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St.Ricky

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1 hour ago, Doakes said:

I think Stephen McGinn plays far better when someone is there beside him to do the dirty work. Magennis does that very well, I think having Kyle McAllister nearby will be a big boost.. Not sure yet on Tansey, he let his man go against Alloa on a few occasions - hopefully just finding his feet. Would like to see Erhahon play defensive mid, feel that would release McGinn a bit and let him do the things he is good at

Tansey will come good, lacking match sharpness but it will come.

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I think people are being harsh on S.McGinn. The last time we were in the SPL we had the likes of Hugh Murray, Gary Mason and Jim Goodwin taking up the defensive side of things. We haven’t had that since Goody left. People are looking at McGinn and the rest to do that, but that’s not their strength. We need to bring in someone who can do that side of the game, who is used it to and does it effectively.

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2 minutes ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

I think people are being harsh on S.McGinn. The last time we were in the SPL we had the likes of Hugh Murray, Gary Mason and Jim Goodwin taking up the defensive side of things. We haven’t had that since Goody left. People are looking at McGinn and the rest to do that, but that’s not their strength. We need to bring in someone who can do that side of the game, who is used it to and does it effectively.

I was literally about to add this as an afterthought to my initial post. 100% agree, we've been labouring without a proper DM for a few years now. You can get away with it in the Championship by being on the front foot. 

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1 hour ago, shull said:

And along with the Village Idiot, you accuse somebody of racism with no evidence whatsoever. 

That makes you a fud. 

Not I Shull. I disagree with you on two things. One..the old firm and Two..The cost of football.  Apart from that I enjoy your posts. Actually, I enjoy the F Man's too when he keeps away from malingning people's mental health. Would dislike anybody doing that. The big difference is that these things are personal for you both. Not for me. 

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We were a lot better with Hodson in midfield to do the defensive role, allowing McGinn to be more effective further up the park.

Stephen McGinn is one of our best players but is not a defensive midfielder. We need someone else to do that role.

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3 hours ago, bazil85 said:

The Alloa strikers were turning him inside pretty much all game. He's played much better than he did on Saturday that's for sure. Would be bringing Ferdinand in tonight for sure. 

When you say the Alloa strikers, don't you mean the fact that our midfield failed to track back and cover and that led to both our CB's being exposed - trying to be in the right position between more than 1 opposition player time and time again?

How tight should our CB get on 1 player when the gaping holes are there that allow another player to waltz right through?

Anyway - two points.

1. He is in the team regularly as he is every season under every manager. He is not perfect but for his ability/fitness etc. He is our longest continuous signed player currently.

2. Neither goal on Saturday was a result of a CB error or a goal keeping error ! both from midfield runners...

The 1st Goal Hodson loses his man and S McGinn is trotting back with no one . . The 2nd the scorers waltzes past "Tansey" I think squad No. 22

Edited by Sweeper07
added last line

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18 minutes ago, Sweeper07 said:

When you say the Alloa strikers, don't you mean the fact that our midfield failed to track back and cover and that led to both our CB's being exposed - trying to be in the right position between more than 1 opposition player time and time again?

How tight should our CB get on 1 player when the gaping holes are there that allow another player to waltz right through?

Anyway - two points.

1. He is in the team regularly as he is every season under every manager. He is not perfect but for his ability/fitness etc. He is our longest continuous signed player currently.

2. Neither goal on Saturday was a result of a CB error or a goal keeping error ! both from midfield runners...

The 1st Goal Hodson loses his man and S McGinn is trotting back with no one . . The 2nd the scorers waltzes past "Tansey" I think squad No. 22

No, I mean Jack Baird looked inept up against part-time strikers. He was beaten on several occasions. As mentioned earlier as well, his distribution and placement was very poor (although this has always been the case throughout his career) 

Point 1. Jack Baird was our third choice CB last season, if Mac and Davis were fit they played. Him being in the team this season is one of many signs Stubbs did not improve a number of positions on the park for a tougher league. I feel if Ferdinand and Popescu stay fit, we will likely go for that pairing. Baird has improved but he's far from SP quality. 

Point 2. Correct, it doesn't change the fact that he had a poor game and part-time Alloa not capitalising on that doesn't excuse the performance. 

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2 hours ago, Sonny said:

Stephen McGinn and Kyle Magennis are the best midfielders we have at the club by some distance. Unfortunately Stephen has had to do it on his own this season while Kyle is injured. He cannot track back in place of all 4 midfielders. Against Alloa they were ripping the pish out of our left as Flynn was nowhere to be seen.  Watch the highlights again at the chances Alloa made down the left. And watch Tansey for the two goals where he loses Trouten then Cawley for them both to score. McGinn isn't Messi however some seem to like having a pop at him. He set up two goals on Saturday - something no other midfielder does on a semi-regular basis. Are Edwards, Willock, McShane, Flynn, Hodson all better at tracking back? - I don't think so. Stephen McGinn may not be the best but he is by far the best we have.

Very relieved to have seen this post. Not everyone is going crazy!

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1 minute ago, bazil85 said:

No, I mean Jack Baird looked inept up against part-time strikers. He was beaten on several occasions. As mentioned earlier as well, his distribution and placement was very poor (although this has always been the case throughout his career) 

Point 1. Jack Baird was our third choice CB last season, if Mac and Davis were fit they played. Him being in the team this season is one of many signs Stubbs did not improve a number of positions on the park for a tougher league. I feel if Ferdinand and Popescu stay fit, we will likely go for that pairing. Baird has improved but he's far from SP quality. 

Point 2. Correct, it doesn't change the fact that he had a poor game and part-time Alloa not capitalising on that doesn't excuse the performance. 

Your digging up past stuff that you were wrong about previously . . I get you don't like Baird - that's your opinion - so the mangers must all have been wrong to play him so regularly then?

Your point I highlighted is FACTUALLY wrong - MacKenzie was on the bench when he was fit on a lot of occasions and Baird was playing. Baird also played with a fit Davis on the bench too. AND Baird actually played just less than both of them combined during our Championship winning season.

He will also play tonight in a back 3 (What is Oran thinking?)

So you agree with my second point that the guys who cost us the goals are NOT getting the criticism you are doling out to BAIRD...  :exclaim

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Just now, Sweeper07 said:

Your digging up past stuff that you were wrong about previously . . I get you don't like Baird - that's your opinion - so the mangers must all have been wrong to play him so regularly then?

Your point I highlighted is FACTUALLY wrong - MacKenzie was on the bench when he was fit on a lot of occasions and Baird was playing. Baird also played with a fit Davis on the bench too. AND Baird actually played just less than both of them combined during our Championship winning season.

He will also play tonight in a back 3 (What is Oran thinking?)

So you agree with my second point that the guys who cost us the goals are NOT getting the criticism you are doling out to BAIRD...  :exclaim

In what way am I wrong that Mac and Davis were our first choice CB pairing last season, they had been since Davis signed? 

Saying I 'don't like' Baird is just completely incorrect. I would love him to have developed and reached his potential but he simply hasn't. As for all the managers picking him, again there is a caveat you're not seeing/ denying.

His first full season in the Championship - We were shocking, he was far from the worst but few players covered themselves in glory 

Second & third season - Much the same at the start, in January 2017 Davis signed and from that point up until this season, if fit the preferred partnership was Mac and Davis. How you can deny this I don't know. Baird played often due to default with the injuries Mac and Davis suffered

This season - Alan Stubbs did not improve a single position on the Championship winning team, I think that is clear given only three of his signings are still available for selection currently. With Mac injury and Davis leaving, Baird competition came from Jones, the truly awful Kpekawa and unimpressive Heaton. When Ferdinand came in, OK took some time to see his preferred pairing but again the decision was often made for him with Ferdinand getting injured and now with Jones going back. He is playing through default not because he's a better option than what we had last season now.   

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11 minutes ago, Sweeper07 said:

Your digging up past stuff that you were wrong about previously . . I get you don't like Baird - that's your opinion - so the mangers must all have been wrong to play him so regularly then?

Your point I highlighted is FACTUALLY wrong - MacKenzie was on the bench when he was fit on a lot of occasions and Baird was playing. Baird also played with a fit Davis on the bench too. AND Baird actually played just less than both of them combined during our Championship winning season.

He will also play tonight in a back 3 (What is Oran thinking?)

So you agree with my second point that the guys who cost us the goals are NOT getting the criticism you are doling out to BAIRD...  :exclaim

I think Baird's on a sticky wicket as we move on. Have we offered him a new deal yet ? McKenzie/Davis was the preferred partnership under JR , injuries or tactics decided if Baird was involved. Worth also bearing in mind that Oran has also dropped Baird this season. I don't think anyone involved sees him as a long-term solution , he simply hasn't developed into the Premiership quality defender that we all hoped he would !

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32 minutes ago, Sweeper07 said:

Your digging up past stuff that you were wrong about previously . . I get you don't like Baird - that's your opinion - so the mangers must all have been wrong to play him so regularly then?

Your point I highlighted is FACTUALLY wrong - MacKenzie was on the bench when he was fit on a lot of occasions and Baird was playing. Baird also played with a fit Davis on the bench too. AND Baird actually played just less than both of them combined during our Championship winning season.

He will also play tonight in a back 3 (What is Oran thinking?)

So you agree with my second point that the guys who cost us the goals are NOT getting the criticism you are doling out to BAIRD...  :exclaim

And yes, the players that cost the goals deserve criticism, I was simply responding to a point on Baird.

Much like if someone asked me what I think the score would be tonight, I wouldn't say '-it's -2 and I'm freezing' I wouldn't say something irrelevant about a point made on Jack Baird. 

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2 hours ago, shull said:

And along with the Village Idiot, you accuse somebody of racism with no evidence whatsoever. 

That makes you a fud. 

The 45 or 78 has a scratch on it and keeps getting stuck at the same place............................................ :rolleyes:

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24 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

In what way am I wrong that Mac and Davis were our first choice CB pairing last season, they had been since Davis signed? 

Saying I 'don't like' Baird is just completely incorrect. I would love him to have developed and reached his potential but he simply hasn't. As for all the managers picking him, again there is a caveat you're not seeing/ denying.

His first full season in the Championship - We were shocking, he was far from the worst but few players covered themselves in glory 

Second & third season - Much the same at the start, in January 2017 Davis signed and from that point up until this season, if fit the preferred partnership was Mac and Davis. How you can deny this I don't know. Baird played often due to default with the injuries Mac and Davis suffered

This season - Alan Stubbs did not improve a single position on the Championship winning team, I think that is clear given only three of his signings are still available for selection currently. With Mac injury and Davis leaving, Baird competition came from Jones, the truly awful Kpekawa and unimpressive Heaton. When Ferdinand came in, OK took some time to see his preferred pairing but again the decision was often made for him with Ferdinand getting injured and now with Jones going back. He is playing through default not because he's a better option than what we had last season now.   

Your jury are almost returning with a verdict according to the above post, in that you just don't think he is going to cut it at this level.

If you look back at some of the younger central defenders we have had on our books they often developed with a good mature calming influence beside him and to help him develop his skills.

Jack Baird is 22 years of age and so far in his time at Saints I wouldn't have said that there has ever truly been that calming influence next to him sufficiently to help that development. Yes Davis was here last year and now we have AF who I get the impression is helping a lot behind the scenes and may well give him many pointers in where he can improve.

Popescu had a reasonable game on Saturday and I also thought that JB was pretty assured and hardly at fault for either of the goals, and as others have said was let down by a less than efficient midfield.

I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that with both Anton and MP around he will now begin to build that confidence. Rome wasn't built in a day and many players (like most males) don't mature until their mid to late 20's! :unsure:

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31 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

In what way am I wrong that Mac and Davis were our first choice CB pairing last season, they had been since Davis signed? 

He is playing through default not because he's a better option than what we had last season now.   

26 minutes ago, billyg said:

I think Baird's on a sticky wicket as we move on. Have we offered him a new deal yet ? McKenzie/Davis was the preferred partnership under JR , injuries or tactics decided if Baird was involved. Worth also bearing in mind that Oran has also dropped Baird this season. I don't think anyone involved sees him as a long-term solution , he simply hasn't developed into the Premiership quality defender that we all hoped he would !

 

I won't go trawling through all the games once more - I did previously and posted the FACTS concerning which CB's played and who was benched during our Championship winning Season. But the FACTS were MacKenzie warmed the bench when Baird was picked far more than the other way round. You can argue he was returning from injury etc but you can only make presumptions as to why...

Towards the end of the season it did appear that JR preferred MacKenzie/Davis - but you do not know what injury niggles Baird was carrying! But you are happy to assert that Baird got to play through default when MacK was recovering...

We are not at this stage trying to tie up guys we have like Baird for next season... its the transfer window that is our current focus and Oran is bringing in who he can get - some of whom will be deals till the end of this season , while others will get longer contracts. Guys like McGinn and Baird will either be offered a new deal later or not, depending on what Oran thinks is best. I won't pre-judge his decision, but time will answer this. 

Did Oran drop Baird because he was wanting to give everyone, including Jones a chance, because Baird was playing badly, or was he perhaps carrying an injury/niggle? - it is too easy just to make assumptions.

I make no apologies for defending him, because he is a really good lad; 100% committed to ST. Mirren, is fit far more than all the other CB's we have had for years, and although his distribution is a weaker part of his game, his defending is a lot better than most people on the forum give him credit for. His blocks and reading of the game are really good most of the time, AND he is often left in that place of having a man to mark plus a runner from midfield who has lost his marker. No CB can mark 2 people perfectly - he and our other defenders have to make split second decisions how to defend these situations. It is also worth bearing in mind that once Jones started to perform at a reasonably decent level, Oran found a place for all 3 of our CB's - mm  :spud7

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47 minutes ago, The Original 59er said:

Your jury are almost returning with a verdict according to the above post, in that you just don't think he is going to cut it at this level.

If you look back at some of the younger central defenders we have had on our books they often developed with a good mature calming influence beside him and to help him develop his skills.

Jack Baird is 22 years of age and so far in his time at Saints I wouldn't have said that there has ever truly been that calming influence next to him sufficiently to help that development. Yes Davis was here last year and now we have AF who I get the impression is helping a lot behind the scenes and may well give him many pointers in where he can improve.

Popescu had a reasonable game on Saturday and I also thought that JB was pretty assured and hardly at fault for either of the goals, and as others have said was let down by a less than efficient midfield.

I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that with both Anton and MP around he will now begin to build that confidence. Rome wasn't built in a day and many players (like most males) don't mature until their mid to late 20's! :unsure:

I take this point, I really do but at 22 I don't think he's made enough progress since he was breaking into the team 3 or 4 years ago. I have seen signs last season and this of him getting steadily better but it's (IMO) not close to enough. He's played beside Mac, Davis, Webster, Ferdinand to name a few in his short career and I would expect better for him to be a long-term CB reliable option at the club. That is a lot of experience so I don't really take that he hasn't had the support. 

He wasn't at fault at either goal but he was left wanting at what in reality, and with all due respect, was a low level Scottish Championship/ high level L1 team. 

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1 hour ago, The Original 59er said:

The 45 or 78 has a scratch on it and keeps getting stuck at the same place............................................ :rolleyes:

Still waiting on evidence from the pair of pricks. Both accuse me of racism with no proof. They are allowed the freedom of the Forum. 

As we have no moderation. 

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Just now, shull said:

Still waiting on evidence from the pair of pricks. Both accuse me of racism with no proof. They are allowed the freedom of the Forum. 

As we have no moderation. 

Shull. I can't answer for DJ but I have never accused you of being racist. Anti old firm.. Yes.  I've no time for either in the sectarian stuff but still recognise that there are a lot of decent fans of each.  The worst I have done is to ask you to compare your attitudes to the OF to those. Clubs in England which started with an IrishFan base and ask why you seem to have no problems with these.  Same in Scotland with Hibs and Dundee Hibernian (United).   Apart from this subject, I take a different view from you on the cost of tickets.  That apart.. As I've said,  I enjoy your contributions as do I enjoy Faraway's when he's not challenging other people's mental health.  That I hate to see anybody do. 

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25 minutes ago, Sweeper07 said:

I won't go trawling through all the games once more - I did previously and posted the FACTS concerning which CB's played and who was benched during our Championship winning Season. But the FACTS were MacKenzie warmed the bench when Baird was picked far more than the other way round. You can argue he was returning from injury etc but you can only make presumptions as to why...

Towards the end of the season it did appear that JR preferred MacKenzie/Davis - but you do not know what injury niggles Baird was carrying! But you are happy to assert that Baird got to play through default when MacK was recovering...

We are not at this stage trying to tie up guys we have like Baird for next season... its the transfer window that is our current focus and Oran is bringing in who he can get - some of whom will be deals till the end of this season , while others will get longer contracts. Guys like McGinn and Baird will either be offered a new deal later or not, depending on what Oran thinks is best. I won't pre-judge his decision, but time will answer this. 

Did Oran drop Baird because he was wanting to give everyone, including Jones a chance, because Baird was playing badly, or was he perhaps carrying an injury/niggle? - it is too easy just to make assumptions.

I make no apologies for defending him, because he is a really good lad; 100% committed to ST. Mirren, is fit far more than all the other CB's we have had for years, and although his distribution is a weaker part of his game, his defending is a lot better than most people on the forum give him credit for. His blocks and reading of the game are really good most of the time, AND he is often left in that place of having a man to mark plus a runner from midfield who has lost his marker. No CB can mark 2 people perfectly - he and our other defenders have to make split second decisions how to defend these situations. It is also worth bearing in mind that once Jones started to perform at a reasonably decent level, Oran found a place for all 3 of our CB's - mm  :spud7

You don't have to trawl through the games, it is simply fact that when Mac and Davis were fit (and we weren't playing on a dodgy pitch) that was JR's preferred pairing. Baird did keep Mac out the team for a short period but it was him returning from injury and Baird playing relatively well (I have never denied he has had good games and good spells). You can deny Mac was coming back from injury but it would be a very thin case given how well Davis and Mac did in the games they played together. 

You are just making assumptions to fit your case that Baird was injured, even though it was never reported, he was still on the bench and Mac and Davis partnership was very solid. (including breaking a clean sheet club record). I base Mac and Davis being the choice partnership because it was clearly the strongest partnership of that period. I'm baffled anyone can disagree on this. 

Baird is free to talk to other clubs right now. It's hardly a situation we would have an important player in if we could avoid it. Both McGinns are contracted to 2020 I believe, players like Magennis, Erhahon and even Macpherson who hasn't played much are contracted to at least 2020. Why not Baird? Again you have to make some major assumptions here to protect why we're happy for him to talk to other clubs. Baird might be a year or two older but my understanding is we have never given him more than a 2 year deal, why would we for other players and not him if he's so highly rated?

OK's opinion of Baird is certainly TBC. Again see the point about how weak Stubbs made the team and options. 

Baird has been a great servant, is certainly one of our fittest players consistently and gives 100% for the jersey. You seem to be confusing comments about his ability for his likeability. As for comments on his man marking ad blocking, it's almost like we're talking about different players because he isn't strong in those areas either. 

 

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44 minutes ago, Sweeper07 said:

I won't go trawling through all the games once more - I did previously and posted the FACTS concerning which CB's played and who was benched during our Championship winning Season. But the FACTS were MacKenzie warmed the bench when Baird was picked far more than the other way round. You can argue he was returning from injury etc but you can only make presumptions as to why...

Towards the end of the season it did appear that JR preferred MacKenzie/Davis - but you do not know what injury niggles Baird was carrying! But you are happy to assert that Baird got to play through default when MacK was recovering...

We are not at this stage trying to tie up guys we have like Baird for next season... its the transfer window that is our current focus and Oran is bringing in who he can get - some of whom will be deals till the end of this season , while others will get longer contracts. Guys like McGinn and Baird will either be offered a new deal later or not, depending on what Oran thinks is best. I won't pre-judge his decision, but time will answer this. 

Did Oran drop Baird because he was wanting to give everyone, including Jones a chance, because Baird was playing badly, or was he perhaps carrying an injury/niggle? - it is too easy just to make assumptions.

I make no apologies for defending him, because he is a really good lad; 100% committed to ST. Mirren, is fit far more than all the other CB's we have had for years, and although his distribution is a weaker part of his game, his defending is a lot better than most people on the forum give him credit for. His blocks and reading of the game are really good most of the time, AND he is often left in that place of having a man to mark plus a runner from midfield who has lost his marker. No CB can mark 2 people perfectly - he and our other defenders have to make split second decisions how to defend these situations. It is also worth bearing in mind that once Jones started to perform at a reasonably decent level, Oran found a place for all 3 of our CB's - mm  :spud7

Good post. Mackenzie played the whole match against QOS on 23rd December due to Harry not being risked on a 3G pitch, then was benched for two months. Surely if he'd been fit he would have played at least some part of the intervening 7 games?

Anyway, I agree that Baird is far better than given credit for, but it will always be the way that some fans need a scapegoat, and that when they've chosen one those same types of fan will refuse to change their stance.

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2 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

You don't have to trawl through the games, it is simply fact that when Mac and Davis were fit (and we weren't playing on a dodgy pitch) that was JR's preferred pairing. Baird did keep Mac out the team for a short period but it was him returning from injury and Baird playing relatively well (I have never denied he has had good games and good spells). You can deny Mac was coming back from injury but it would be a very thin case given how well Davis and Mac did in the games they played together. 

You are just making assumptions to fit your case that Baird was injured, even though it was never reported, he was still on the bench and Mac and Davis partnership was very solid. (including breaking a clean sheet club record). I base Mac and Davis being the choice partnership because it was clearly the strongest partnership of that period. I'm baffled anyone can disagree on this. 

Baird is free to talk to other clubs right now. It's hardly a situation we would have an important player in if we could avoid it. Both McGinns are contracted to 2020 I believe, players like Magennis, Erhahon and even Macpherson who hasn't played much are contracted to at least 2020. Why not Baird? Again you have to make some major assumptions here to protect why we're happy for him to talk to other clubs. Baird might be a year or two older but my understanding is we have never given him more than a 2 year deal, why would we for other players and not him if he's so highly rated?

OK's opinion of Baird is certainly TBC. Again see the point about how weak Stubbs made the team and options. 

Baird has been a great servant, is certainly one of our fittest players consistently and gives 100% for the jersey. You seem to be confusing comments about his ability for his likeability. As for comments on his man marking ad blocking, it's almost like we're talking about different players because he isn't strong in those areas either. 

 

Last game of tennis on this one for me (you can if you like have the last say)

1. The FACTS I trawled through previously shows it was not only MacK injury that kept him out of the 1st team. He also had some ropey games early on like the one against the Soap dodgers too - had Davis been fit at that time - he would have surely lost his place then too. But I do take some of your points on board.

2. It is not common to report all minor injuries to the press - the player, physio and the manager often know, but it is not always shared and with few other options, the player is willing to be on the bench.

3. We are in the most serious transition period for a very long time. Oran and the BOD have a budget to manage. Offering improved contracts will remove some of the funds at their disposal. So if they want to keep guys like Baird or S. McGinn (I think his deal is up in the summer as well), they will be telling them so and that talks will begin on whatever date they decide. Yes of course we could lose them, but their heart is here and if they are offered a decent contract, that will be a big factor in their decision. Point to note - Baird and his agent only wanted a 1 year deal. He is not a guy who wants to be picking up a wage and not playing.. this was also a factor for sure when the 2 CB's were playing regularly - JR wanted to get them both tied up in new contracts too. I believe that he would have kept all 3 for this season had he remained.

4. I have no idea if you played football, and if so at what level, or if you were a central defender - I did, professionally and did play CB for most of my career. I am not trying to points score with you though, but I do know about defending at a good level. Baird is a lot better than you think I believe - but I get that you don't - we are both entitled to our opinions and some folk may agree with us on each side . . . there are more important things to spend our time on . . .

Do you think he will be dropped for tonight OR will Oran find a berth for all 3 CB?  

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43 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

Shull. I can't answer for DJ but I have never accused you of being racist. Anti old firm.. Yes.  I've no time for either in the sectarian stuff but still recognise that there are a lot of decent fans of each.  The worst I have done is to ask you to compare your attitudes to the OF to those. Clubs in England which started with an IrishFan base and ask why you seem to have no problems with these.  Same in Scotland with Hibs and Dundee Hibernian (United).   Apart from this subject, I take a different view from you on the cost of tickets.  That apart.. As I've said,  I enjoy your contributions as do I enjoy Faraway's when he's not challenging other people's mental health.  That I hate to see anybody do. 

You talk so much shite. 

There is no comparison to Sevco2012 and Celtic in British Football. 

They are scum and so are their fans. 

And if the majority of the fans are decent why don't they sort out the filth among them. 

Why don't the Clubs sort them ? 

Now sod off. 

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