Cookie Monster Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 Yet you continue to suggest that its only the colour black that should matter. And there are many white people, even in this country, who have been put upon. For a while the Polish community were abused for "stealing our jobs". Solidarity is precisely why we should NOT highlight one particular section of humanity.Whilst you and Slarti are making valid points, you and he are not the problem as in the racists that are.It is because of the racists that the need to highlight the folk with a slogan/group that have been targeted is required.Every decent person knows that all lives matter or black lives matter too. Let's not get to bothered with a few words or terms and concentrate on the actual problem, racists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 39 minutes ago, stlucifer said: Yet you continue to suggest that its only the colour black that should matter. And there are many white people, even in this country, who have been put upon. For a while the Polish community were abused for "stealing our jobs". Solidarity is precisely why we should NOT highlight one particular section of humanity. I've always been a great fan of Solidarity. (The Poles used that word pretty well, not so long ago) Before the Poles in Scotland were so abused, it was the Irish who were taking our jobs - and I believe that incoming Asians, in general, and the Ugandan Asians and also the Chinese and the Jews have been (ahem) tarred with the same mistakenly aggrieved brush. All those other groups who have "come to take our jobs" have (through time) been accepted, assimilated and integrated as part of the norm. An undoubted special burden sits on the shoulders of one particular section of humanity - those born with a black skin, African skin... Black folk still suffer real racial, structural, educational, aspirational hurdles littering their paths through life. Government does little to alleviate that. I see no problem with a sport making gestures to highlight the disparities faced by blacks in their sport and in UK generally. It is a stolid, peaceful way of making their valid point. Would you rather they took the Irish or Al Qaeda route to achieve a modicum of fairness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said: Whilst you and Slarti are making valid points, you and he are not the problem as in the racists that are. It is because of the racists that the need to highlight the folk with a slogan/group that have been targeted is required. Every decent person knows that all lives matter or black lives matter too. Let's not get to bothered with a few words or terms and concentrate on the actual problem, racists. That's my very point. All racists. 11 minutes ago, antrin said: I've always been a great fan of Solidarity. (The Poles used that word pretty well, not so long ago) Before the Poles in Scotland were so abused, it was the Irish who were taking our jobs - and I believe that incoming Asians, in general, and the Ugandan Asians and also the Chinese and the Jews have been (ahem) tarred with the same mistakenly aggrieved brush. All those other groups who have "come to take our jobs" have (through time) been accepted, assimilated and integrated as part of the norm. An undoubted special burden sits on the shoulders of one particular section of humanity - those born with a black skin, African skin... Black folk still suffer real racial, structural, educational, aspirational hurdles littering their paths through life. Government does little to alleviate that. I see no problem with a sport making gestures to highlight the disparities faced by blacks in their sport and in UK generally. It is a stolid, peaceful way of making their valid point. Would you rather they took the Irish or Al Qaeda route to achieve a modicum of fairness? Personally. I would rather none of it was necessary. But life is such that we get people who have a feeling of superiority or, strangely enough, more often, inferiority, that makes them want to indulge in the disgusting abuse of others because of creed or colour. To oppose this the rest of us need to stand together in the pursuit of decency. To this end I just feel that only highlighting one section is, as I said, counterproductive. ETA. This is my opinion and I know a lot of people will have different ideas on the issue so I'm stepping out at this juncture as I don't believe it would be easy to change most people perspective. As a last point I would say, although I don't necessarily always agree with the manner in which it is done, ALL peaceful attempts to rid the world of the archaic notion that one part of the population is worth less than any other has to be commended. Edited February 12, 2021 by stlucifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 24 minutes ago, stlucifer said: ETA. This is my opinion and I know a lot of people will have different ideas on the issue so I'm stepping out at this juncture as I don't believe it would be easy to change most people perspective. As a last point I would say, although I don't necessarily always agree with the manner in which it is done, ALL peaceful attempts to rid the world of the archaic notion that one part of the population is worth less than any other has to be commended. Perhaps my post was a tad overwrought... All I was pointing out is that there have been many sections of society, ridiculed and oppressed down the years but only one section has been kept suppressed and disrespected since time immemorial. Black people live daily with a problem that just doesn't diminish - so it deserves to be highlighted until such time as it does disappear.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 16 minutes ago, antrin said: Perhaps my post was a tad overwrought... All I was pointing out is that there have been many sections of society, ridiculed and oppressed down the years but only one section has been kept suppressed and disrespected since time immemorial. Black people live daily with a problem that just doesn't diminish - so it deserves to be highlighted until such time as it does disappear.. And my simple point is, so does any section of the population. Look what's happening in China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pod Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 2 hours ago, antrin said: Black people live daily with a problem that just doesn't diminish - so it deserves to be highlighted until such time as it does disappear.. Wouldn't hold your breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 No. You missed my point. In the Western world, despite there having been wave after wave of immigrants shifting around, only one group has been systematically retained as an underclass simply due to the colour of their skin. That is unique. It's unlike any other section of the population. I'm guessing your China reference may be about persecution of the Uighurs, currently? Or is it about the suppression of Tibet and its cultural traditions.? Or is it the expansionist plans for Taiwan? Or its economic invasion (and tacit takeovers) of poor African nations? The ongoing, centuries-long suppression of UK/US/EU blacks (contrary to all other groups' reception and acceptance) is surely not to be compared with China's Imperialist endeavours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 3 hours ago, stlucifer said: And my simple point is, so does any section of the population. Look what's happening in China. And this is why we need continued education. We have supposedly intelligent people like yourself who genuinely believe that black people are no more discriminated against than any other section of society. It's honestly utterly depressing to read this sort of nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 And this is why we need continued education. We have supposedly intelligent people like yourself who genuinely believe that black people are no more discriminated against than any other section of society. It's honestly utterly depressing to read this sort of nonsense.Ok, I'll bite. In Scotland, how are black people discriminated against in ways that nobody else is, or what discrimination is disproportionately against blacks?Yes, I am limiting it to Scotland, and I know about alleged/perceived/actual discrimination in places like the US against blacks, in the same way that I am aware of discriminations against others in other places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 Ok, I'll bite. In Scotland, how are black people discriminated against in ways that nobody else is, or what discrimination is disproportionately against blacks?Yes, I am limiting it to Scotland, and I know about alleged/perceived/actual discrimination in places like the US against blacks, in the same way that I am aware of discriminations against others in other places.Why not ask a black person?I did.Changed my attitude and belief as a result! Okay actually makes a good and fair point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Slarti said: Ok, I'll bite. In Scotland, how are black people discriminated against in ways that nobody else is, or what discrimination is disproportionately against blacks? Yes, I am limiting it to Scotland, and I know about alleged/perceived/actual discrimination in places like the US against blacks, in the same way that I am aware of discriminations against others in other places. I am not getting sucked into one of your games on this issue. If you want to indulge in racial gaslighting, you won't be doing it with me. Edited February 12, 2021 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 1 minute ago, BuddieinEK said: Why not ask a black person? I did. Changed my attitude and belief as a result! Okay actually makes a good and fair point. One of the problems they face is racial gaslighting which is exactly what Lucy and slarti are engaging in now. There was an article on the BBC about that last week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddymarvellous Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 I agree - I normally like Slarti’s take on a topic but this is to serious for devil’s advocate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookie Monster Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 I was recently looking through some of my primary school class photos. I'd forgotten that there was a couple of children in my class for a couple of years that had origins from the middle east. I had never noticed or remembered their skin colour being different from mine.Why hadn't I remembered, because it never fcuking mattered.I'll start with our club, we've had players from numerous countries, numerous races, numerous religions and unfortunately numerous abilities.Paisley, we welcome the same folk into our society to learn at our University.When we welcome these people to our club, into our towns and cities from wherever. Then by already showing that we the majority understand and more importantly stand with anyone that is attacked by racists. We can stamp it out by highlighting the problem and dealing with/educating the racists and hopefully kids like I was, will grow up not giving a dam what colour of skin their class mates have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 2 hours ago, oaksoft said: And this is why we need continued education. We have supposedly intelligent people like yourself who genuinely believe that black people are no more discriminated against than any other section of society. It's honestly utterly depressing to read this sort of nonsense. Where did I say they weren't disproportionally discriminated against? I said they weren't alone in being so. I suggested that by highlighting the black lives matter it can disenfranchise some who would be more vocal against discrimination if it were back to the more general and all inclusive kick out racism message Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said: I was recently looking through some of my primary school class photos. I'd forgotten that there was a couple of children in my class for a couple of years that had origins from the middle east. I had never noticed or remembered their skin colour being different from mine. Why hadn't I remembered, because it never fcuking mattered. I'll start with our club, we've had players from numerous countries, numerous races, numerous religions and unfortunately numerous abilities. Paisley, we welcome the same folk into our society to learn at our University. When we welcome these people to our club, into our towns and cities from wherever. Then by already showing that we the majority understand and more importantly stand with anyone that is attacked by racists. We can stamp it out first by highlighting the problem and hopefully kids like I was, not giving a dam what colour of skin my class mates have. Rudd Gullit might disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookie Monster Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 Rudd Gullit might disagree. Fair comment, I was meaning players who signed for us.Likewise for folk coming to Paisley, I presumed folk knew I was meaning that they'd be welcomed by the majority.I just got into a rant cause of my abhorrence of racists and of any discrimination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 Why not ask a black person?I did.Changed my attitude and belief as a result! Okay actually makes a good and fair point. And what did they say? Remember, this isn't about random racists shouting abuse, people get abuse off random arseholes for all different reasons - weight, hair colour, glasses, religion, intelligence, etc. I am not getting sucked into one of your games on this issue. If you want to indulge in racial gaslighting, you won't be doing it with me.It's not a game, I really want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 It's not a game, I really want to know.He... A mixed race male born in Largs, had faced racism all through his life.Some of the stories he shared were shameful and heartbreaking.Our conversation came about because I had said All Lives matter... Which I wholeheartedly believe to be true.My conversation with him, which shall remain private, totally changed my stance.I still believe all lives matter... But support Black Lives Matter.It is not enough to say you are against racism. Anyone can say that... Even racists.Pro equality and anti racism are not one and the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted February 13, 2021 Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 He... A mixed race male born in Largs, had faced racism all through his life.Some of the stories he shared were shameful and heartbreaking.Our conversation came about because I had said All Lives matter... Which I wholeheartedly believe to be true.My conversation with him, which shall remain private, totally changed my stance.I still believe all lives matter... But support Black Lives Matter.It is not enough to say you are against racism. Anyone can say that... Even racists.Pro equality and anti racism are not one and the same.You don't want to say, so I won't push it, but seeing as you haven't identified the person I don't see a reason why you won't. But we'll leave it there.I'm not denying that there are racists out there (who should be re-educated or, at the very least, made to shut the f**k up), but that isn't what it's about.No, they're not the same thing. Anti racism is a subset of pro equality, along with anti sexism, anti ageism, anti every other discriminatory thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted February 13, 2021 Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 20 minutes ago, Slarti said: You don't want to say, so I won't push it, but seeing as you haven't identified the person I don't see a reason why you won't. But we'll leave it there. I'm not denying that there are racists out there (who should be re-educated or, at the very least, made to shut the f**k up), but that isn't what it's about. No, they're not the same thing. Anti racism is a subset of pro equality, along with anti sexism, anti ageism, anti every other discriminatory thing. Why would/should he identify the person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted February 13, 2021 Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 Why would/should he identify the person? I never said he should. I was saying that, since he never, there is nothing to stop him disclosing the details as nobody will know who he is talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsley Hall Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 On 2/13/2021 at 1:22 AM, BuddieinEK said: He... A mixed race male born in Largs, had faced racism all through his life. Some of the stories he shared were shameful and heartbreaking. Our conversation came about because I had said All Lives matter... Which I wholeheartedly believe to be true. My conversation with him, which shall remain private, totally changed my stance. I still believe all lives matter... But support Black Lives Matter. It is not enough to say you are against racism. Anyone can say that... Even racists. Pro equality and anti racism are not one and the same. I absolutely agree with you. very deep thoughts that respond within me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 I absolutely agree with you. very deep thoughts that respond within me.Aye, ok shull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsley Hall Posted February 25, 2021 Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 Honestly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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