The Day Fan Ownership Died!

[St. Sid]

Worth pointing out that this is gut feel - However.....It looks to me like significant compromises have been made in fan empowerment and in the community aspect of the CIC. So the decision now is whether we want to fund a stitched up BoD to take control of the club without actually investing their own money. With organisations like SMiSA being "sidelined"; a silence from the community partners and deals being done that see what appears to be loaned money buy you an interim role running SMFC this smacks of a betrayal its original fan / community credentials.

It all smacks of an old grammarian power grab at the fans' expense. The focus will be on serving the tie wearing wanker "auction night" networking fraternity rather than the rank and file fans who are the lifeblood of the club.

I wouldn't rally against tie wearing wankers taking over the club - they are still St Mirren fans. However, I don't see why a rank and file fan would want to pay through the nose to fund their "who can scoff the most stolen sausage rolls" competition. How many disabled fans will be paying for those free sausage rolls - just the one would be one too many.

My finger is currently hovering over the send button on my cancel direct debit email. I am sure the tie wearing wankers will be able to find another ten pounds to make up for the loss of mine. That will be the level of value they will put on our investment as is bourne out by the behaviours. No rank and file fan should be investing in this unless they are absolutely certain they will have some influence on decisions that they care about.

I have heard nothing whatsoever that suggests that the BoD of the CIC will be representative of the majority of fans never mind the SMFC BoD. What's next - if there's a further shortfall on funding do we do a deal with KMG? Ticketus? The SNP? or whoever is prepared no negotiate a deal for themselves.

It may be time to back off from this for rank and file fans and just get back to being consumers of whatever club ownership / BoD we end up with. Paying for a season ticket is plenty enough investment for most of us. Perhaps once the SRTB's have control they will price the rank and file fans out of the club. Who knows - however I don't see why we should commit to paying a single penny until we know what it is we are actually getting. If these jokers can vote on the current board to fleece disabled fans what else will they be prepared to do once they have interim control followed by a three year mandate to do whatever they please?

I want genuine fan ownership, not preferred SRTB ownership. Under the original structure the CIC Board was going to be constructed from the three groups - corporate, community and general members. Each group was allocated a number of places on the BoD with a verbal agreement made at a public meeting that we could have a majority of elected general members on the BoD. My view at that time was that people like SG & Co and potentially GLS (once the huff lifted), would end up taking up the corporate places as they were going to be reinvesting in the form of corporate memberships.

Now it is looking like a small BoD and we will be voting for our favourite members of the existing BoD, with no differentiation between the suits and the rank and file general members. I just don't see how that can be talked of in terms of fan empowerment. How do the previous community members get on the BoD...have they got enough of a chunk of their own supporters signed up - so how is the community element empowered in this?

We will be swapping one commercial BoD for another commercial BoD and the rank and file fans will be funding a fairly chunky debt for the privilege. The only reason we are provided for us continuing to do this is to protect the club - from what exactly..???? Some fans are suggesting they know - so what happened to the transparency to the rest of the support that was supposed to one of the key values moving forward?

It looks like the values have been traded for a power grab. I think the cancel direct debit email will be sent now; but with an open mind to signing a new direct debit if SMiSA and the rank and file fans get back behind the proposal. Too much of a blind leap of faith for me at the moment. I'll be delighted to be convinced otherwise as I am sure all fans will.

[Guest somner9]

Worth pointing out that this is gut feel - However.....It looks to me like significant compromises have been made in fan empowerment and in the community aspect of the CIC. So the decision now is whether we want to fund a stitched up BoD to take control of the club without actually investing their own money. With organisations like SMiSA being "sidelined"; a silence from the community partners and deals being done that see what appears to be loaned money buy you an interim role running SMFC this smacks of a betrayal its original fan / community credentials.

It all smacks of an old grammarian power grab at the fans' expense. The focus will be on serving the tie wearing wanker "auction night" networking fraternity rather than the rank and file fans who are the lifeblood of the club.

I wouldn't rally against tie wearing wankers taking over the club - they are still St Mirren fans. However, I don't see why a rank and file fan would want to pay through the nose to fund their "who can scoff the most stolen sausage rolls" competition. How many disabled fans will be paying for those free sausage rolls - just the one would be one too many.

My finger is currently hovering over the send button on my cancel direct debit email. I am sure the tie wearing wankers will be able to find another ten pounds to make up for the loss of mine. That will be the level of value they will put on our investment as is bourne out by the behaviours. No rank and file fan should be investing in this unless they are absolutely certain they will have some influence on decisions that they care about.

I have heard nothing whatsoever that suggests that the BoD of the CIC will be representative of the majority of fans never mind the SMFC BoD. What's next - if there's a further shortfall on funding do we do a deal with KMG? Ticketus? The SNP? or whoever is prepared no negotiate a deal for themselves.

It may be time to back off from this for rank and file fans and just get back to being consumers of whatever club ownership / BoD we end up with. Paying for a season ticket is plenty enough investment for most of us. Perhaps once the SRTB's have control they will price the rank and file fans out of the club. Who knows - however I don't see why we should commit to paying a single penny until we know what it is we are actually getting. If these jokers can vote on the current board to fleece disabled fans what else will they be prepared to do once they have interim control followed by a three year mandate to do whatever they please?

I want genuine fan ownership, not preferred SRTB ownership. Under the original structure the CIC Board was going to be constructed from the three groups - corporate, community and general members. Each group was allocated a number of places on the BoD with a verbal agreement made at a public meeting that we could have a majority of elected general members on the BoD. My view at that time was that people like SG & Co and potentially GLS (once the huff lifted), would end up taking up the corporate places as they were going to be reinvesting in the form of corporate memberships.

Now it is looking like a small BoD and we will be voting for our favourite members of the existing BoD, with no differentiation between the suits and the rank and file general members. I just don't see how that can be talked of in terms of fan empowerment. How do the previous community members get on the BoD...have they got enough of a chunk of their own supporters signed up - so how is the community element empowered in this?

We will be swapping one commercial BoD for another commercial BoD and the rank and file fans will be funding a fairly chunky debt for the privilege. The only reason we are provided for us continuing to do this is to protect the club - from what exactly..???? Some fans are suggesting they know - so what happened to the transparency to the rest of the support that was supposed to one of the key values moving forward?

It looks like the values have been traded for a power grab. I think the cancel direct debit email will be sent now; but with an open mind to signing a new direct debit if SMiSA and the rank and file fans get back behind the proposal. Too much of a blind leap of faith for me at the moment. I'll be delighted to be convinced otherwise as I am sure all fans will.

This

Better wind that membership counter back a notch down there at 10000 hours mansions!

[Stuart Dickson]

Paisley and Wishaw huh - irrevocably intertwined in their ability to grab an Uzi and start blowing f**k out of their feet. If snatching defeat from the hands of victory ever becomes an Olympic Sport I think I could put up some world class candidates from the two towns. Thank f**k the people of Motherwell have a bit more sense about them. .

[ktf]

The best thing about this thread is witnessing Sid's multiple online meltdowns and even more numerous u-turns! You must be dizzy by now, John! No?

[saintnextlifetime]

The best thing about this thread is witnessing Sid's multiple online meltdowns and even more numerous u-turns! You must be dizzy by now, John! No?

[Big Fras]

I wouldn't be at all surprised that if there is another bid for SMFC, then it will have some form of supporter membership & representation on its board.

This whole saga has shown that there is an appetite for Saints fans to get involved in that direction, and that is without properly promoting the concept heavily to the supporters, be they local or FFFs.

If I was involved in a bid, then I would certainly be working out what % of shares could be issued by this route. The supporters membership each year then get to vote on who their representative on the BoD would be. Also, a standard annual template of decisions that need supporter backing (pricing; catering; merchandise; etc.) would be drawn up, along with procedure for the process that would require A.N.Other matter going to the fans for voting.

A lot of good ideas have come up in the last 12-18 months, & these shouldn't go to waste. The general idea of the club involving the local community more & more, making the facilities get used more often, etc. - it is a win/win for all parties.

I think any private bidder who didn't want to involve the supporters like this, in light of everything that has gone on, would be aff his heid. The commercial gains alone would make it a key part of any sensible bid.

[Vambo57]

WTF is going on? Some folk seem to think the co-op thingy is all over before its started. Somethings gonna happen via another route? Why all the secrecy? Or is it just smoke & mirrors?

HELP!

[davidg]

WTF is going on? Some folk seem to think the co-op thingy is all over before its started. Somethings gonna happen via another route? Why all the secrecy? Or is it just smoke & mirrors?

HELP!

The club will be sold to either the co-op thingy or a private bidder and there's slim to zero chance of the private bidder being a Saints fan or having fan involvement like the co-op thingy.

The co-op is still very much on and is far more likely to last the distance now GLS is on board. I find it astonishing that some people would prefer to roll the dice with a private bidder than back the co-op, it's got to be the best option on the table.

[saintnextlifetime]

I wouldn't be at all surprised that if there is another bid for SMFC, then it will have some form of supporter membership & representation on its board.

This whole saga has shown that there is an appetite for Saints fans to get involved in that direction, and that is without properly promoting the concept heavily to the supporters, be they local or FFFs.

If I was involved in a bid, then I would certainly be working out what % of shares could be issued by this route. The supporters membership each year then get to vote on who their representative on the BoD would be. Also, a standard annual template of decisions that need supporter backing (pricing; catering; merchandise; etc.) would be drawn up, along with procedure for the process that would require A.N.Other matter going to the fans for voting.

A lot of good ideas have come up in the last 12-18 months, & these shouldn't go to waste. The general idea of the club involving the local community more & more, making the facilities get used more often, etc. - it is a win/win for all parties.

I think any private bidder who didn't want to involve the supporters like this, in light of everything that has gone on, would be aff his heid. The commercial gains alone would make it a key part of any sensible bid.

The only snag with a supporter on the board is, that certain supporters would, in that position , sack the manager , on a very regular basis. .

[David Mc]

I know you are being ironic. What it may do is force some fans to stop stirring it. They might even have to meet face-to-face and work together for the benefit of the CIC/club. Can only be a good thing.

[northendsaint]

No one from the Cic team has approached our supporters club at any time to explain the format regarding supporters owning the club.I would have thought groups like ours would be the first to be targeted and we could have spread the gospel on this wonderful venture.Instead it has been promoted on this website with people who would not get a seat at the back of the class never mind on a board of directors.I am willing to place my trust in both Tony and Gordon and would welcome Bryan McAusland to stay on and lead our club forward.As for fans as directors only a Neil Kennedy or Tam McGarry type would suit me.To qualify you must have visited Brechin,Dingwall,Peterhead midweek in winter.

[St. Sid]

The club will be sold to either the co-op thingy or a private bidder and there's slim to zero chance of the private bidder being a Saints fan or having fan involvement like the co-op thingy.

The co-op is still very much on and is far more likely to last the distance now GLS is on board. I find it astonishing that some people would prefer to roll the dice with a private bidder than back the co-op, it's got to be the best option on the table.

SRTB, VESTED INTEREST POSTER ALERT!!!!

[davidg]

SRTB, VESTED INTEREST POSTER ALERT!!!!

Please explain?

[St. Sid]

The best thing about this thread is witnessing Sid's multiple online meltdowns and even more numerous u-turns! You must be dizzy by now, John! No?

There is no u-turn....I have always said that everyone should be heard and 10000 Hours should be given there chance. They've had a good run without any challenge from me, other than when I raised concerned about the lack of a constitution, which brought similar wanky posts from the 10000 Hours mafia shirtlift-tenants that you have just made.

We cannot have a fan owneership dependent on a select few fans drip feeding unverified blah, blah at this stage in the game. We need very f'k'n specific information on what it is we are signing the club over to. It has always been my view that the CIC would deliver very little for me as an individual. I buy a season ticket, attend games and post St Mirren related shite on the internet - who actually owns the club is of limited interest as the sausage roll thieving get a mate on the BoD so I can fleece just that little bit more out of the club is of zero interest. I won't use a supporters bar as I drive my kids to the game.

So for me it has always been about the community side and the fan empowerment side that would help grow the club. That has been compromised. All the shite about it protecting the long term future has also not been proven as yet - it can't be as we do not have the final numbers to gauge how much risk is actually involved. To date that has been managed by soundbites.

I am not dizzy about the CIC at all, which is remarkable considering its "multiple meltdowns and numerous U-turns", that you've got the brass neck to accuse me of.

Either put forward information to help people understand what the CIC is going to deliver for us or stick to general nonsense threads ktf.

[St. Sid]

Please explain?

"Nope" - remember that response from you a few posts back.

[davidg]

"Nope" - remember that response from you a few posts back.

Not got an answer……

[St. Sid]

Not got an answer……

Exactly my point.

[davidg]

Exactly my point.

You failed to read my answer yesterday…

I edited while you posted a picture of yourself.

Edited May 26, 2012 by davidg

[FTOF]

The club will be sold to either the co-op thingy or a private bidder and there's slim to zero chance of the private bidder being a Saints fan or having fan involvement like the co-op thingy.

The co-op is still very much on and is far more likely to last the distance now GLS is on board. I find it astonishing that some people would prefer to roll the dice with a private bidder than back the co-op, it's got to be the best option on the table.

Indeed.

I reckon some folk are waiting for some sort of fantasy bid where everyone will be patting each others backs and agreeing entirely with each other,whilst at the same time each individual gets a say in club matters ranging from the colour of bog roll in the toilets to sacking the manager.

Get f**king real.This is the best offer we're going to get, that gives the fans any sort of say so in influencing some aspects of the running of the club IMO.

Given the utter drivel displayed by certain posters on this site,I for one am glad that the many so called "experts" on every matter under the sun, won't get anywhere near having a major say in what happens with the club,as they simply like the sound of their own voices and they'd be elevated to crashing bore status in the public domain instead of just on the internet.

Edited May 26, 2012 by FTOF

[HSS]

As for fans as directors only a Neil Kennedy or Tam McGarry type would suit me.To qualify you must have visited Brechin,Dingwall,Peterhead midweek in winter.

You must also have been permitted to enter the stadium which would rule Tam out.

The CiC/Co-op thingy will be getting nothing from me until the Fans Rep has been decided.If I like the choice I'm in,if I don't I'm not.

Have to agree though with a Neil Kennedy type,someone like him would be perfect.Maybe even an Ian Broon type would be good at the job.

Give me a shout after the vote takes place please.

[Guest somner9]

19 days till the farce ends

[St. Sid]

You failed to read my answer yesterday…

I edited while you posted a picture of yourself.

I know you did......however, we were actually under a more serious threat from KMG and his scumgers backed bid when you were refusing to sign up your £10-a-month. So that can't be the reason for your change of position on the CIC. That is just a soundbite you are throwing out to fans to try and scare them into committing to the £10-a-month you weren't prepared to commit to previously.

We are now at the point were we need to know the detail of the CIC - how it will actually work, what the financial risks are, how many SRTB will be sticking their nose in the trough of the fans investment and last but not least what do the fans actually get.

At the moment it looks to me like the fans are going to get money taken out of their account with no actual information on the specifics of how the club will operate in the future. It is looking increasing like the BoD of SMFC has already been decided upon. So they must have an idea of what they are going to do with the club. Let's hear some of the ideas they have for the club. Various offers have been made to various organisations in return for their support - the latest being GLS. We know about some of the community partners from the earlier public meetings. The bar certainly still appears to be on the go. What other deals have been done for as yet unnamed organisations to get their nose in the trough of the club?

I really don't see how all these deals can be done and yet the best the fans who are the biggest investors get is "somebody else will own your club" - it strikes me that every other cnut bar the fans are going to own and beenj from our club.

Back when sir david murray took over scumgers, the business blah, blah was all "risk is good!" bollox. Now every man and their dug is riding the wave of social entrepreneurship. Murray rode of the wave of the last tory mantra. Social entrepreneurs are riding the wave of the new tory social mantra....The Big Society. We need absolute proof that this is something more than a power grab and is actually about the supporting community first, the wider community second and the power grabbing nose in trough scumbags last. To date we have no evidence of fans getting involved in this beyond the commercially-minded "let's fleece the disabled fans because we can" brigade.

I'm asking the same question.....why should any St Mirren fan pay over and above what they already do to end up with the same commercially-minded, "fans come last" in any decision type management of the club we have now.

If GLS, REA, SG, BMcA, etc all want to run a football club then they should pay for the privilege. We certainly shouldn't be paying for that, and worse paying for it through a financial model that includes debt. We were already looking at around 10 years of debt for the CIC that fans would be the mugs paying for. The upshot of this is that we maybe get rid of a couple of people who don't want to be on the BoD........why can't REA and GLS just buy a couple of the members who no longer want to be in the club any more shares with their own money. Why the need for this complicated exercise that demands payment from fans without the f'k'n courtesy to tell us what we will actually get at the end of the day.

Robo had a go at looking at the constitution and should be appluaded for that. However, no one else has actually produced a morsel of facts about how the CIC will operate and what form the "fans empowerment" will take.

What I would have hoped for is pretty much the same as NorthEndSaint....a couple of long standing Saints fans that are heavily involved in the activities of the rank and file support, that understand that experience, that understand the values of that significant and enormously important element of the support. It would appear that that sort of supporter is not "BoD" material and will have to be happy with a vote once every three years. So we are back to being at the decion making at the club being carried out by SRTBs and their "deal-minded" nose in the trough shite. Why would we pay for that?

[St. Sid]

Get f**king real.This is the best offer we're going to get, that gives the fans any sort of say so in influencing some aspects of the running of the club IMO.

You "get f**king real" and explain how this influence is actually going to work.

Three scenarios - what will the process be for fans influence in these instances:

The upcoming SPL Vote.

The disabled fans ticket pricing.

Inroduction of an articial pitch.

How will the decision making on those issues be influenced by the promised empowerment of the community?

It is not complicated....it doesn't require more than an A4 sheet of paper. My view is that the SMFC BoD, which will not be elected by the general members will vote on it and make the decision and there'll be f"k all we can do about it...just as is the case now.

[FTOF]

You "get f**king real" and explain how this influence is actually going to work.

Three scenarios - what will the process be for fans influence in these instances:

The upcoming SPL Vote.

The disabled fans ticket pricing.

Inroduction of an articial pitch.

How will the decision making on those issues be influenced by the promised empowerment of the community?

It is not complicated....it doesn't require more than an A4 sheet of paper. My view is that the SMFC BoD, which will not be elected by the general members will vote on it and make the decision and there'll be f"k all we can do about it...just as is the case now.

And life in La La land goes on................................................

[St. Sid]

And life in La La land goes on................................................

So you don't know how the CIC actually works then.

We have pledged to give 10000 Hours the opportunity to progress this to the point where they have a chance of progressing it. We are at that point. I think we should now withdraw the pledges until they actually deliver the detail of what we are committing ourselves to. So far no one has been able to talk about the basic of the CIC never mind the detail.

Drop an email to 10000 Hours and let them no your direct debit is cancelled, but that you are happy to complete another form should they explain to us exactly what they are proposing. Once we are happy with the response we complete up to date forms or reinstate the current ones. At the moment, we have commited to an ever changing proposal that has now been compromised umpteen times. We need to know what it is we are getting. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that?