The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[FTOF]

To be continued.

Please don't.

[pozbaird]

Dear Yul,

As a well meaning fan who has offered to do stuff without looking for payment - I did it before I'd even heard of Richard Atkinson too. I have also helped Norrie at the club with a few things, again, long before Richard Atkinson appeared on the scene.

I actually take exception to the suggestion that I am somehow under his spell and think he's the Messiah.

No-one forced me to help out with some graphic work, I offered. I'd do it again next year or the year after too. I enjoy the work, it's a hobby, and it's fun doing stuff about the team, instead of some boring advert for Wullie the Joiner and his business cards.

Edited April 5, 2011 by pozbaird

[RossTheBoss]

It could never happen…

A tale to worry about

Once upon a time there was a football club that had transformed itself from a position of debt to one of security and was happy to boast of being debt free.

The supporters and board and shareholders were proud too. They had seen off dangerous promises of riches in the past.

Results were not great but the club had a loyal following… and a supporter base that cared. The club had been a top league team for most of its 130 years. As a result

the club was famous for the high expectations of its fans and the demanding nature of their support.

The directors had done a fantastic job. Unfortunately the board split. 52% control of the club was put up for sale as a bloc purchase.

Who would buy? Who would spend their own money to buy, not the entire club but control of 52%.

Over the horizon rode a stranger. A self-confessed non-football fan. A man with absolutely no interest in St. Mirren Football Club.

He decided to offer to buy the controlling interest in the club. But he would spend none of his own money to do so. He knew he couldn't buy the entire club. He would go instead for the 52% and ignore all the rest.

He would have to get some of the natives onside first, even though he doesn't understand the offside nor onside rule! Bit of humour there. So he targets the supporters who seem to care most. He speaks to high profile fans and their organisations. He explains that he is going to set up a community interest company and that they will have a say in the running of their club… just like Barcelona. The fans care and some go along with the notion. He finds out what pushes their buttons. He discovers that it is their love for the club and a hope for a better future. This is their weakness.

Meantime the directors decide that his is the only possibility in town, the reasons don't matter. They will allow him to run with the ball. It is round, they explain.

He sets to work. He will attempt to buy this famous club with other people's money using the idea of a community buy out. Businesses will be asked to contribute £10k each annually. Fans £120 each annually on top of what they already spend. Contacts are made. He speaks to the fans in a small way. He even manages to get some of the well-meaning ones to contribute to his efforts for free. They do so because they firmly believe they are helping their team. He intends to raise cash to buy the shares by applying for grants from the Scottish Government and later in the process announces that some of the money will be by way of loans. This is a new development but the fans seem to accept it. They say the loans will be held by the CIC. So the CIC will have substantial debts. No mention has been made of any real investment in the team at this stage. Information leaks out. Publicity is gained by limited TV and media coverage. A well meaning former player is brought in to help front the project. This is good publicity and a number of pundits accept it at face value. The TV interviews tell the fans nothing. The radio talks of a Barcelona model of ownership for the Buddies, even though it is clear that Barcelona is 100 percent owned by its supporters. Saints will not be. They will be moved into the control of a CIC owned by a mix of fans and a transient membership this may be well meaning but as with all committees is a recipe for discord unless a total purchase is on the cards. It isn't. They could find themselves being managed by a mixture of charities, churches and possibly businesses in the future if the principal decides he wants to move on. He has stated that if the idea doesn't work he will leave. Some are surprised that he is still around at this point as the season has only a few matches left. But convincing others to part with their cash can take time, especially if you are not prepared to do so to any extent yourself. He is comfortable with this as he has no real connection to the club and has stated that he is only doing this because he can.

The stranger seems a decent fellow though. There is no reason to think otherwise and still isn't. He talks of community at a shareholders' AGM. A shareholder asks why he is not doing this at Ayr United as he comes from Ayr and has stated that he is passionate about community. His answer is that they are in debt. The questioner says so much for community.

Time goes on and anticipated deadlines pass. Debates start on both unofficial and official websites. Some points are made out of concern. Others from what appear to be entrenched viewpoints. Some of the language is unfortunate but at least everyone, that's everyone shows passion, no matter their viewpoint. Our stranger doesn't however. But says in interviews that although he is not a St. Mirren fan he is a football supporter. This is surprising as the press in Ayrshire (Try the Irvine Herald) quoted the MD of his parent company, actually his father, as saying that his son has no interest whatsoever in football. Oh well, play to the gallery. St. Mirren is the only team I have ever wanted to take control of with other people's money, or words to that effect.

There are attractions in his scheme though. In fact if it were to create a genuine community buy out of the club, that's the entire club, then the idea may appeal to even the doubters. Unfortunately he has been quoted on websites and elsewhere saying that the other 48 per cent of the shareholder don't matter. As ever Paisley is a village and as with other aspects of this scheme these comments have a way of coming out.

Some fans call for calm and to wait and see. Others see dangerous waters ahead and don't want to hit the rocks. Tempers flair on the forums. Some supporters try to advise while others try to alarm, warn, or convince. All the while time is being bought. We are told that if the community buy in then money is in the pipeline. But from where? Where is this cash pipeline in the middle of a recession? The onus is shifted onto the community, the fans. It will be their fault if it fails. Our hero will be blameless and will walk away.

It would be easy to decry our hero. But as he seems to be a decent chap many are quite rightly giving him the benefit of the doubt. Even as others are, quite rightly questioning his motives.

Unfortunately the proof will only be in the pudding if this goes through. The problem with this tale is that there are too many what ifs. The attraction of not being responsible for any debt you incur in purchasing the shares is understandable. We are told the club will be unaffected. This seems like Christmas every day to some Buds and no wonder! However not one person has asked what the knock on effect will be on the club. A potentially failed owner with 52% shareholding which belongs not to the subscribing fans but to the CIC. The debt will have to be addressed. The club cannot expect any real level of investment from an owner so deep in debt.

The pluses are there though. The idea of the club being safe forever is a big one. But the risk involved in this experiment isn't worth it. Some fans argue that they would feel more a part of the club. After all they love St. Mirren which is to their credit. The funny thing here is that the club already belongs to the supporters and always has. It's just that some of them have more shares than others. If it goes down this route, with a collection of minority churches including some from outwith Paisley and Renfrewshire, with people in control who have no real interest in the team, the pride of local people and what makes them tick and any number of small contributors with no opportunity to further invest in the club in times of emergency then heaven help us.

This is a fantastic tale and we (there are seven of us, cue the music, yes that may be the magnificent seven) couldn't possibly see this actually happening. Could you?

To be continued.

What a load of fucking bullshit.

[St. Sid]

We are in the fortunate position that we don't really need to advertise. The vast bulk of our work is repeat business from satisfied clients. We do however spend several thousand pounds a year with St. Mirren.

So you don't have a large marketing budget and are therefore as unqualified in marketing as you are in finance or adding up.

Have you got the best Betterware patch in Paisley.

Edited April 5, 2011 by St. Sid

[St. Sid]

The consortium own 52% between the 5 of them. I thought that of the other 48%, Gordon Scott owned 35% of them. I think someone posted something along those lines on here recently. Either that, or Gordon Scott and one other shareholder between them own 35% of the non-consortium owned shares.

If anyone has been, or is being, shafted - seems to me that it won't be the CIC shafting the 48%, it was the consortium seriously shafting Gordon Scott.

I don't think GLS is even the largest shareholder outwith the consortium. Some posters on here would be shocked to their boots to know who is. It is up to them if they want to come forward and explain their feelings about their shares and their value. My understanding is that they are supportive of the CIC model.

[St. Sid]

What a load of fucking bullshit.

It is also a load of repeated f'k'n bullshit. There's a few lines that are word for word posted earlier in the thread.

[div]

I don't think GLS is even the largest shareholder outwith the consortium. Some posters on here would be shocked to their boots to know who is. It is up to them if they want to come forward and explain their feelings about their shares and their value. My understanding is that they are supportive of the CIC model.

GLS is the biggest shareholder outside the consortium.

There are 900 shareholders approx !

[St. Sid]

GLS is the biggest shareholder outside the consortium.

There are 900 shareholders approx !

I'll take your word for it as they are prone to exaggeration.

[pozbaird]

I don't think GLS is even the largest shareholder outwith the consortium. Some posters on here would be shocked to their boots to know who is. It is up to them if they want to come forward and explain their feelings about their shares and their value. My understanding is that they are supportive of the CIC model.

Is it Yul Brynner?

I'm sure I read an informed post recently that said GLS had 35% of the 48%. Ach, I thought Kyle was at Hearts last season in a post, so I could be havering.... again.

[davidg]

I don't think GLS is even the largest shareholder outwith the consortium.

GLS is the biggest shareholder outside the consortium.

There are 900 shareholders approx !

GLS followed by Ken McGeoch?

[Griff]

I enjoyed reading Yul Brynors post , and agreed with much he said.

I also like a lot of ideas that Richard Atkinson has come up with .

I,ll wait and see what happens before I commit to any CIC , and whatever happens I want whats best for St Mirren , I,m not comfortable with large shareholders at the club losing out on their investment , and this may have a negative impact on the club , when the club approaches local businesses to sign up .

I really don,t want us to go down any road that prevents us from reverting back to the way we were.

Wouldn,t it be great if we could all find a way to work together and take St mirren forward.

[Tracy Barlow Loyal]

I think I shall wait and see what Horst Buchholz; Brad Dexter; Steve McQueen; Charles Bronson; James Coburn; and Robert Vaughn have to say about the take over before "making my mind up", or should I consult Cheryl Baker?

[faraway saint]

It will be sent out via email sometime next week to all those who have registered an interest via the 10000hours website, and it will also be made available to download from there.

Over 1,000 registrations of interest now taken on the TTH site.

How many are serious?

I'd wager "not many" so the 1,000 figure means nothing until a real pledge is shown.

[animal]

GLS followed by Ken McGeoch?

Some major share info here:=

http://www.paisleydailyexpress.co.uk/renfrewshire-sport/renfrewshire-football/renfrewshire-football-st-mirren/2010/05/12/scott-made-two-bids-to-buy-the-buddies-87085-26425207/

[Eddy]

I'll take your word for it as they are prone to exaggeration.

I think the quote you're thinking in was "biggest shareholders outwith the board of directors" and GLS was on the board at the time.

[Eddy]

I don't think GLS is even the largest shareholder outwith the consortium. Some posters on here would be shocked to their boots to know who is. It is up to them if they want to come forward and explain their feelings about their shares and their value. My understanding is that they are supportive of the CIC model.

I'm surprised everyone hasn't worked it out already Sid, you're always dropping enough hints.

After the CIC proposal has been digested I'd really like to see someone who has a few contacts (Div?) conduct some sort of interview with some of the 48% - I'd really appreciate hearing what their take on this scenario is - I don't want to make up my mind after only hearing one side of the argument. I get the feeling SG would have much more to say on the matter if it wasn't his money involved.

[ktf]

I do wonder what the implications are for the 48% (as they have come to be known).

I wonder if the CiC guys have thought about some type of share transfer for the any of the 48%, so that they can move their shares over to the CiC in return for CiC membership for x number of years...

That way, at least the 48% have something on offer and perhaps the risk of being alienated is slightly lessened.

[davidg]

What happens after 12 months if 5 of the 12 when 5 of the 12 £10,000 a year companies pull out?

What if RA or the CIC fail to find replacements?

Edited April 8, 2011 by davidg

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

I don't think GLS is even the largest shareholder outwith the consortium. Some posters on here would be shocked to their boots to know who is. It is up to them if they want to come forward and explain their feelings about their shares and their value. My understanding is that they are supportive of the CIC model.

Sid how can you make up so much nonsense

[bluto]

What happens after 12 months if 5 of the 12 when 5 of the 12 £10,000 a year companies pull out?

What if RA or the CIC fail to find replacements?

Simples.

They'll sell Higgie to Inter Milan.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

It could never happen…

A tale to worry about

Once upon a time there was a football club that had transformed itself from a position of debt to one of security and was happy to boast of being debt free.

The supporters and board and shareholders were proud too. They had seen off dangerous promises of riches in the past.

Results were not great but the club had a loyal following… and a supporter base that cared. The club had been a top league team for most of its 130 years. As a result

the club was famous for the high expectations of its fans and the demanding nature of their support.

The directors had done a fantastic job. Unfortunately the board split. 52% control of the club was put up for sale as a bloc purchase.

Who would buy? Who would spend their own money to buy, not the entire club but control of 52%.

Over the horizon rode a stranger. A self-confessed non-football fan. A man with absolutely no interest in St. Mirren Football Club.

He decided to offer to buy the controlling interest in the club. But he would spend none of his own money to do so. He knew he couldn’t buy the entire club. He would go instead for the 52% and ignore all the rest.

He would have to get some of the natives onside first, even though he doesn’t understand the offside nor onside rule! Bit of humour there. So he targets the supporters who seem to care most. He speaks to high profile fans and their organisations. He explains that he is going to set up a community interest company and that they will have a say in the running of their club… just like Barcelona. The fans care and some go along with the notion. He finds out what pushes their buttons. He discovers that it is their love for the club and a hope for a better future. This is their weakness.

Meantime the directors decide that his is the only possibility in town, the reasons don’t matter. They will allow him to run with the ball. It is round, they explain.

He sets to work. He will attempt to buy this famous club with other people’s money using the idea of a community buy out. Businesses will be asked to contribute £10k each annually. Fans £120 each annually on top of what they already spend. Contacts are made. He speaks to the fans in a small way. He even manages to get some of the well-meaning ones to contribute to his efforts for free. They do so because they firmly believe they are helping their team. He intends to raise cash to buy the shares by applying for grants from the Scottish Government and later in the process announces that some of the money will be by way of loans. This is a new development but the fans seem to accept it. They say the loans will be held by the CIC. So the CIC will have substantial debts. No mention has been made of any real investment in the team at this stage. Information leaks out. Publicity is gained by limited TV and media coverage. A well meaning former player is brought in to help front the project. This is good publicity and a number of pundits accept it at face value. The TV interviews tell the fans nothing. The radio talks of a Barcelona model of ownership for the Buddies, even though it is clear that Barcelona is 100 percent owned by its supporters. Saints will not be. They will be moved into the control of a CIC owned by a mix of fans and a transient membership this may be well meaning but as with all committees is a recipe for discord unless a total purchase is on the cards. It isn’t. They could find themselves being managed by a mixture of charities, churches and possibly businesses in the future if the principal decides he wants to move on. He has stated that if the idea doesn’t work he will leave. Some are surprised that he is still around at this point as the season has only a few matches left. But convincing others to part with their cash can take time, especially if you are not prepared to do so to any extent yourself. He is comfortable with this as he has no real connection to the club and has stated that he is only doing this because he can.

The stranger seems a decent fellow though. There is no reason to think otherwise and still isn’t. He talks of community at a shareholders’ AGM. A shareholder asks why he is not doing this at Ayr United as he comes from Ayr and has stated that he is passionate about community. His answer is that they are in debt. The questioner says so much for community.

Time goes on and anticipated deadlines pass. Debates start on both unofficial and official websites. Some points are made out of concern. Others from what appear to be entrenched viewpoints. Some of the language is unfortunate but at least everyone, that’s everyone shows passion, no matter their viewpoint. Our stranger doesn’t however. But says in interviews that although he is not a St. Mirren fan he is a football supporter. This is surprising as the press in Ayrshire (Try the Irvine Herald) quoted the MD of his parent company, actually his father, as saying that his son has no interest whatsoever in football. Oh well, play to the gallery. St. Mirren is the only team I have ever wanted to take control of with other people’s money, or words to that effect.

There are attractions in his scheme though. In fact if it were to create a genuine community buy out of the club, that’s the entire club, then the idea may appeal to even the doubters. Unfortunately he has been quoted on websites and elsewhere saying that the other 48 per cent of the shareholder don’t matter. As ever Paisley is a village and as with other aspects of this scheme these comments have a way of coming out.

Some fans call for calm and to wait and see. Others see dangerous waters ahead and don’t want to hit the rocks. Tempers flair on the forums. Some supporters try to advise while others try to alarm, warn, or convince. All the while time is being bought. We are told that if the community buy in then money is in the pipeline. But from where? Where is this cash pipeline in the middle of a recession? The onus is shifted onto the community, the fans. It will be their fault if it fails. Our hero will be blameless and will walk away.

It would be easy to decry our hero. But as he seems to be a decent chap many are quite rightly giving him the benefit of the doubt. Even as others are, quite rightly questioning his motives.

Unfortunately the proof will only be in the pudding if this goes through. The problem with this tale is that there are too many what ifs. The attraction of not being responsible for any debt you incur in purchasing the shares is understandable. We are told the club will be unaffected. This seems like Christmas every day to some Buds and no wonder! However not one person has asked what the knock on effect will be on the club. A potentially failed owner with 52% shareholding which belongs not to the subscribing fans but to the CIC. The debt will have to be addressed. The club cannot expect any real level of investment from an owner so deep in debt.

The pluses are there though. The idea of the club being safe forever is a big one. But the risk involved in this experiment isn’t worth it. Some fans argue that they would feel more a part of the club. After all they love St. Mirren which is to their credit. The funny thing here is that the club already belongs to the supporters and always has. It’s just that some of them have more shares than others. If it goes down this route, with a collection of minority churches including some from outwith Paisley and Renfrewshire, with people in control who have no real interest in the team, the pride of local people and what makes them tick and any number of small contributors with no opportunity to further invest in the club in times of emergency then heaven help us.

This is a fantastic tale and we (there are seven of us, cue the music, yes that may be the magnificent seven) couldn’t possibly see this actually happening. Could you?

To be continued.

At long last a voice of counter balance and put down in an excellent manner.

I always remember being told if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is. The things that eats away at me, a huge loan is being taking out which many fans seem to think if it cant be paid back then it is not a problem as the CIC hold it. Christmas day every day indeed

[Big Fras]

At long last a voice of counter balance and put down in an excellent manner.

I always remember being told if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is. The things that eats away at me, a huge loan is being taking out which many fans seem to think if it cant be paid back then it is not a problem as the CIC hold it. Christmas day every day indeed

Careful there LS, Pravda officials will be along soon.

[davidg]

Simples.

They'll sell Higgie to Inter Milan.

The CIC can't sell a St Mirren player

[Stu]

We've managed to upset the Daily Heil

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1374669/Public-cash-sought-buy-St-Mirren.html

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Careful there LS, Pravda officials will be along soon.

Yourself and the poster above are needed for putting a counter balance on the subject simply because up till now it has been too one sided.

I have said if the club goes down the CIC route I would contribute. I'm a die hard. However the garden seems too perfect with no weeds.Fans need to know the pit falls.