Drew Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Guns don't kill people , people kill people . . People who want guns will always get them . . Gun crime has risen since we banned legally held guns here. . I don't buy this argument at all. A culture of gun ownership being entirely reasonable, and where firearms are readily accessible, can only fuel the belief that their use is tolerated and even expected. Of course it is people who kill, but until we have some unattainable, utopian world in which no-one is sick, damaged, full of hate and bigotry, or just plain stupid, why would we make guns readily accessible? Sorry, Neil, but it is a nonsensical argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosferatu Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I note that Mhari Black was getting in on the act last night. She claims that this was a "total homophobic attack". We now find out today that the gunman may well have been gay himself. Typical of our MP to jump in without knowing all the facts... It seems to me that there were obviously a number of issues going on in the gunman's head. His sexuality, his religion, his family and friends, his culture, society's attitudes towards homosexuality, etc, etc. Personally, to use Owen Jones' viewpoint, I am neither gay nor religious... so I can't possibly understand the effect either would have on my mind. It seems to me that he was mentally ill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted June 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Only an absolute fool would dent that easy access to guns will lead to an increase in gun crime. Check the figures for the US and the UK and come back and justify this utter tripe. South Africa where most whites own guns don't have the American problem of mass murder by guns. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it is right to own a gun but it is an American scocialty problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted June 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I note that Mhari Black was getting in on the act last night. She claims that this was a "total homophobic attack". We now find out today that the gunman may well have been gay himself. Typical of our MP to jump in without knowing all the facts... It seems to me that there were obviously a number of issues going on in the gunman's head. His sexuality, his religion, his family and friends, his culture, society's attitudes towards homosexuality, etc, etc. Personally, to use Owen Jones' viewpoint, I am neither gay nor religious... so I can't possibly understand the effect either would have on my mind. It seems to me that he was mentally ill. Certainly did not take you as a Owen Jones reader Andy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 My personal view is that the American flag should have been flown at half mast over the Glasgow City Chambers and the Scottish Parliament, not the rainbow flag. When the Paris attacks happened, the French flag was flown. Say an aboriginal rights march in Sydney was attacked and 49 people died. That 49 could have been made up of security guards, police, bystanders, and aboriginal people in the march. I would expect Scotland to fly the Australian flag and not merely the black, red and gold aboriginal flag. I feel desperately sorry for the loss of innocent life in Orlando. Gay, straight, bi, security guard, police trying to help, innocent bystanders, or indeed if any Australian aboriginal happened to be in Orlando. Maybe it's me, but I don't identify myself as being Scottish, straight, a St Mirren fan, a golfer, a heavy metal fan, an NFL fan or a ginger. I'm just a person. There may have been some straight punters killed by this maniac. Sure, it took place in a gay club, but (certainly as more and more facts are coming out), for me, the American flag would have been appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 South Africa where most whites own guns don't have the American problem of mass murder by guns. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it is right to own a gun but it is an American scocialty problem. While I can't find figures for mass murder South Africa is 10th in the world for murder by firearms, per 100,000 people, while the USA is 12th. UK is 66th where guns are harder to come by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 While I can't find figures for mass murder South Africa is 10th in the world for murder by firearms, per 100,000 people, while the USA is 12th. UK is 66th where guns are harder to come by. You mean there are 11 countries worse than the USA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 You mean there are 11 countries worse than the USA? Aye, you're quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 You mean there are 11 countries worse than the USA? Probably a few South American countries - Mexico, Columbia etc - in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Is Bute a Country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Probably a few South American countries - Mexico, Columbia etc - in there. Not forgetting Arab and African countries, perhaps dunderheid could post the league table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) Not forgetting Arab and African countries, perhaps dunderheid could post the league table. FFS, don't you know how to work the internet? 1 Honduras 2 Venezuela 3 Swaziland 4 Guatemala 5 Jamaica 6 El Salvador 7 Columbia 8 Brazil 9 Panama 10 South Africa 11 Uruguay 12 USA Don't go to South Africa with IOBS, you'll end up shot. Edited June 14, 2016 by faraway saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Only an absolute fool would deny that easy access to guns will lead to an increase in gun crime. Check the figures for the US and the UK and come back and justify this utter tripe. I don't buy this argument at all. A culture of gun ownership being entirely reasonable, and where firearms are readily accessible, can only fuel the belief that their use is tolerated and even expected. Of course it is people who kill, but until we have some unattainable, utopian world in which no-one is sick, damaged, full of hate and bigotry, or just plain stupid, why would we make guns readily accessible? Sorry, Neil, but it is a nonsensical argument. Guys this is really easy. Simply correlate deaths per capita in each country to the amount of guns available to the populace. You don't need commonsense, guesswork or belief. You simply need to look at the numbers. There will either be a correlation between deaths and gun ownership or there will not. Don't forget to normalise deaths and guns available to per capita or a comparison can't be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 FFS, don't you know how to work the internet? 1 Honduras 2 Venezuela 3 Swaziland 4 Guatemala 5 Jamaica 6 El Salvador 7 Columbia 8 Brazil 9 Panama 10 South Africa 11 Uruguay 12 USA Don't go to South Africa with IOBS, you'll end up shot. Congratulations. You've just proven the square root of nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Guys this is really easy. Simply correlate deaths per capita in each country to the amount of guns available to the populace. You don't need commonsense, guesswork or belief. You simply need to look at the numbers. There will either be a correlation between deaths and gun ownership or there will not. Don't forget to normalise deaths and guns available to per capita or a comparison can't be made. Get away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Get away. Hey if it's too difficult for you then it's too difficult for you. Nobody is judging you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Hey if it's too difficult for you then it's too difficult for you. Nobody is judging you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 FFS, don't you know how to work the internet? I might not know how to work the Internet but I know how to work you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbles old paperboy Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 ImageUploadedByBlack & White Army1465909267.408551.jpg Imagine a social media meme being funny enough but not true. As a Christian / religious person I am saddened and shocked by what happened in Orlando and I don't mind there being rallies where people show solidarity or councils like Aberdeen have had a rainbow-lit HQ last night. I will say that there is never the same outrage and worldwide solidarity when churches are firebombed and there are mass casualities in parts of Africa, middle east, India, Pakistan or Asia... usually it doesn't even make the news never mind being the top story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Agree gun laws in America are crazy problem is so many of the public think it's right to own a gun in the name of defence. See, here is my problem with that statement. If it's true that so many Americans think it's right to own a gun in the name of defence, why were none of the people in that club able to defend themselves by shooting this murderer with the pistols they are obviously all packing? The gun lobby in the US is often ridiculed by us in the UK - yet here is yet another example where their argument holds weight. If everyone was carrying a fire arm there is no way this murderer could have fired off more than his first couple of bullets before being shot dead by at least one person in a crowded nightclub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 See, here is my problem with that statement. If it's true that so many Americans think it's right to own a gun in the name of defence, why were none of the people in that club able to defend themselves by shooting this murderer with the pistols they are obviously all packing? The gun lobby in the US is often ridiculed by us in the UK - yet here is yet another example where their argument holds weight. If everyone was carrying a fire arm there is no way this murderer could have fired off more than his first couple of bullets before being shot dead by at least one person in a crowded nightclub. No-one bite. Seriously, the utter shite this arse talks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 No-one bite. Seriously, the utter shite this arse talks. Ned abusing fellow Buddies. Pathetic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 See, here is my problem with that statement. If it's true that so many Americans think it's right to own a gun in the name of defence, why were none of the people in that club able to defend themselves by shooting this murderer with the pistols they are obviously all packing? The gun lobby in the US is often ridiculed by us in the UK - yet here is yet another example where their argument holds weight. If everyone was carrying a fire arm there is no way this murderer could have fired off more than his first couple of bullets before being shot dead by at least one person in a crowded nightclub. The thought crossed my mind today. If even one of the Stewards, Bar Staff, Management or whoever else had a Firearm,, there may not have been the carnage that happened. The maniac could have been brought down a lot sooner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintnextlifetime Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I don't buy this argument at all. A culture of gun ownership being entirely reasonable, and where firearms are readily accessible, can only fuel the belief that their use is tolerated and even expected. Of course it is people who kill, but until we have some unattainable, utopian world in which no-one is sick, damaged, full of hate and bigotry, or just plain stupid, why would we make guns readily accessible? Sorry, Neil, but it is a nonsensical argument. Perhaps , guns were never quite available in this country as they are in the States but when they banned hand guns and automatics in this country , gun crime went on the increase . So , banning them stopped people getting them legally . Just like locks on doors keep honest people out . . The U.S is 26th in the world for gun crime so it isn't even the worst because the press only tell you what they want you to know . You might remember that in this country there was some psycho going around putting nail bombs in pubs . Was there a ban put on nails ? No , of course not . . I don't own a gun and never have nor am I advocating that everyone should have access to them , Drew . All I'm saying is that a gun ban is not the answer . Do you have any idea how many unlicensed guns are likely to be in the U.S right now ? What happened in that bar in Florida is something you can't really legislate against , you are right about broken minds though. . The solution is a saner society , where people are less likely to be prescribed some mind altering psychotropic or be able access mind altering street drugs for that matter. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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