Lord Pityme Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, Kendo said: The plan was to allow the manager to bring in his players and see how he gets on, was it not? That's how I see it. I get you like Ross and i dont want or need to try and burst that bubble, but c'mon.... what club, rooted to the bottom of their league ever recruits a manager and says his remit is to "see how he gets on"..? my problem with Ross isn't personal,he seems a nice, genuine dedicated bloke, that said so far he hasnt proved to be "better" than we had, or even been challenged to deliver league survival! The only hint of a measure of his performance thus far has been "lets see how he gets on next season".... in any business, commercial, public, private or third sector venture that completely measureless brief would not be sanctioned! Ross like the rest of us needs target and stretch goals to aim for, they need to be realistic, and time bound, not open and seemingly endless. He needs to know he is under pressure to perform, be constantly appraised of his performance with goals reset if appropriate. Its called performance management, give me a couple of hours with him and I will agree realistic goals for this season, how and when they will be reviewed, subsequent action plans including personal development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Soctty said: My requirements for the rest of the season is that we perform well, and win games. As long as I see progress in the play of the team and results, I'm happy for Ross to continue. We've lost once since he gutted the squad, and are unbeaten since he got the new central defender, left back and right back in the team, which is what I'm looking at now. Things are looking brighter in my opinion, and should only improve as the team has more time together. Seems pretty vague to me. As for "should only improve as the team has more time together" - this is 2017, the days of "5 Year Plans" went out with Jimmy Bone and the Soviet Union, if we're in Division 1 next season it'll be all change. How much time will JR get for his new squad to "gel"? Edited February 22, 2017 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Jimmy Bone & the Soviet Union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Seems pretty vague to me. As for "should only improve as the team has more time together" - this is 2017, the days of "5 Year Plans" went out with Jimmy Bone and the Soviet Union, if we're in Division 1 next season it'll be all change. How much time will JR get for his new squad to "gel"? It's going to be vague - I'm not setting him targets as I'm not his boss. [emoji6]As for 5 year plans, I'm thinking more in weeks, but why put a time frame on it? As long as I see progress I'll be quite happy, same as with any manager we've had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, Soctty said: It's going to be vague - I'm not setting him targets as I'm not his boss. As for 5 year plans, I'm thinking more in weeks, but why put a time frame on it? As long as I see progress I'll be quite happy, same as with any manager we've had. Well as I said on P3 if we finish the season in 10th place it's the Gulags for JR & JF! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Well as I said on P3 if we finish the season in 10th place it's the Gulags for JR & JF! Depends on how we play, and results. If we finish a point behind Ayr, having won 6 of our last 13 games, I may have seen enough to keep backing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: I get you like Ross and i dont want or need to try and burst that bubble, but c'mon.... what club, rooted to the bottom of their league ever recruits a manager and says his remit is to "see how he gets on"..? my problem with Ross isn't personal,he seems a nice, genuine dedicated bloke, that said so far he hasnt proved to be "better" than we had, or even been challenged to deliver league survival! The only hint of a measure of his performance thus far has been "lets see how he gets on next season".... in any business, commercial, public, private or third sector venture that completely measureless brief would not be sanctioned! Ross like the rest of us needs target and stretch goals to aim for, they need to be realistic, and time bound, not open and seemingly endless. He needs to know he is under pressure to perform, be constantly appraised of his performance with goals reset if appropriate. Its called performance management, give me a couple of hours with him and I will agree realistic goals for this season, how and when they will be reviewed, subsequent action plans including personal development. I repeat Ross wouldn't have been my selection as manager. However the things he's done to address the weaknesses in the squad seem logical. As for putting people under pressure and expecting them to perform better, I don't agree. Jack Ross is under pressure and no one knows this better than him. He's doing all he can to save us this season hence why 11 new signings in January. If you believe telling him that he's getting sacked if we fail to avoid the drop will make him work any harder then sorry I think you're completely wrong. If we go down then I'm sure that the board will look at this and make a decision based on how well the team improved under his leadership and whether they believe he's the right man to take us straight back up. If they keep him he'll have a clear remit from the board for next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 12 minutes ago, Soctty said: Depends on how we play, and results. If we finish a point behind Ayr, having win 6 of our last 13 games, I may have seen enough to keep backing him. Are you saying that if we finish more than one point behind Ayr you'd sack him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Are you saying that if we finish more than one point behind Ayr you'd sack him? Nope. I'm giving an example of a scenario where he might reasonably be assessed as having improved the team's performance with a team he has built.How we do now in terms of staying up is also dependent on how Ayr, Dumbarton and Raith do. We could do very well from here on in and still go down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, Kendo said: I repeat Ross wouldn't have been my selection as manager. However the things he's done to address the weaknesses in the squad seem logical. As for putting people under pressure and expecting them to perform better, I don't agree. Jack Ross is under pressure and no one knows this better than him. He's doing all he can to save us this season hence why 11 new signings in January. If you believe telling him that he's getting sacked if we fail to avoid the drop will make him work any harder then sorry I think you're completely wrong. If we go down then I'm sure that the board will look at this and make a decision based on how well the team improved under his leadership and whether they believe he's the right man to take us straight back up. If they keep him he'll have a clear remit from the board for next season. You see there is the point, I and most others havent, or are not calling on him to be sacked, but the people who say he shouldn't be are the ones referencing it. Why is that? i say he should only have got the job if he was better than the guy they sacked, and that the club!!! Had an option to extend his contract, or not at the end of the season, with a minimum or target goal of staying in this league. All that ensures the pressure we all have to perform is their for Jack and us all to see. we are all under pressure to perform, why would/should Ross be any different. The difference in my approach it would appear is if the club did decide after relegation to terminate his contract it wouldnt cost anything. If he stays on next season like Rae in League one and has no wins in Six.... will the board have made a rod for their own back and be pissing more money down the loo to get rid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Soctty said: Nope. I'm giving an example of a scenario where he might reasonably be assessed as having improved the team's performance with a team he has built. How we do now in terms of staying up is also dependent on how Ayr, Dumbarton and Raith do. We could do very well from here on in and still go down. You're just a tease............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Bud the Baker said: You're just a tease............. Whatever floats yer boat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: You see there is the point, I and most others havent, or are not calling on him to be sacked, but the people who say he shouldn't be are the ones referencing it. Why is that? i say he should only have got the job if he was better than the guy they sacked, and that the club!!! Had an option to extend his contract, or not at the end of the season, with a minimum or target goal of staying in this league. All that ensures the pressure we all have to perform is their for Jack and us all to see. we are all under pressure to perform, why would/should Ross be any different. The difference in my approach it would appear is if the club did decide after relegation to terminate his contract it wouldnt cost anything. If he stays on next season like Rae in League one and has no wins in Six.... will the board have made a rod for their own back and be pissing more money down the loo to get rid? Do you really believe Jack Ross isn't under pressure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Lothian Saint Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) This thread is getting a bit repetitive now it’s degenerated in to a Civil war. A Ross v Gus Thread where two distinctive camps have gathered. The rebellion is being plotted. Sack the Tyrant manager who thinks he’s invincible and come the revolution TC, FS, BtB and all Gus’s other henchman will be on a witch hunt and dragging Kendo, IOBS, myself and any other who put their heads above the parapet and pleaded for some stability off to the guillotine. Maybe we should call in the UN. Boutros Boutros Ghali or Kofi Annan could broker a cease fire which would stop all the pot shots and the incessant sniping that has become the general tactic of this thread that has become battleground JR must go. If it holds the cease fire will no doubt end at some point probably between 3pm and 4.45pm on Saturday. As a parting shot can I just add. We in The JR camp are not judging him by his record so far. Feck we’d be on your side if we did that. We see potential and we are willing to give him time. There goes the cease fire!!!! Edited February 22, 2017 by East Lothian Saint Sniping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northstbuddie Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Unbelievable (yet again maybe not) that there are 'supporters' on here who appear to be more obsessed with getting the manager sacked at this time just a couple of weeks after he has brought in 11 players to address the glaring weaknesses which JR inherited, than in commenting on one of the most crucial games in our history this Saturday. In terms of points won since his arrival most of us agree that we had hoped for better but WHO would have been guaranteed to be more successful in that time given that the players inherited by JR were the most imbalanced and demotivated bunch of individuals that I have ever witnessed in St Mirren jerseys? Not one area of the team was functioning properly - from defence to midfield (especially) to attack. The extent of this systematic rot, stretching over several seasons, was such that no manager IMO would have done much better. It is too early to judge the effectiveness of the action taken by JR to rectify the situation but as they say 'Rome was not built in a day'. What I have witnessed in the past couple of weeks is a team which at long last has the potential and the ability to get us out of this mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeBud Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: You see there is the point, I and most others havent, or are not calling on him to be sacked, but the people who say he shouldn't be are the ones referencing it. Why is that? i say he should only have got the job if he was better than the guy they sacked, and that the club!!! Had an option to extend his contract, or not at the end of the season, with a minimum or target goal of staying in this league. All that ensures the pressure we all have to perform is their for Jack and us all to see. we are all under pressure to perform, why would/should Ross be any different. The difference in my approach it would appear is if the club did decide after relegation to terminate his contract it wouldnt cost anything. If he stays on next season like Rae in League one and has no wins in Six.... will the board have made a rod for their own back and be pissing more money down the loo to get rid? Don't really disagree LPM but I don't believe any of us know what conversations re "expectations" etc have gone on between GLS and Jack Ross or what the consequences for the current management team may be should they not realise the board's expectations. There has certainly been rhetoric around about our situation but what business truly opens itself to having those conversations in public. With regards to the so-called "JR's team" I would consider that the Dunfermline away draw as the start of seeing his players on the park. I have been at every game since and with the exception of Falkirk at home I'd say we've done OK, no better and no worse. That would be 3 wins, two away draws (to teams in reasonable form) and a disappointing home loss but in general and OK return and certainly a lot better than what had gone before it. Edited February 22, 2017 by WeeBud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 30 minutes ago, Kendo said: Do you really believe Jack Ross isn't under pressure? I knòw he is, and that is healthy, as it is for us all. It was you that suggested his performance would be hampered by being under pressure... so I don't get your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: I knòw he is, and that is healthy, as it is for us all. It was you that suggested his performance would be hampered by being under pressure... so I don't get your point? Let's leave it there then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 17 minutes ago, WeeBud said: Don't really disagree LPM but I don't believe any of us know what conversations re "expectations" etc have gone on between GLS and Jack Ross or what the consequences for the current management team may be should they not realise the board's expectations. There has certainly been rhetoric around about our situation but what business truly opens itself to having those conversations in public. With regards to the so-called "JR's team" I would consider that Dunfermline away draw as the start of seeing his players on the park. I have been at every game since and with the exception of Falkirk at home I'd say we've done OK, no better and no worse. That would be 3 wins, two away draws (to teams in reasonable form) and a disappointing home loss but in general and OK return and certainly a lot better than what had gone before it. GS declared publicly Ross would still be here next season even if we were relegated, which I presume indicates there is no get out clause for the club if he guides us as he did Alloa. Unless GS is just saying what some want to hear? Hopefully not. the rest regarding whose team, where, when etc is largely redundant now, the guy has had six months to get his message and method across. We have to win on Saturday to give us a chance, and who knows? help set us up for a fruitful hectic schedule in the next few weeks. That is after all what we all want, then we can forget all the other whataboutery. unfortunately, lose or draw and the pain drags slowly on until our fate is arithmetically sealed. I choose the former! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, northstbuddie said: Unbelievable (yet again maybe not) that there are 'supporters' on here who appear to be more obsessed with getting the manager sacked at this time just a couple of weeks after he has brought in 11 players to address the glaring weaknesses which JR inherited, than in commenting on one of the most crucial games in our history this Saturday. In terms of points won since his arrival most of us agree that we had hoped for better but WHO would have been guaranteed to be more successful in that time given that the players inherited by JR were the most imbalanced and demotivated bunch of individuals that I have ever witnessed in St Mirren jerseys? Not one area of the team was functioning properly - from defence to midfield (especially) to attack. The extent of this systematic rot, stretching over several seasons, was such that no manager IMO would have done much better. It is too early to judge the effectiveness of the action taken by JR to rectify the situation but as they say 'Rome was not built in a day'. What I have witnessed in the past couple of weeks is a team which at long last has the potential and the ability to get us out of this mess. I'm not reading that, maybe you're seeing something that isn't there. I'm getting that there is, at some point, a point where our current managers performance is assessed rather than, and this is what I'm reading, no accountability while we meander towards a lower league position than we have been for some time. This point I think is critical as previous managers have been poor/underperforming at a higher level. (AR being the exception but still kept us in this league) I also don't see a "Gus v JR" competition, mentioned elsewhere, just some supporters who are concerned about our immediate, and long term future. PS Also does "supporters" suggest it's only real supporters who are happy with our current situation? Edited February 22, 2017 by faraway saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, faraway saint said: I'm not reading that, maybe you're seeing something that isn't there. I'm getting that there is, at some point, a point where our current managers performance is assessed rather than, and this is what I'm reading, no accountability while we meander towards a lower league position than we have been for some time. This point I think is critical as previous managers have been poor/underperforming at a higher level. (AR being the exception but still kept us in this league) I also don't see a "Gus v JR" competition, mentioned elsewhere, just some supporters who are concerned about our immediate, and long term future. Not sure why you're not reading that, the clue is in the title of the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 43 minutes ago, East Lothian Saint said: This thread is getting a bit repetitive now it’s degenerated in to a Civil war. A Ross v Gus Thread where two distinctive camps have gathered. The rebellion is being plotted. Sack the Tyrant manager who thinks he’s invincible and come the revolution TC, FS, BtB and all Gus’s other henchman will be on a witch hunt and dragging Kendo, IOBS, myself and any other who put their heads above the parapet and pleaded for some stability off to the guillotine. Maybe we should call in the UN. Boutros Boutros Ghali or Kofi Annan could broker a cease fire which would stop all the pot shots and the incessant sniping that has become the general tactic of this thread that has become battleground JR must go. If it holds the cease fire will no doubt end at some point probably between 3pm and 4.45pm on Saturday. As a parting shot can I just add. We in The JR camp are not judging him by his record so far. Feck we’d be on your side if we did that. We see potential and we are willing to give him time. There goes the cease fire!!!! Where have I defended MacPherson on this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, Kendo said: Not sure why you're not reading that, the clue is in the title of the thread. You really should give up trying to be smart, it really isn't working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windae cleaner Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 3 hours ago, munoz said: With our one of our most important games in many a year this Saturday , I find it very odd that this seems to be a busy thread , as opposed to the Ayr match day thread . Perhaps some just can't wait to sharpen their knives . Aye the Steels and grinding stones are at the ready Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, windae cleaner said: Aye the Steels and grinding stones are at the ready I think its more a case of everyone knowing how much is riding on this fixture! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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