The Referendum Thread

[oaksoft]

not in a million years will you rely, er, except for this one :

bluto must be devestated to miss out on your wisdom

grow up, no you grow up, no you grow up

you're such an smug intellectual oaky

So where's that proof of your relatives benefits payments allowing her to party her way through a holiday in Turkey then?

[oaksoft]

How many people who bought their council house at a massive discount complained at the time?

It was a scheme i was never in favour of, and although i don't blame anyone for taking advantage of it, it contributed massively to the financial problems of this country.

It brought out the greed gene in every house seller.

It certainly did. It has been yet another contributor to the obscenity that is our housing "market" and it is continuing to cause misery for millions of people across the UK.

An independent Scotland would of course still have the same type of problem but crucially it would be a smaller problem to solve both in terms of the numbers involved and the cost associated with it.

The combination of council house selling and those unscrupulous bastards who own more than one house using other peoples money to do so has caused absolute devastation for countless others.

[faraway saint]

So where's that proof of your relatives benefits payments allowing her to party her way through a holiday in Turkey then?

What kind of proof, exactly, do you require?

[TopCat]

Personally speaking you'll find me repeatedly saying ALL pollsters should be ignored because it's pretty glaringly obvious what the problem is with their methods.

Not one of them has this correct.

It's just nice to see one of them incorrectly predicting we're on the verge of a Yes vote rather than incorrectly predicting we're getting a No landslide.

Now leave us to enjoy our minute or two of happiness.

You have predicted a no victory several times

[oaksoft]

Wouldn't these people have then went onto buy another house, so it really did achieve what it was meant to, give people ownership of their own home?

Everybody, well, almost everybody, sells a house for profit and reinvests it in other property.

I agree the profit margins were outrageous, but many people who did take advantage are still in these houses.

No it didn't. It morphed into a large number of people owning more than one home.

That's the problem FS.

Housing is a relatively finite resource.

It should not be getting used for profit and certainly not by landlords doing nothing for 5 years and finding their "business" has gone up 30%.

It's the abuse of this finite resource which is causing a social timebomb.

Tories say "Well build more houses then".

Yeah so we should concrete over our green fields so the same people can buy even more houses?

How exactly will that solve the problem?

We need to solve the root problem.

How do you get enough houses off people who don't live in them to solve the problem?

[salmonbuddie]

You have predicted a no victory several times

He hasn't contradicted that, TC, read his post again. Edited September 4, 2014 by salmonbuddie

[oaksoft]

What kind of proof, exactly, do you require?

I want him to explain what benefits she's getting which would allow her to party her arse off in Ankara's hottest nightclubs on one holiday and then put her feet up and plan her next holiday.

He's engaging in demonisation of a whole group of people who are already the most vulnerable and excluded in our society.

Now you'd have to ask why he'd lie through his back teeth about those same people.

It's like walking around kicking frail OAPs in zimmer frames. Yes it's easy to do but why would you do it?

Why would you bully someone who was already on their knees?

[oaksoft]

I know I'm heavily biased towards the No Campaign, but I find it utterly incredible that any Scots at all would be voting for Independence simply on the basis that change would always be better.

OK folks. Hands up if this is why you are voting Yes.

It's not why I'm votiing Yes and I don't know anyone who is voting Yes for that reason either.

Neither is it because we hate the English.

You'd have thought that after 370 pages of this, you'd at least understand some of the reason why people are voting Yes. You may not agree with them but really you should know by know why they are voting that way.

I'll start the "Educate Dicky" lesson.

I'm voting Yes....now pay attention......because I believe in self determination and self sufficiency.

At the moment only about 8% of MPs represent my country on the things that matter to me. After independence 100% will represent my country. That is inherently a better thing than we currently have. No I don't want to get into an argument about the makeup of that 100%. That is nothing to do with independence and everything to do with the next election. I can't be expected to predict the future.

Right. Self determination. Who else wants to help Dicky out?

[TopCat]

So if we vote yes I take it yes voters would support the right of the Shetlanders to self determination?

[barney]

Can you show evidence of this and of how it was done?

My memory may well be failing but the way I remember the scheme it was purely to allow council tenants, who had paid £thousands to their local authority in rent payment, and who were often still living in sub habitable conditions due to the councils inability through lack of finance to effect repairs on their housing stock, never mind improvements, the opportunity to purchase their house. This was done at a percentage discount based on the current estimated value of the property and the number of years an individual had been a tenant.

Done a quick google search and this came up which shows the result of the private companies buying into housing stock. There war e2 ways from memory - companies approached individuals and offered incentives for them to opt in to the right to buy scheme on the basis that the property is passed on immediately. http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/private-landlords-seize-right-to-buy-homes/6526526.article

The lack or rent coming in on housing also slowed the volume of developments of affordable, social housing that we are currently experiencing. In the short term it freed up resources to improve social housing, but in the long term it has failed the very people it was meant to help.

[salmonbuddie]

So if we vote yes I take it yes voters would support the right of the Shetlanders to self determination?

Of course we would, it's already been covered. More importantly, would No voters support that right?

[Phil McCracken]

So where's that proof of your relatives benefits payments allowing her to party her way through a holiday in Turkey then?

how and why would i need to give proof like that?

not only is my mother in law able to afford to save up and go to turkey on holiday every year, she actually paid for my wife, 2 kids, me and her to all go to euro Disney a couple of years ago

all saved up on benefits

she hasn't earned a single penny for 40 years. She has lived entirely on benefits

food banks?

looking at the size of her, she looks like she's eaten a food bank!

my wife was raised in a 1 parent family, entirely on benefits. She is incredulous when people talk about poverty.

the very fact that you are asking me for proof signifies to me that you don't actually know the reality of people in benefits in this country

much like your knowledge about everything else!

[Phil McCracken]

I want him to explain what benefits she's getting which would allow her to party her arse off in Ankara's hottest nightclubs on one holiday and then put her feet up and plan her next holiday.

He's engaging in demonisation of a whole group of people who are already the most vulnerable and excluded in our society.

Now you'd have to ask why he'd lie through his back teeth about those same people.

It's like walking around kicking frail OAPs in zimmer frames. Yes it's easy to do but why would you do it?

Why would you bully someone who was already on their knees?

you want me to explain to you?

i really couldn't give a toss if you believe me or not!

and where have i demonised anyone?

you've just made that up!

my mother in law gets so much money in benefits that she can save up to take a whole family to euro Disney and go to turkey every year

that's not demonisation

that's a fact

you're a very angry man oaky

[TopCat]

Of course we would, it's already been covered. More importantly, would No voters support that right?

Of course I would.

I do worry though. If Shetland goes independent post YES - which isn't unlikely - I think we could see a domino effect. Orkney could go next, then who knows, the border regions are very pro union...

Scotland as we know it could break up pretty quickly.

Yet another reason why we are all better together

[FTOF]

Of course I would.

I do worry though. If Shetland goes independent post YES - which isn't unlikely - I think we could see a domino effect. Orkney could go next, then who knows, the border regions are very pro union...

Scotland as we know it could break up pretty quickly.

Yet another reason why we are all better together

Shetland etc. will vote No once we've told them that they can't use our pound, it will be so difficult to get back into the EU, they'll not get into NATO, we'll set up border controls...............

Feel free to add to the list of things that they won't be able to do/get if they vote for independence.

[oaksoft]

So if we vote yes I take it yes voters would support the right of the Shetlanders to self determination?

Personally? Yes but they'll have to make their case just like Scotland did.

It took us 300 years so they'd better be prepared to be patient but in principle yes.

You seem to think you have some killer argument here but this is all rather straightforwards.

[oaksoft]

how and why would i need to give proof like that?

not only is my mother in law able to afford to save up and go to turkey on holiday every year, she actually paid for my wife, 2 kids, me and her to all go to euro Disney a couple of years ago

all saved up on benefits

she hasn't earned a single penny for 40 years. She has lived entirely on benefits

food banks?

looking at the size of her, she looks like she's eaten a food bank! :

my wife was raised in a 1 parent family, entirely on benefits. She is incredulous when people talk about poverty.

the very fact that you are asking me for proof signifies to me that you don't actually know the reality of people in benefits in this country

much like your knowledge about everything else!

I do know which is why I was asking you.

Just name the figures. How much is she getting?

Exactly what benefits are paying this level of money?

You are bullshitting.

[oaksoft]

you want me to explain to you?

EuroDisney? On benefits?

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

You are a lying bastard.

The demonising comes from wrongly trying to persuade people that those on benefits are basically scrounging off our efforts when it isn't the case. You are spreading lies in an attempt to provide an easy bogeyman.

That's a very Tory thing to do Duke.

I'll tell you what though, if anyone else out there genuinely thinks that people on benefits can save those benefits and manage two holiday trips for their entire family in one year let's hear it.

Keep a straight face though folks.

Come on. Someone must be able to back him up.

Edited September 4, 2014 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

Of course I would.

I do worry though. If Shetland goes independent post YES

Oh FFS

[buddiecat]

EuroDisney? On benefits?

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

You are a lying bastard.

The demonising comes from wrongly trying to persuade people that those on benefits are basically scrounging off our efforts when it isn't the case. You are spreading lies in an attempt to provide an easy bogeyman.

That's a very Tory thing to do Duke.

I'll tell you what though, if anyone else out there genuinely thinks that people on benefits can save those benefits and manage two holiday trips for their entire family in one year let's hear it.

Keep a straight face though folks.

Come on. Someone must be able to back him up.

there is currently a cap on benefits,below are the cap levels taken from gov.uk site

• £500 a week for couples (with or without children living with them)
• £500 a week for single parents whose children live with them
• £350 a week for single adults who don’t have children, or whose children don’t live with them.

these amounts would be from several benefits, disabled people are rightly paid the most but in varying levels according to their disability,so one single person could get £500 per week, people on jobseekers allowance or a single sickness benefit are paid £72,40 per week and could get housing benefit on top if they rent their property , it is possible that someone could save up and go on holiday if they were at or near the top of the cap level,but this would be a minority and would also be people who have been on benefits like DLA and AA which are no longer available to new claimants,

i am not wishing to be part of your wee tiff with Phil, just giving info from my knowledge of benefits.

ETA housing benefit is part of the £500 cap if you pay rent, if you own you own home and dont pay rent there is no change in the cap level, so someone owning their own home could get £500 per week

Edited September 4, 2014 by buddiecat

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The scaremongering is getting pretty desperate - will nobody think of the Shetlanders / Orkadians / Borderers. What if Inverclyde becomes a people's republic?

[FTOF]

The scaremongering is getting pretty desperate - will nobody think of the Shetlanders / Orkadians / Borderers. What if Inverclyde becomes a people's republic?

Well, they certainly seem to be revolting down there, so maybe they're thinking about it......................................

[Bud Bundy]

there is currently a cap on benefits,below are the cap levels taken from gov.uk site

• £500 a week for couples (with or without children living with them)
• £500 a week for single parents whose children live with them
• £350 a week for single adults who don’t have children, or whose children don’t live with them.

these amounts would be from several benefits, disabled people are rightly paid the most but in varying levels according to their disability,so one single person could get £500 per week, people on jobseekers allowance or a single sickness benefit are paid £72,40 per week and could get housing benefit on top if they rent their property , it is possible that someone could save up and go on holiday if they were at or near the top of the cap level,but this would be a minority and would also be people who have been on benefits like DLA and AA which are no longer available to new claimants,

i am not wishing to be part of your wee tiff with Phil, just giving info from my knowledge of benefits.

ETA housing benefit is part of the £500 cap if you pay rent, if you own you own home and dont pay rent there is no change in the cap level, so someone owning their own home could get £500 per week

Look NawBag, Why dont You Just Grow a Pair, And Explain why over 1.000,000 People are waiting on Decicision relating To there Entitlement To PIP & ESA ?

Yes Benefit Cap's are a Great Idea, If You can make a decision as to Entitlement ? But Let's face It, The whole System is a mess, In an Independent Country, We would have The Resources that allow our Local Authorities, Who Do this Job at this moment in Time ?

[Stuart Dickson]

So if we vote yes I take it yes voters would support the right of the Shetlanders to self determination?

I hope they don't suggest they are too wee or too stupid after all their slabbering.

[Stuart Dickson]

Done a quick google search and this came up which shows the result of the private companies buying into housing stock. There war e2 ways from memory - companies approached individuals and offered incentives for them to opt in to the right to buy scheme on the basis that the property is passed on immediately. http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/private-landlords-seize-right-to-buy-homes/6526526.article

The lack or rent coming in on housing also slowed the volume of developments of affordable, social housing that we are currently experiencing. In the short term it freed up resources to improve social housing, but in the long term it has failed the very people it was meant to help.

That article doesn't prove what you claim it does. What may have happened is that the original council tenant may have became a landlord, or indeed that they may have sold on their property having bought it to someone else - which of course they had every right to do.

I worked in Financial Services for three years around this period and I can't remember any scheme like the one you claim existed. I do remember that banks and lenders were particularly keen to take on council tenants wishing to buy Right To Buy properties because they were an excellent risk. It may be the case that those banks and building societies eventually repossessed those properties after payment defaults but that would be the only way I could imagine the kind of scenario happening in the way that you claim. After all council tenants had to maintain ownership of the property for a number of years before selling it on or they had to pay back the discount, and there would be no benefit I can think of for them to go through the right to buy process only for them to hand over their house to someone who would kick them out their home.

The only flaw in the system was that instead of reinvesting the money they took in from the sale of housing stock in building new properties the money wasn't ring fenced and local authorities were able to use the income to pay for other services instead. Maybe Thatcher should have envisaged this and stopped councils from doing this but regardless she improved the financial standing of hundreds of thousands of working class families with that one policy alone. It was popular. it succeeded in raising living standards for those who bought their homes and for those who continued to rent from the council.