The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[Drew]

Just gone online under its own topic

Good stuff

Ta much

[10000hours]

We have sent out to all of those that registered interest at www.10000hours.org details of where to find the download this evening.

However some of the e-mail addresses used had typo errors and some spam filters are preventing information delivery from the address [email protected].

So if you registered but do not recieve an email tonight please check your spam filter and folder or consider re registering incase you are one of the individuals with an incorrect e-mail address

[chico]

2.81MB. Light reading

I thought yul brenners post was okay. Interesting.

[Drew]

I've given the document a quick read, and it goes some way towards answering a number of questions I've had, and others have put forward.

The concept of 24 Community Members, each paying £500 PA seemed, on the face of it, to be a potential stumbling block as I cannot quite see what they are likely to get out of this (a memorandum of understanding is a pretty vague explanation), but then I noted that the CIC already has the majority of community members required in place. I think this would seem to vindicate the low-key build up that many of us have questioned, as it would suggest that more work has been devoted on getting the initiative kick-started and testing it's viability as opposed to blowing it's trumpet in the press and public arena.

Indeed, I was actually feeling much more positive about the plan as I read through the document, that is until I reached Div's ringing endorsement. We're DOOOOOOOOOMED ah tells ye!!!!

ETA: If I were to seriously consider becoming a member, though, I would want to know exactly how many corporate and community members are already in place. A "good number" doesn't quite cut it TBH.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Drew

[2becks]

I've given the document a quick read, and it goes some way towards answering a number of questions I've had, and others have put forward.

The concept of 24 Community Members, each paying £500 PA seemed, on the face of it, to be a potential stumbling block as I cannot quite see what they are likely to get out of this (a memorandum of understanding is a pretty vague explanation), but then I noted that the CIC already has the majority of community members required in place. I think this would seem to vindicate the low-key build up that many of us have questioned, as it would suggest that more work has been devoted on getting the initiative kick-started and testing it's viability as opposed to blowing it's trumpet in the press and public arena.

Indeed, I was actually feeling much more positive about the plan as I read through the document, that is until I reached Div's ringing endorsement. We're DOOOOOOOOOMED ah tells ye!!!!

It's G*rdon Sm*th's name being assosiated with it that I don't like

[St. Sid]

It's G*rdon Sm*th's name being assosiated with it that I don't like

He is not directly involved. Although I think his support of the CIC model is useful.

[TsuMirren]

A good read, hopefully it answers a lot of questions for many fans.

[Bud the Baker]

So here's the meat -

So why is this good for the club?

It is good in a number of ways, but here are the two most important from the club's point of view: Firstly, the CIC model of ownership comes with what is called an asset lock, which means that no-one can ever come along again and make a financial mess of the club, or run it for personal gain at the expense of the fans. When the consortium sell the 52% of the shares that they own, this will we believe, be the first time in the club's history that a majority share has been controlled by either an individual or organisation. It is important that this opportunity is taken to ensure that the fans are in control of the destiny of the club.

Secondly, the product on the pitch will benet from increased budgets. We believe that when fully adopted, the business plans for St Mirren FC demonstrate that by the stronger identity and mutual benefits that are derived from the corporate structure, and building on the work that the existing board have done in securing such a fine facility, we can increase the overall SPL player budget. This does however require full commitment from the members to engage in the process. For example, the simple increased use of the facility for parties/funerals/weddings etc, could easily net the club an additional 100k per year. This is equivalent to a 7.5% increase in the player budget. The unique situation the club is in means that every additional pound earned can be re-invested. There is no club debt, so there are no banks seeking their share of any additional revenues.

If the CIC goes through the asset lock is obviously a good thing, but the extra revenue seems to be dependant on an optimistic (IMO) belief that they could increase the utilization of our facilities - if it is that easy why is it not already being done? I simply find it hard to believe (I suppose only time will tell) that this will happen automatically once the CIC is in place.

There is no indication of how the CIC is going to be controlled - will Individual members have the same voting rights as Community or Corporate members ( as ktf suggested about 40 or so pages back) all it says is

By becoming a member, you as an individual or organisation can get access and exert inuence on the future operation and development of St Mirren FC.

or to the question of what will happen if membership drops below the 12/24/300 members needed to get the initial funding.

All in all a bit airy-fairy - nothing there to make me change my mind! But I wish all of you CICers plenty of joy as you get hatched, matched and despatched at GhR.

***************************************************

Also I note that the the CIC are stating "There is no club debt" does that mean that the £860k worth of debt declared in the last set of Accounts have been paid off?

Edited April 13, 2011 by Bud the Baker

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Tried the links on my e-mail but nothing to read on 10,000

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Tried the links on my e-mail but nothing to read on 10,000

Could a fellow buddie put up a link please.

[pozbaird]

So here's the meat -

[/size][/left]

If the CIC goes through the asset lock is obviously a good thing, but the extra revenue seems to be dependant on an optimistic (IMO) belief that they could increase the utilization of our facilities - if it is that easy why is it not already being done? I simply find it hard to believe (I suppose only time will tell) that this will happen automatically once the CIC is in place.

There is no indication of how the CIC is going to be controlled - will Individual members have the same voting rights as Community or Corporate members ( as ktf suggested about 40 or so pages back) all it says is

or to the question of what will happen if membership drops below the 12/24/300 members needed to get the initial funding.

All in all a bit airy-fairy - nothing there to make me change my mind! But I wish all of you CICers plenty of joy as you get hatched, matched and despatched at GhR.

If you find some of the document isn't to your liking, use the 'contact us' facility on P12 to pose any specific questions. Naturally, not every question is answered in full, indeed, at the very beginning of the document is a statement saying it would be impossible to answer everything!

Everything in the document is of course open to criticism - but to be fair to the people involved, it's hard to see how they could do any better than to put up their contact details and invite anyone to get in touch. Allied to upcoming public and shareholder meetings, AND an online Q&A session... every chance is being given for folk to ask their questions.

I don't think anyone could be accused of ducking and diving, of not being willing to answer the questions, of hiding away.

Edited April 13, 2011 by pozbaird

[Guthro]

Could a fellow buddie put up a link please.

http://www.saintmirren.net/forms_website/10000hours.pdf

[Bud the Baker]

If you find some of the document isn't to your liking, use the 'contact us' facility on P12 to pose any specific questions. Naturally, not every question is answered in full, indeed, at the very beginning of the document is a statement saying it would be impossible to answer everything!

Everything in the document is of course open to criticism - but to be fair to the people involved, it's hard to see how they could do any better than to put up their contact details and invite anyone to get in touch. Allied to upcoming public and shareholder meetings, AND an online Q&A session... every chance is being given for folk to ask their questions.

I don't think anyone could be accused of ducking and diving, of not being willing to answer the questions, of hiding away.

If the CIC chose to publish on this site then why shouldn't I repond on it?

[St. Sid]

So here's the meat -

[/size][/left]

If the CIC goes through the asset lock is obviously a good thing, but the extra revenue seems to be dependant on an optimistic (IMO) belief that they could increase the utilization of our facilities - if it is that easy why is it not already being done? I simply find it hard to believe (I suppose only time will tell) that this will happen automatically once the CIC is in place.

There is no indication of how the CIC is going to be controlled - will Individual members have the same voting rights as Community or Corporate members ( as ktf suggested about 40 or so pages back) all it says is

or to the question of what will happen if membership drops below the 12/24/300 members needed to get the initial funding.

All in all a bit airy-fairy - nothing there to make me change my mind! But I wish all of you CICers plenty of joy as you get hatched, matched and despatched at GhR.

I have a very different view that is based on fact rather than just mindless negativity. I reckon the % increase is grossly underestimated as can be proven not only by the utilisation at other stadiums such as St Johnstone or Falkirk, but also by the number of enquiries for our own facilities currently being turned away. We still have an entire half of the main stand to be developed to fulfil that purpose. Once it is in place we will be making plenty out of it.

If my understanding is correct then that additional funding goes to on field investment. That combined with our improving youth development and I think the future can be very bright for us.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

If the CIC chose to publish on this site then why shouldn't I repond on it?

Agreed. Surly a forum can debate what's been written. and what is not understood can be asked by e-mail

Guthro thanks mate.

I see it is up on this site also now

[St. Sid]

If the CIC chose to publish on this site then why shouldn't I repond on it?

I think the point was that you have more chance of getting the club to respond using the contact us mechanism provided. If you want a response from the likes of me - happy days.

[pozbaird]

If the CIC chose to publish on this site then why shouldn't I repond on it?

Where did I suggest you shouldn't respond on here to anything? You pointed out areas you were unhappy with, and asked at least two questions, then said the whole thing was airy-fairy and you wanted no part of it.

All I said was if you are unhappy with anything in it - ask the questions you want answered by using the contact us facility... at no time did I say anything like "instead of moaning about it on here like an auld sweetie wife".

That last bit was a wind-up mate. Honest.

Edited April 13, 2011 by pozbaird

[Bud the Baker]

I have a very different view that is based on fact rather than just mindless negativity. I reckon the % increase is grossly underestimated as can be proven not only by the utilisation at other stadiums such as St Johnstone or Falkirk, but also by the number of enquiries for our own facilities currently being turned away. We still have an entire half of the main stand to be developed to fulfil that purpose. Once it is in place we will be making plenty out of it.

If my understanding is correct then that additional funding goes to on field investment. That combined with our improving youth development and I think the future can be very bright for us.

If it is so easy why is it not being done already, not a criticism of the BoD as we have a full time Managing Director, and again what can be done by the CIC that couldn't be done otherwise other than dragooning friends & family of the 300 (Spartans) to hold all their functions at GhR.

[Reynard]

If the CIC chose to publish on this site then why shouldn't I repond on it?

Why not use the facility they have provided in the document? That way you can directly ask the people who will give you the answers.

That's what I'm going to do.

[Bud the Baker]

Where did I suggest you shouldn't respond on here to anything?

Here!

If you find some of the document isn't to your liking, use the 'contact us' facility on P12 to pose any specific questions.

Why not use the facility they have provided in the document? That way you can directly ask the people who will give you the answers.

That's what I'm going to do.

Bully for you!

[St. Sid]

If it is so easy why is it not being done already, not a criticism of the BoD as we have a full time Managing Director, and again what can be done by the CIC that couldn't be done otherwise other than dragooning friends & family of the 300 (Spartans) to hold all their functions at GhR.

If the CIC doesn't go through then it might well happen anyway. The problem you will then have is that you will have no idea who will buy the club and what they will do with it. They might opt not to fund the development of the rest of the Main Stand as it would have to come out of their own pocket, or they might just raise debt against the clubs assets to fund the development....or they might just ignore what the fans want and plunge the club into secured debt to fund a Gretna style assault on the Scottish Cup.

With the CIC, WE can decide what to do with the rest of the Main Stand - supporters bar and function suite anyone? The development could be funded without St Mirren having to go for secured loans, which would put the clubs assets and ultimately the club at risk.

[FTOF]

If it is so easy why is it not being done already, not a criticism of the BoD as we have a full time Managing Director, and again what can be done by the CIC that couldn't be done otherwise other than dragooning friends & family of the 300 (Spartans) to hold all their functions at GhR.

I don't think I've seen anyone suggesting that this will be "easy".Although I do agree that the wording suggests that it is certainly possible.

However, the commercial use has been investigated and compared with similar sized clubs, all of whom appear to be getting larger financial returns.So this would give some credence to the CIC's outlook that it would appear to be possible to get more return from commercial activities.

Maybe it is possible,but maybe we need more "hard sell" from a group of indivduals who have more business acumen than our current set up.

With regards to the fitting of the members bar,I'm sure I heard or read somewhere that Kibbleworks will do this for a much reduced cost,in comparison to other firms.

This could save us a few bob.

[animal]

If it is so easy why is it not being done already, not a criticism of the BoD as we have a full time Managing Director, and again what can be done by the CIC that couldn't be done otherwise other than dragooning friends & family of the 300 (Spartans) to hold all their functions at GhR.

Yes that's a very good point.

There does not seem to be very much (almost anything at all) in the document that we did not know already, but many of the very basic questions remain unanswered.

What is the real mix of grant and loan, and is the grant dependent on the three classes of members signing up - and to what level.

The key paragraph for me is

""The funding to repay any debt will come

from two main areas. Firstly, the enhanced trading of the assets of St Mirren FC

- an area all recognise as under-utilised, especially since the stadium move.

Trading can be increased by using new social enterprise businesses operated

between 10000hours and a number of the community partners.""

I find it hard to believe that a bar trading for couple of hours every second week, the odd funeral wedding etc, and the other community users can generate the hard cash needed to pay off the loans (both capital and interest). These key figures are not in the document - are they in the detailed business plan ?

I seen Accord hospice are quoted as a community member. Putting aside the obvious question why should a charity be paying into a scheme like this, you would have to question how their involvement raises money for the CIC. This in turn raises the question should the CIC not be giving a charity like this as much of its 'services' for free ?

I hate to agree with the Daily Mail but should taxpayer cash be used to buy the shares in a private limited company ? Best of luck to SG and co. but should they really be filling their pockets with cash which could go to the NHS ?

If it were all so easy should the Club not have made more use of its own assets ?

I can see why Kibble might be keen - they seem to be guaranteed the construction work. Hmmm - at what cost ?

In terms of the £10 a month. On top of my season ticket what do get ? The offer of a bar in the ground - presumably not cut price beer ! The chance to go to some meetings and do what ? Help to elect someone to the Board. My money used to pay off a loan.

Does Mr. A or some of the other new faces draw a salary from the CIC ?

Still more questions than answers, perhaps all will be revealed at the public meetings.

[animal]

We still have an entire half of the main stand to be developed to fulfil that purpose. Once it is in place we will be making plenty out of it.

Do you have any proof that we will be making plenty ?

Do you have any expertise in this kind of business ? Please share it with us.

[yardleysappetite]

Having spent countless hours reading this site as a guest over the past 2 years now seems as good a time as any to join and actually post...whether it'll be a worthy contribution that's another issue...anyways so I've read through the 10000 hours document and it does flesh out the proposal a bit more and has answered a few of my questions and concerns, however I'm still a little miffed about the whole debt repayment aspect of it...the document acknowledges that there will be borrowing and that it will taken out against the 10000 hours group, ok fine so far...the next section explains that this borrowing will be repaid by the increased use and trading of the clubs facilities (100k per annum projections are noted) and the CiC membership...ok again fair enough...but then what exactly is the level of borrowing required that will be classifed as loans? Is it the full £2 million to buy the 52% or a smaller amount?

My point is should the borrowing to fund this takeover be £2million does this mean that all additional income from the facilities and membership of the CiC will go straight to paying of this borrowing and not to improving the team budgets until the amount is fully repaid...now with around 100k projected additional incomes and say 36k from CiC membership that will take a few years to repay...being an anthropologist finance has never been my forte so if anyone could clarify this for me that'd be much appreciated...I know the 10000 hours team have put up contact details but I have a feeling that perhaps someone will be able to answer this for me on here without me having to clog up the inbox of the Atkinson et al.