphs.  I was offering an explanation as to why uk should not have a fall in number of cases(on a graph).

More people are now being tested. More people will show positive( though that, in itself, is not a flaw-free procedure). Other countries and other coping/testing regimes will not be like the uk ones, so comparison is invidious.

Thought YOU might have known that: “apples and oranges...”....?

Care homes were kinda ignored for too long.  Their numbers -residents and staff - contribute to still-rising numbers.

I understand more testing is being done but that doesn't fully explain the number of positive cases, it could just as easily tell us the numbers are falling.

Again, WHY are the cases physically rising? 

WHY, despite the lockdown, is the virus still spreading? 

Other countries have increased their testing and the numbers have gone down.

I'm very aware of the apples and oranges but there are some generic actions that can be observed and compared.

The "data" from worldometer is what I've tried to use since the start to try to keep some  relative consistency. 

I agree the numbers from care homes were not noted for too long.

The UK isn't the only country who have had issues with gathering the numbers in care homes. 

 https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1278218/Italy-death-toll-how-does-Italy-count-coronavirus-death-care-home-deaths-UK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Nevertheless, it is the private sector which causes almost all of the major innovations we see around us. There's simply no getting away from that unless you can show me examples of innovation from the public sector (who presumably rely on exactly the same set of inputs as the private sector).

You are focussing on the wrong part of the process. Innovation is an output and you are focussing on the inputs.

A different part of the process - it's wrong to believe anything other than that the private sector piggybacks on the state sector (especially at times of crisis :rolleyes:) and would struggle to innovate on it's own referring back to the examples I've already given and as others have explained the government grants they receive.

Re the current pandemic are you suggesting private companies have had no access to public health date/samples or government co-ordination.

Edited by Bud the Baker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

I understand more testing is being done but that doesn't fully explain the number of positive cases, it could just as easily tell us the numbers are falling.

Again, WHY are the cases physically rising? 

WHY, despite the lockdown, is the virus still spreading? 

Other countries have increased their testing and the numbers have gone down.

I'm very aware of the apples and oranges but there are some generic actions that can be observed and compared.

The "data" from worldometer is what I've tried to use since the start to try to keep some  relative consistency. 

I agree the numbers from care homes were not noted for too long.

The UK isn't the only country who have had issues with gathering the numbers in care homes. 

 https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1278218/Italy-death-toll-how-does-Italy-count-coronavirus-death-care-home-deaths-UK

Since we abandoned the non-policy of herd immunity I think the UK lockdown has been among the less stringent imposed and policed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Since we abandoned the non-policy of herd immunity I think the UK lockdown has been among the less stringent imposed and policed.
The only consistent thing has been the inconsistency of the message put out. It was the case in March and its still the case now with policy drip fed to favoured pet journalists. The latest shows that after a day the policy appears to be changing after they have tested reaction to news reports and headlines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

I happen to agree, which is what I've been hinting at. :wink:

 

Indeed.

I was talking to a work colleague (on the phone) during the week. Her friend's brother works in the Govan area for the police. They had to break up between 50-60 house parties last weekend. I did ask if she was sure that was the number as it seemed a bit high, but she said that was the number that had been quoted.

It really does beggar belief.

What else do you do? Put the army on the streets, point a gun in their f**kwitted faces and then cart them off to jail?

Although my mate in Guatemala was telling me that's what the army did to four American tourists who flouted their lockdown in its first week.:lol:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, FTOF said:

Indeed.

I was talking to a work colleague (on the phone) during the week. Her friend's brother works in the Govan area for the police. They had to break up between 50-60 house parties last weekend. I did ask if she was sure that was the number as it seemed a bit high, but she said that was the number that had been quoted.

It really does beggar belief.

What else do you do? Put the army on the streets, point a gun in their f**kwitted faces and then cart them off to jail?

Although my mate in Guatemala was telling me that's what the army did to four American tourists who flouted their lockdown in its first week.:lol:

 

Yet so many failing to take responsibility.

The message is very clear, well to anyone with any common sense.

IF people weren't being fcukwits the cases, IMO, would be reduced and therefore so would the fatalities.

The public blame the politicians yet, and I've seen it up here, are coming and going as if nothing has changed.

The same lunatics that are out clapping on a Thursday night. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, faraway saint said:

I understand more testing is being done but that doesn't fully explain the number of positive cases, it could just as easily tell us the numbers are falling.

Again, WHY are the cases physically rising? 

WHY, despite the lockdown, is the virus still spreading? 

Other countries have increased their testing and the numbers have gone down.

I'm very aware of the apples and oranges but there are some generic actions that can be observed and compared.

The "data" from worldometer is what I've tried to use since the start to try to keep some  relative consistency. 

I agree the numbers from care homes were not noted for too long.

The UK isn't the only country who have had issues with gathering the numbers in care homes. 

 https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1278218/Italy-death-toll-how-does-Italy-count-coronavirus-death-care-home-deaths-UK

Might that argument be solved by figures being quoted as percentage positive of those tested?

I’d say increased testing is highly unlikely to give lower numbers of cases, but we may find that those percentage numbers have dropped. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Might that argument be solved by figures being quoted as percentage positive of those tested?

I’d say increased testing is highly unlikely to give lower numbers of cases, but we may find that those percentage numbers have dropped. 
 

I agree that COULD give us a more accurate figure but, as I said, and let's use Germany for a change, higher testing showed a drop in cases leading to lower numbers in fatalities. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

I agree that COULD give us a more accurate figure but, as I said, and let's use Germany for a change, higher testing showed a drop in cases leading to lower numbers in fatalities. 

What about your cliché?

Comparing apples and f**kin oranges?  :rolleyes:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, faraway saint said:

I'm very aware of the apples and oranges but there are some generic actions that can be observed and compared.

 

5 minutes ago, antrin said:

What about your cliché?

Comparing apples and f**kin oranges?  :rolleyes:

 

Aye, what fecking about it? 🙄

Edited by faraway saint

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...