The Referendum Thread

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Especially after what these Cnut's Did ?

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Judging by the look on the faces of Alexander, Brown, Curran & Davidson; wee Dougie's just trumped...

[Bud Bundy]

Judging by the look on the faces of Alexander, Brown, Curran & Davidson; wee Dougie's just trumped...

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Killie fans coming at it from a different angle

http://yeskilliefans.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/20130514-185718.jpg?w=625

[Stuart Dickson]

Best quote of the debate so far came tonight from Elaine.c.smith ,

" the no campaign are telling you to get on the bus, get to the back and shut up"

Who was that wee boy that came on at the end with the red shirt and blue suit on?

That's interesting in a completely boring way. I didn't watch the programme. I was busy coaching a football team but by all accounts Elaine C Smith was an absolute car crash. I have to say though from what you are saying it sounds far more like Elaine C Smith was talking about the Yes Campaign. After all they've been very good at telling us all the things that bad old Westminster is supposed to have done wrong but they aren't very good at coming up with evidence, costings or indeed anything of any credibility at all to tell us what an "independent" Scotland would do about it.

Indeed we now know that an Independent Scotland won't scrap bedroom tax unless Westminster does it and we now know that their pledge on pensions was an absolute fallacy. We've also discovered this week that an Independent Scotland WOULD have to take part in each and any conflict that NATO decides to get involved in despite the Yes Campaign having made great play of the idea that we wouldn't get involved in any conflicts the Scottish Government deems as illegal. We've also found out that the Natsi pledge to remove Trident from the Clyde is more than a bit disingenuous too since we've discovered that Alex Salmond wouldn't do anything about it until 2020 at least and probably more likely 2025 - that is if we ever get rid of Trident at all because according to his former policy advisor it's the first thing Salmond would offer up to trade for a Currency Union, or for some favourable terms from the EU.

We also know that whilst Salmond was claiming that only a Yes Vote could have the NHS from privatisation, he was spending £100m per annum contracting private healthcare providers to provide Scottish NHS treatment. And whilst all this is going on Ken McAskill has been all but buried by the SNP no doubt because of the humiliating way he handled the arming of police officers in Scotland - a move reminiscent of the arming of the Brown Shirts in 1930's Germany. We also know that whilst the SNP love to talk about the scandal of food banks in Scotland, Alex Salmond thinks nothing of spending £100,000 of taxpayers money on a weeks junket to New York or £25,000 PER DAY on a "Gentlemans Club" in Pal Mall during the Olympic Ganes.

Anyone voting Yes needs their head examined.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Katie Bear]

dah dee dah ...didn't watch it not ..really that interested despite posting over 1300 times on it....Yes Celeb must be crap...blahh blahh.....throw in a few nazi references...doo booo deee Salmond junkets.....and we're done....20 seconds scan.... about fair...next.

Fair summary?

[Vambo57]

vambo, if u want to engage with me u will first of all need to obtain a brain

u are sew right Is that a proposal

now all of that might mean something if you get a left of centre labour party standing for election, why are the scottish labour party not declaring a wish for a yes vote now - and how do we know they will switch to left centre if yes wins, they might actually get me to vote yes if they stand up and state they will be left of centre in a new scotland, but they wont do that will they,because if no wins then their london overlords might bin them

Exactly Bud, they are toeing the party line... for now. Selkf-intesest from career politicians. Who'da thunk it?

occupational pension schemes, pension funds, international flows of capital, HSBC and even McDonalds

Yesterday highlighted how very little some folk actually know.

And other than a string of epic fails, the other consistency is that every single post ended with the predictable Natsi abuse...

Roll on the inevitable no vote on the 18th Sept!

Oh the irony!

Seen some nice person had went into a field and demolished a "No thanks" sign on my way to work this morning.

Had to walk about 50 yards to get to this sign through a nice muddy field.

Do these morons, and both sides will have them, think this helps their cause?

Yes, that was nice of you ;)

[salmonbuddie]

Sorry. Don't get that....

The Yes campaign is criticised for invoking the spirit of Braveheart or Bannockburn (falsely, imo, it's usually the No campaign who bring them up) because they happened 700 years ago and aren't relevant to today. Apparently Darien from 300 years ago is relevant, though.

[Stuart Dickson]

The Yes campaign is criticised for invoking the spirit of Braveheart or Bannockburn (falsely, imo, it's usually the No campaign who bring them up) because they happened 700 years ago and aren't relevant to today. Apparently Darien from 300 years ago is relevant, though.

So it was the No campaign who put on some loss making pretendy fighting at Bannockburn, who ran a failed torchlight procession at Bannockburn and who sent Alex Salmond to Arbroath to read a declaration? Oh no wait , it wasn't

[salmonbuddie]

Seen some nice person had went into a field and demolished a "No thanks" sign on my way to work this morning.

Had to walk about 50 yards to get to this sign through a nice muddy field.

Do these morons, and both sides will have them, think this helps their cause?

Can't load pics from my mobile and my laptop's f**ked at the mo, but there's a photo on one of the Yes pages (Aberdeen, iirc, so in your neck of the woods) of coos eating one of those signs......

[Stuart Dickson]

I see that the Yes Campaign has been breaking laws by placing their banners on private land without the permission of the owner and without Planning Permission and that it's earned them a stern rebuke from Electoral Commission. I also noticed last night - when driving through to Midlothian, that the villages of Kilncadzow and Carnwath - which had been blighted by Yes campaign fly posting - has been "cleaned up". The lady running the Village Bakery told me it was locals who took down each one of the posters as they were disgusted at way these posters ruined the village.

I can never understand why political parties, campaigns and politicians use this form of advertising anyway. Has anyone in the world ever been swayed by walking past a lamp post that has some sort of poster on it saying "Yes" or "No".

[billyg]

I see that the Yes Campaign has been breaking laws by placing their banners on private land without the permission of the owner and without Planning Permission and that it's earned them a stern rebuke from Electoral Commission. I also noticed last night - when driving through to Midlothian, that the villages of Kilncadzow and Carnwath - which had been blighted by Yes campaign fly posting - has been "cleaned up". The lady running the Village Bakery told me it was locals who took down each one of the posters as they were disgusted at way these posters ruined the village.

I can never understand why political parties, campaigns and politicians use this form of advertising anyway. Has anyone in the world ever been swayed by walking past a lamp post that has some sort of poster on it saying "Yes" or "No".

You should see Annabel Goldie's house (one of them) , next to Bishopton Station , There must be a "No" in every Window , every car , several in the garden , even one on the bird table ! No wee birds though , they were at the food bank !

[faraway saint]

Can't load pics from my mobile and my laptop's f**ked at the mo, but there's a photo on one of the Yes pages (Aberdeen, iirc, so in your neck of the woods) of coos eating one of those signs......

This was close to Brechin, no big deal, as has been mentioned, plenty of clowns on both sides.

There were no coos in this field, just green stuff, grass I think, I'm not a farmy type.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

So the pound dropped in value because the marcket is getting nervous to the fact a YES vote might win the election while Westminster is saying Scotland can not keep the pound. This was the news on Newsnight last night pointing out it would be in the interest of all in the UK for Scotland to keep the pound in the event of independence.

Now a top NATO doplomat has come out and said Scotland will be welcome into NATO even with Trident removed

Edited September 3, 2014 by Isle Of Bute Saint

[bluto]

The Yes campaign is criticised for invoking the spirit of Braveheart or Bannockburn (falsely, imo, it's usually the No campaign who bring them up) because they happened 700 years ago and aren't relevant to today. Apparently Darien from 300 years ago is relevant, though.

Ok, I see what you were trying to say now, thanks.

The reason I mentioned the Scots Bankruptcy is that the Darien disaster (making Scotland bankrupt) was the MAIN driving cause of Scotland entering into the Union, so yes, it is relevant in the context of the "independence" discussion and to how Scotland has been better together from participating in the Empire that resulted from it.

I see no problem (indeed I suffer from it) in having pride in being a Scot and in getting an emotional charge out of the Braveheart/Bannockburn events, nor is there a problem with recognising the long history of the battle for Scotland remaining an independent country.

It is still an independent country now, within the UK, and will remain so, (even if there was aYes-vote) , within the EU, if it gets in.

[bluto]

You spoke to the lady running the Village Bakery when you were driving through Midlothian? Is it a mobile bakery?

You missed out a word to make a silly unfunny quip.

He was driving through TO Midlothian, can he no stop for a pee or a pie?

[Phil McCracken]

The one good thing about this thread, hopefully, is that its allowed wrangler boy to divert his rage and anger somewhere.

Hopefully nobody in real life was on the receiving last night after his meltdown and the revealing insight behind his rage.

[Wrong Planet]

So the pound dropped in value because the marcket is getting nervous to the fact a YES vote might win the election while Westminster is saying Scotland can not keep the pound. This was the news on Newsnight last night pointing out it would be in the interest of all in the UK for Scotland to keep the pound in the event of independence.

Now a top NATO doplomat has come out and said Scotland will be welcome into NATO even with Trident removed

Come on IOBS, attention to detail my friend.

With your recent faux pas concerning the RBS still fresh, another point of order simply for accuracy. Dame Mariot Leslie (who you are labeling a 'top Nato diplomat') is a former UK ambassador who was a representative to Nato.

Moreover, she was countering comments from former Nato deputy supreme commander General Sir Richard Shirreff who claimed that it was “highly unlikely” Nato would agree to further expansion while the promise of membership made to Ukraine and Georgia in 2008 was still on the table.

It is yet another example of "Oh yes it is" / "Oh no it isn't" being served up by both sides of the debate, to the advantage of no one.

But, at least get the basics right in your posts.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Paterson coup on the M74 extension Glasgow / south Lanarkshire has no thanks signs on it, at least it looked like that from my viewpoint on the carriageway whilst doing, er the speed limit...

I didn't stop to speak to anyone about it and for obvious reasons didn't take a photie.

Im sure there's a subliminal message in the signs and location though!

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Does anyone seriously think that NATO won't have Scotland as a member?

Purely for reasons of geography NATO will welcome Scotland with open arms.

[Wrong Planet]

Does anyone seriously think that NATO won't have Scotland as a member?

Purely for reasons of geography NATO will welcome Scotland with open arms.

Well, yes, former Nato deputy supreme commander General Sir Richard Shirreff. As above.

You did ask Tony.

[Stuart Dickson]

Now a top NATO diplomat has come out and said Scotland will be welcome into NATO even with Trident removed

So that's the Yes Campaign's assertion we wouldn't be forced into any more international conflicts blown out of the window then....

[oaksoft]

food banks? My mother in law has been on benefits for 40 years. She's just back from her annual holiday in turkey and is currently planning her autumn break

2 holidays in a year on benefits?

OK prove it.

Give us the details of exactly what she earns in benefits because I'm calling bullshit on this one.

Edited September 3, 2014 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

Walk around any out of town shopping mall, such as Braehead, see the conspicuous consumption and that would be this culture's counterbalance to the demise of the High Street. People spend more and seem happier shopping in Malls with easy parking for their big flash cars than catching the erratic bus service into town to walk about a dribble of shops, in the rain.... that would be the easy answer to how "things are an improvement".

You and I may regret the demise of the town centres but it would appear that most people are happier, an improvement. They use them.

I am certainly not (never have been) happy with the vast gulf between rich and poor in this society, but I certainly feel that divide and rule is one way for those who do have the power to keep things as unfair and so the September vote is NOT going to shift any of that one iota. London and its power will be unaffected, Capitalism will not even notice. Atlas will not shrug.

Someone else on this thread, this page I believe, discusses food banks in allegedly better examples for Scottish society.

And, sorry, cannae see your sig when posting from a ipad.

Try digging a wee bit deeper.

The vast majority of people do not have either big flashy cars or spend wads of cash in ANY shop.

You are watching a relatively small handful of people when you visit Braehead or wherever.

Those big flashy cars are like the big flashy houses. It's all largely fake.

Both are bought on credit deals. Most of those owning a flashy car are actually simply renting it.

The alternative is to wonder where the hell the sudden influx of earnings came from to explain the sudden invasion of a herd of massive 4x4 monstrosities polluting our roads.

There are £20k to £40k cars everywhere and it happened almost overnight.

Weren't you curious about that?

Don't even get me started on housing.

3 million can't get a home because about 1.5 million have decided to borrow money (which they don't have) to buy more than one house causing a massive artificial and completely avoidable housing shortage which has seen house prices quadruple in just 20 years.

To see why this is a problem imagine instead of houses (a social resource) we were talking about fresh water.

There would be uproar if an artificial water shortage was being caused by people using other people's money to buy water they didn't need just so they could sell it at an inflated price to those who had nothing.

It's a f**king scandalous situation.

I'm in Oxford this week. As an example, an ex-council style house mid terrace is on the market on the outskirts of the town. I've been there. It's a shit hole.

Guess how much?

£450,000.

Nobody has given a single thought to where the street cleaners, the nurses, the hotel staff or anyone else without a house already or sitting on half a million pounds will live.

Where you have that sort of concentration of "wealth" you see huge poverty.

Walk around the city centre in the early evening and you see it everywhere - beggars, people sleeping in shop doorways and misery everywhere.

This is not just London.

It's all over the South of England and it's creeping northwards.

No way do I want Scotland looking as bad as that but we're getting there in some areas already.

The UK is a mess from top to bottom and only independence gives us a CHANCE to sort it.

Not a guarantee.

Not certainty.

A chance.

It's more than we have right now.

Edited September 3, 2014 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

I see that the Yes Campaign has been breaking laws by placing their banners on private land without the permission of the owner and without Planning Permission and that it's earned them a stern rebuke from Electoral Commission. I also noticed last night - when driving through to Midlothian, that the villages of Kilncadzow and Carnwath - which had been blighted by Yes campaign fly posting - has been "cleaned up". The lady running the Village Bakery told me it was locals who took down each one of the posters as they were disgusted at way these posters ruined the village.

I can never understand why political parties, campaigns and politicians use this form of advertising anyway. Has anyone in the world ever been swayed by walking past a lamp post that has some sort of poster on it saying "Yes" or "No".

WGAS

[oaksoft]

So the pound dropped in value because the marcket is getting nervous to the fact a YES vote might win the election while Westminster is saying Scotland can not keep the pound. This was the news on Newsnight last night pointing out it would be in the interest of all in the UK for Scotland to keep the pound in the event of independence.

Now a top NATO doplomat has come out and said Scotland will be welcome into NATO even with Trident removed

I expect the market to cause havoc with the pound sterling if the vote starts to show Scotland ahead.

All down to Osborne and the other ruling out even discussing a CU before the vote.

This may well come back to bite them.

Never shut down a negotiating position before you need to.

It's not a winning tactic. Always keep lines of communication open.