The Club Buy Out - 10000 Hours

[steve_the_saint]

We have 2500 season ticket holders and so far only 433 pledges (this fig based on all pledges coming from STH)

Are the fans having a decisive say in what they really want, how about some sort of vote on this to determine what the real views are.

What happens if the CIC goes through and the remaining 2000 STH don’t renew because they are not happy how the club is getting run 433 £10’s won’t go far.

I’m not for or against the CIC but I’m a little unsure and undecided so many questions some answered, some maybe answered, some not answered.

Yes maybe in principle it is a very good idea but why does it have to be my team that this experiment is happening to, why not try it out with a lower league team to see if it works.

But the biggest question for me is how can these guys who don’t know the first thing about SMFC turn up not spend a penny to buy the shares and sit and run our club.

If this was to fail I’m I correct and saying that it can’t go back to being a LTD company so who can take it over some other community group with lots of money, not many of them going about.

I have followed St.Mirren for over 35 years seen so many highs and lows but this is the biggest test and it’s not even about what's happening on the park.

The CIC isn't an exclusive closed shop club. If any ST holder is concerned about how the club is run then they can become a member of the CIC and make a difference. But the reason the CIC WILL work is because any decisions will be made by the majority of the fans. The members of the CIC will have nothing in common except being St. Mirren fans. So you could argue that the 400 CIC members is a balanced cross-section of the entire support and so the same outcomes would result as if the entire support voted.

The SMFC board of directors will be running the club. They will have to be elected by the fans. If the majority of the saints fans vote for RA to be on the club board then thats what the fans want. So ultimately, those who are running the club will be answering to to us, the CIC members aka the fans.

The only thing the Executive Board is there for is as a middleman between the funding bodies and the CIC.

Why would it fail? The CIC would collapse if the members lost interest in the idea. As long as the fans want the CIC to work, it will not collapse. If the CIC collapses it's because the majority of the fans want it to collapse.

[David_Morrison]

We have 2500 season ticket holders and so far only 433 pledges (this fig based on all pledges coming from STH)

Are the fans having a decisive say in what they really want, how about some sort of vote on this to determine what the real views are.

What happens if the CIC goes through and the remaining 2000 STH don’t renew because they are not happy how the club is getting run 433 £10’s won’t go far.

I'm not sure enough is being done to make everyone aware of what's happening. If you don't follow St. Mirren online then that's seems to be it. None of my friends have any idea what's going on unless I tell them because they just enjoy going to games and watching the football. I know there's been a couple of articles but not really that many so you'd have to be lucky or looking for it to see it.

Yes maybe in principle it is a very good idea but why does it have to be my team that this experiment is happening to, why not try it out with a lower league team to see if it works.

They might not have the resources available to make them a viable investment for corporate companies, and the idea would be dead before it began. As well as they fact they generally have smaller fanbases.

But the biggest question for me is how can these guys who don’t know the first thing about SMFC turn up not spend a penny to buy the shares and sit and run our club.

They know things about business and I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that we need to be ran as a good business to succeed because nowadays money means everything. The fans will be getting a chance to talk about how the team gets run, not them. They're also putting in thousands of hours of work, which doesn't come at no cost to them. While they might not be financing the purchasing of shares I'm pretty sure they'll be running up expenses getting the idea running anyway.

If this was to fail I’m I correct and saying that it can’t go back to being a LTD company so who can take it over some other community group with lots of money, not many of them going about.

As far as I'm aware we're still an LTD company and nothing is changing in that respect. All that is changing is our major shareholder is a CIC (which can't progress to an LTD, all it can do is remain a CIC or become a charity). So if this is to fail then we'll be in a similar position as we are now with regards to our ownership.

[ds10]

There's a fairly simple solution - the club doesn't accept the CIC's bid and things carry on as before. Not great, going on the last few years, but a perfectly reasonable way to run a football club - there is no threat to the future of the club. A few of the CIC's ideas could be "borrowed" and put into place to raise more cash.

All we seem to be hearing in detail is what will happen in year one - would be good to know what will happen in years two or three once things are running. It would also be nice to hear a proper contingency plan if a large number of the supporters, or four or five corporate members, decide it is not for them, pull out and can't be replaced. At the moment it seems the answer is to run around shouting "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK".

I would also quite like to know what will happen to the CIC money after the debt has been paid off.

Exactly how much of the £10 a month will actually go to St. Mirren?

[Big Fras]

For a completely neutral perspective......

I had to take my lad to a kids play centre party today, with a promised running time of 3 hours

To keep in touch with all things sporting, although officially under the guise of “doing work”, I brought along my laptop. Got talking with another Dad, and for such an affable, regular sort, it transpired he was a senior partner in a private investment bank. Luckily, he was a big fitba fan, and recalls seeing SMFC as a spotty teenager at Oldham !

I started talking about the CIC bid. I showed him the 10,000 hours site, and gave him as much background as possible, before asking him to have a quick trawl through the last few pages of the thread. His answers were quite interesting:

*Surprise at the proposal looking set to go through at SMFC given the current state of affairs compared to many other teams.

*Thought SMFC looked like a decent investment opportunity compared to most provincial sides, but that would need to be quantified when looking at the BoD asking price.

*Suggested BoD may be losing patience with no formal offers from other parties

*Said that at least one of the existing BoD should be on the new executive board to “guarantee some form of continuity and vital knowledge of current/past operational performance”

*Presumed that any negative press reaction to the issue of “public money” and pay-outs to BoD members (one or two then going on to be on the board) will have been identified already, and a suitable strategy is in place

Strangely, he thought that Yul Bryner made many valid points – in between p*ssing himself at the cod western dialogue He was only looking at it from a cold business perspective..........I said that this is no bad thing. I’m not going to expand upon this, as I will be derided/abused by the usual suspects. Until 2.10pm today, I was all for the bid. Now I am far from certain.

The guy is more qualified in these matters than virtually anyone else on this thread, and has no axe to grind with anyone. He just called it as he saw it., so I had to respect his views. I wish I hadn’t talked to him now .......

[Stuart Dickson]

For a completely neutral perspective......

I had to take my lad to a kids play centre party today, with a promised running time of 3 hours

To keep in touch with all things sporting, although officially under the guise of “doing work”, I brought along my laptop. Got talking with another Dad, and for such an affable, regular sort, it transpired he was a senior partner in a private investment bank. Luckily, he was a big fitba fan, and recalls seeing SMFC as a spotty teenager at Oldham !

I started talking about the CIC bid. I showed him the 10,000 hours site, and gave him as much background as possible, before asking him to have a quick trawl through the last few pages of the thread. His answers were quite interesting:

*Surprise at the proposal looking set to go through at SMFC given the current state of affairs compared to many other teams.

*Thought SMFC looked like a decent investment opportunity compared to most provincial sides, but that would need to be quantified when looking at the BoD asking price. *Suggested BoD may be losing patience with no formal offers from other parties

*Said that at least one of the existing BoD should be on the new executive board to “guarantee some form of continuity and vital knowledge of current/past operational performance”

*Presumed that any negative press reaction to the issue of “public money” and pay-outs to BoD members (one or two then going on to be on the board) will have been identified already, and a suitable strategy is in place

Strangely, he thought that Yul Bryner made many valid points – in between p*ssing himself at the cod western dialogue He was only looking at it from a cold business perspective..........I said that this is no bad thing. I’m not going to expand upon this, as I will be derided/abused by the usual suspects. Until 2.10pm today, I was all for the bid. Now I am far from certain.

The guy is more qualified in these matters than virtually anyone else on this thread, and has no axe to grind with anyone. He just called it as he saw it., so I had to respect his views. I wish I hadn’t talked to him now .......

Where there is investment potential lies is in the building itself. I had a look online a week ago for wedding venues that were up for sale. I found a couple that were of the unusual type variety including a Sports Club in England which claimed wedding guests could go out and watch some cricket while waiting on weddings starting. Prices were listed at £1.8m to £2.7m. Those venues were more grand than a small football stadium in Ferguslie Park but all the same it's a place where you can get married, wander onto the pitch and stands for the wedding pictures, and to the bar for the meal, drinks and the dance afterwards. With a bit of imagination you could even turn the hospitality suites into accomodation for the bridal party. I can see the attraction and I could see how that would be seen as a significant business asset within the football stadium. Then there is the potential for secure airport parking on site, some five-a-side pitches that can be rented out and a long term lease on a couple of football pitches at Ralston. Take the football team out of the equasion and £2m for 52% of the business might not a bad bit of business especially if the Captains claims at the time are correct and that the Greenhill Road site came with a lot of land that could be developed.

However, the elephant in the room is the football club. No matter how you look at it £4m is a ridiculous valuation for the business that barely turns a profit never mind the kind of capital that makes it worth £4m. It's brand has very modest value in Renfrewshire never mind Scotland and it's arguable that the football club has any growth potential at all even if the team play in half filled stadiums every week.

[The Real Zippy]

For a completely neutral perspective......

I had to take my lad to a kids play centre party today, with a promised running time of 3 hours

To keep in touch with all things sporting, although officially under the guise of doing work, I brought along my laptop. Got talking with another Dad, and for such an affable, regular sort, it transpired he was a senior partner in a private investment bank. Luckily, he was a big fitba fan, and recalls seeing SMFC as a spotty teenager at Oldham !

I started talking about the CIC bid. I showed him the 10,000 hours site, and gave him as much background as possible, before asking him to have a quick trawl through the last few pages of the thread. His answers were quite interesting:

*Surprise at the proposal looking set to go through at SMFC given the current state of affairs compared to many other teams.

*Thought SMFC looked like a decent investment opportunity compared to most provincial sides, but that would need to be quantified when looking at the BoD asking price.

*Suggested BoD may be losing patience with no formal offers from other parties

*Said that at least one of the existing BoD should be on the new executive board to guarantee some form of continuity and vital knowledge of current/past operational performance

*Presumed that any negative press reaction to the issue of public money and pay-outs to BoD members (one or two then going on to be on the board) will have been identified already, and a suitable strategy is in place

Strangely, he thought that Yul Bryner made many valid points in between p*ssing himself at the cod western dialogue He was only looking at it from a cold business perspective..........I said that this is no bad thing. Im not going to expand upon this, as I will be derided/abused by the usual suspects. Until 2.10pm today, I was all for the bid. Now I am far from certain.

The guy is more qualified in these matters than virtually anyone else on this thread, and has no axe to grind with anyone. He just called it as he saw it., so I had to respect his views. I wish I hadnt talked to him now .......

I wouldn't let the 'usual suspects' deride you Fras, when it is meant to be honest debate on here. It would be interesting to hear what that particular bloke had to say, especially if his background is finance.

Edited April 24, 2011 by The Real Zippy

[bud77]

Howdy Pardners..…to be continued

You really do come acrossas a fantasist with nothing but suspicion and innuendo, if you have any facts or evidence then they're lost in your ramblings. If I want to read some conspiacy theory fiction I'd prefer Dan Brown - maybe instead of Angels and Demons you could have Saints and Sinners ?

Seriously? You're asking what happens if the members lose interest in the club to such an extent they can't find £10 a month?Seriously? You're asking what happens if the members lose interest in the club to such an extent they can't find £10 a month?Yes that's what I'm saying - partiallyThe collective loss of interest and therefore funds may be a problemRemember the 3 routes to membershipIf collectively all 3 routes fail to sustain the required funding then what happensIs that not a reasonable question?

What happens if a private investor does a Melville or a Brookson ?

For a completely neutral perspective...... I had to take my lad to a kids play centre party today, with a promised running time of 3 hours To keep in touch with all things sporting, although officially under the guise of “doing work”, I brought along my laptop. Got talking with another Dad, and for such an affable, regular sort, it transpired he was a senior partner in a private investment bank. Luckily, he was a big fitba fan, and recalls seeing SMFC as a spotty teenager at Oldham !I started talking about the CIC bid. I showed him the 10,000 hours site, and gave him as much background as possible, before asking him to have a quick trawl through the last few pages of the thread. His answers were quite interesting:*Surprise at the proposal looking set to go through at SMFC given the current state of affairs compared to many other teams. *Thought SMFC looked like a decent investment opportunity compared to most provincial sides, but that would need to be quantified when looking at the BoD asking price. *Suggested BoD may be losing patience with no formal offers from other parties*Said that at least one of the existing BoD should be on the new executive board to “guarantee some form of continuity and vital knowledge of current/past operational performance”*Presumed that any negative press reaction to the issue of “public money” and pay-outs to BoD members (one or two then going on to be on the board) will have been identified already, and a suitable strategy is in placeStrangely, he thought that Yul Bryner made many valid points – in between p*ssing himself at the cod western dialogue He was only looking at it from a cold business perspective..........I said that this is no bad thing. I’m not going to expand upon this, as I will be derided/abused by the usual suspects. Until 2.10pm today, I was all for the bid. Now I am far from certain.The guy is more qualified in these matters than virtually anyone else on this thread, and has no axe to grind with anyone. He just called it as he saw it., so I had to respect his views. I wish I hadn’t talked to him now .......

Investment bankers are generally looking for a return on their investments and wasn't it them that caused the global financial crisis ? I think I'd be even more suspicious of an investment bank getting involved with Saints. As for 'a decent investment opportunity ', that's only if people are willing to invest but generally speaking a football club is more like a financial blackhole when it comes to private investment, I prefer the CIC as it allows us to keep control on spending, just look at r*ngers with all their private investment.

[pozbaird]

For a completely neutral perspective......

I had to take my lad to a kids play centre party today, with a promised running time of 3 hours

To keep in touch with all things sporting, although officially under the guise of “doing work”, I brought along my laptop. Got talking with another Dad, and for such an affable, regular sort, it transpired he was a senior partner in a private investment bank. Luckily, he was a big fitba fan, and recalls seeing SMFC as a spotty teenager at Oldham !

I started talking about the CIC bid. I showed him the 10,000 hours site, and gave him as much background as possible, before asking him to have a quick trawl through the last few pages of the thread. His answers were quite interesting:

*Surprise at the proposal looking set to go through at SMFC given the current state of affairs compared to many other teams.

*Thought SMFC looked like a decent investment opportunity compared to most provincial sides, but that would need to be quantified when looking at the BoD asking price.

*Suggested BoD may be losing patience with no formal offers from other parties

*Said that at least one of the existing BoD should be on the new executive board to “guarantee some form of continuity and vital knowledge of current/past operational performance”

*Presumed that any negative press reaction to the issue of “public money” and pay-outs to BoD members (one or two then going on to be on the board) will have been identified already, and a suitable strategy is in place

Strangely, he thought that Yul Bryner made many valid points – in between p*ssing himself at the cod western dialogue He was only looking at it from a cold business perspective..........I said that this is no bad thing. I’m not going to expand upon this, as I will be derided/abused by the usual suspects. Until 2.10pm today, I was all for the bid. Now I am far from certain.

The guy is more qualified in these matters than virtually anyone else on this thread, and has no axe to grind with anyone. He just called it as he saw it., so I had to respect his views. I wish I hadn’t talked to him now .......

Fras,

Good observations from the guy you spoke with, sounds like he is in an important position. The only thing I would say is to you personally - in regard to you being all for it, then not so sure, because of speaking to one guy. I feel the same way sometimes. I end up putting anyone else's strong views to the side, and simply making my own mind up about it.

Personally, I am in a fortunate position in that I can bend the ear of many highly qualified people to ask them their opinion on the whole affair. To summarise their responses in a somewhat simplified manner would be this. They are saying to me that the CIC plan has many advantages, especially with the way the majority of football clubs are run these days - but at this sort of level it is untried. It is a risk in respect of members joining up, staying involved, staying enthusiastic about it, and it is a risk that no-one will really know if it is working or not until it is tried, and you actually see it in place. The people I have spoken to do not voice many concerns about it now - they see potential problems four or five years down the line, IF a combination of events transpires that scunners the majority of members into chucking it.

I listened to what they had to say, same as I actually listen to what someone like 'Yul Brynner' has to say, and take it all on board. Fortunately though, the other people I spoke to can articulate their thoughts on the scheme in a mature manner, without resorting to Yul Brynner's inimitable style of preaching.

I try to deal with as many facts as I can. The facts as I see them are that the selling consortium rejected SEVERAL bids, around the £1m mark. The selling consortium have entertained Richard Atkinson's plan to the extent that him and Chris Stewart have been there for a year. The fact is that we are where we are - it looks likely to go ahead, and from what I've learned so far - it is definitely worth taking a punt on. As an individual member for the equivalent of £2.30 a week? 70p LESS than the price of Campbell Kennedy's Budweiser!

I do not know if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread or not. I have no way of knowing how many people will sign up, and more importantly perhaps, sign up and get involved in a positive way to make it work. I have no way of knowing if the CIC executive board WILL deliver massive increases in the use of the facilities, and achieve other community initiative goals that reduce the amount to be repaid. Fact is though, that for months now, I have met with, and dealt with, Richard Atkinson on a personal and professional level, and have no reason to feel worried that he is in some way a devious and scheming Reg Brearley. Christ, even Yul Brynner says he seems to be a 'decent hombre'.

As I say, I try to base my decisions on what I know and see - rather than place TOO much emphasis on what others say. At the end of the day, I do not see a doomsday scenario should it fail. If it fails, I see it happening down the line, with much of the funding then repaid. The 52% controlling interest would be put up for sale, but there's no way (IMHO) anyone would get £2m for it then, so don't be surprised if it sells a lot quicker then.

Much of this in my opinion is based on trust, and indeed hope that promises can be delivered. The promises being made are, again in my own view, modest. I would not expect anyone, not Richard Atkinson, nor any private investor, should one have been accepted by the consortium, to come in and promise the earth. Massive increase in playing budget, talk of 'the next level', and top 6, Europe, challenging the Old Firm.

I'd be scared if we were looking at a Romanov, Mileson, Ridsdale, Mandaric here. The CIC and the people behind it do not scare me at all. If it's all about trust and hope - I've seen more than enough to trust these guys and give them a fair go.

[Glasgow Buddie]

Please see my other thread in the alternatives thread. As said I am not necessarily against the CIC, I possibly just need to be convinced further!

Edited as link not working!

Edited April 24, 2011 by Glasgow Buddie

[Eddy]

I would also quite like to know what will happen to the CIC money after the debt has been paid off.

Exactly how much of the £10 a month will actually go to St. Mirren?

Me too - in fact I've asked twice but have yet to receive a reply.

I'm worried that the majority of people believe that once the debt is paid off all monies coming in will be given to the football side and I don't think this is the case - I think it's more likely they'll be reinvested in community initiatives with a small percentage going towards the team (along the lines of rental of facilities etc)

I started off quite hopeful by all this CIC talk, but actually the more I read the less convinced I become.

[TsuMirren]

I'm worried that the majority of people believe that once the debt is paid off all monies coming in will be given to the football side and I don't think this is the case - I think it's more likely they'll be reinvested in community initiatives with a small percentage going towards the team (along the lines of rental of facilities etc)

As has been stated on here and at the meeting, it would be up to us...the community. It could be that we vote not to have any fees. I also believe there are certain guidelines around %'s of profit that must go to the club.

[Eddy]

As has been stated on here and at the meeting, it would be up to us...the community. It could be that we vote not to have any fees. I also believe there are certain guidelines around %'s of profit that must go to the club.

RA has stated that the board(s) could vote to give 'a percentage' to the club.

I want to know what happens to the rest of it (and keep in mind that means people who have no interest in the footballing side of the CIC voting to gove them money from 'their' funds).

[Guest somner9]

Howdy Pardners..

So the Mysterious stranger has addressed the villagers. He spoke well and when the mood amongst the gathering began to fade after the first 45 minutes employed that well known tactic of turning to humour in order to bring the gathering back onside. He has been told what onside and offside is - although having professed to have been always a football fan (where have you heard that old chestnut before? - maybe someone should tell his dad at Maxi), he should have known this anyway.

He is a salesman. There is no harm in this and he seems a decent hombre.

However his opening sentence said it all. ‘THIS IS ALL ABOUT A CIC’. That should really have been along the lines of THIS IS ALL ABOUT THE FUTURE STABILITY, WELFARE AND GROWTH OF ST. MIRREN FOOTBALL CLUB.

Sadly this comment only showed where his true interest lies. Again this does not make him a bad person, just a non-football fan who wants to use our club as a social experiment.

The villagers lapped up the good news. They love their club and want the very best for it. Even as those of us towards the back of the barn struggled now and again to hear at times, questions were asked for by the Stranger. When some of these became a bit intense a proposal from the floor to leave the questions until the end suited his preaching style, wonder where that skill was developed? Once more, no harm in that.

This had the effect of disengaging from some questions from a well-known newssheet and that new fangled wireless thing journalist who was obviously asking her questions in a particular way. From where we were sitting it was obvious that the top table were happy that this was stopped. The villagers seemed to appreciate it too although the two of us Magnificent 7ers (there’s still seven) in attendance could see why she was doing it. This is after all the pesky newssheet way. We don’t think she’s a dumb broad. Oops, sorry wrong soundtrack.

A villager sitting at the front spoke early on and said that if he had been a shareholder then he would have been raging at the lack of respect that has been shown to so many people that have put pesos into the club over the years. This is a fair point and perhaps a sign of times ahead. After all at the club AGM the Stranger, when pressed on this point by a shareholder assured the questioner that the shareholders would be consulted first. That when he earlier said they would hear of progress in the local press and through something called the media was just a slip of the tongue. This was just prior to the big boss taking the microphone, whatever that is, away from him for the first time. The answer and reasoning as to why this courtesy was not adhered to was extremely weak in response.

It is obvious to anyone with a sombrero that the CIC model has lots going for it. The magic word as you might expect is community. This is what the villagers are (literally) buying into. They are to be commended for caring about the community in the first place. It’s just a shame that St. Mirren FC is being used as an experiment to show that a vehicle designed for small to medium community projects is being used to PURCHASE SHARES AND CONTROL OF our football club. It was almost amusing to look around and see all the villagers discussing matters they will have no real control or say over, while the generals elsewhere rub their hands at the thought of all those locals doing the work for them and then paying for the privilege. Even when it was pointed out that we will have a raft of directors, THREE boards including the decision making EXECUTIVE BOARD and a process of management strata that ICI would be proud of all to run a fitba (as you Scots call soccer) team the villager present thought it was worth trying. Now some are saying that if it doesn’t work they will pull out after a year. That’s the point, doing that will bring potential disaster to our front door. That’s why the Stranger said that payments will be by direct debit. Any marketeer will tell you that folk are slow to cancel this type of payment. Others wanted to know what they get for their monthly payment. Surely that is against the spirit of all of this. You should be doing this for community, not to get something from it. This is the project’s weakness. Villagers will leave. Disillusionment will set in. Pressures will come onto the management structure of the club as opposing factions over THREE boards fall out … then? This is the human condition folks.

When another pesky villager asked what would happen when people lose interest, stop paying into the CIC and if it goes bust, the Stranger’s answer defied belief. ‘We will have a problem. We will just have to go back to the funders’. Read that again. This is akin to buying your house, defaulting on the payment then asking the building society for more cash! Bet you don’t fancy putting your club in that position. So if you sign up you damn well better expect to stay.

As for the funders, well they are a big secret. ‘We can’t tell you said the Stranger.’ A PUBLIC meeting and nothing is made public other than the sign up now message… better not mention we are seeking taxpayers’ dollars. Come on!

A local hero, someone the villagers know and trust was asked to introduce proceedings. If he didn’t know before as to why he is there he does now as the Stranger told the villagers that he wouldn’t have expected them to listen to him so that’s why the hero was brought on board!

The third member of the top table was no ranch hand from the Kibble Corral, no he is one of the top men. At one point during proceedings and in scathing tones he actually asked ‘why has this been left to us, it makes you wonder what the board (of SMFC) been doing for the last 10 years?’ Unbelievable. He said this sitting in a brand new football stadium OWNED by a Premier League football club and with a new training ground across town. What a lack of respect, breathtaking arrogance too. This is a proposal. NOTHING has been left to anyone.

In fact the Stranger had already explained that the entire CIC project was his idea. He explained this very clearly and well. He has clearly brought this hombre on board, so for the Kibble Kid to virtually claim that he has seen fit himself to pick up from the current board and by association claim any part in the concept is a bit rich. He was plainly playing to the gallery. Incredibly the villagers applauded this comment. Bad mouthing any board is always acceptable to fans of any club we suppose. Far from us 7 to defend the board but this is bluster at its best. We bet some slugs and a fistful of dollars that he wasn’t a season ticket holder in any of those previous 10 years he referred to! Is he even a Saints fan? That’s one dumb question to ask if he is. To claim the moral high ground in this manner is shocking. He was visibly annoyed at some of the other questions too.

Well, time to get back in the saddle. We’ll mosey on down to the saloon to discuss this more. No doubt you will too.

One parting shot for the moment.

Putting the club at risk is not acceptable. For fans to claim they will try this out and then leave puts the risk into sharp focus as does the only answer if all goes wrong and the £10k contributors – at the moment rumoured to contain FIVE of the current board and committed for one year only - decide to pull out. No wonder they too are a secret. It doesn’t matter what has been done at other clubs anywhere. This is St. Mirren and our club means too much to everyone to depend a house of cards like this for its survival. We have no debt. For a holding company to propose incurring debt to purchase the shares then to TRY to take on more debt if it doesn’t work out is no business strategy. And where is the football in all of this? Maybe the board should change THEIR minds and put their shares on the open market and allow the relative insurance of a mixed board to look after the club as it has done since we became a limited company. After all that is exactly what protected the club from Brealey. With the CIC there is no turning back.

Any more of this and we will have to make a movie!

…to be continued

i couldn't have put the case to be wary of this proposal better (maybe with 3 pages less dialogue)

A guy that admits to having no previous interest in football (other than the Glasgow City Ladies Football Cub) and a geezer from the Kibble (i thought that was where the bad yins got sent) who definetly wants a bar, but not bothered too much about FOOTBALL come up with a proposal to conduct an idealogical experiment of the social kind on our club. anyone can get in for a tenner a month, it's an open and transparent entity, unless you want to ask questions RE money, debt, and what do they actually commit to improve at SMFC. then it's a big secret!

i would only suggest anyone commited to putting in said tenner think why?

if it's an "open and transparent" process they keep dodging the same questions?

in the space of a couple of weeks it's been driven like a rampaging bull past the supporters without reasonable time for them to do their "due dilligence", but Mr Kibble, the BoD (stood at the post office waiting to cash the cheque) other corporate investors??? (that we are not allowed to know who they are) and a group of favoured community groups (that were on board before the supporters were given any info). have all had months to decide what they want to do?

it's the subject of a documentary (phew glad theres no outside influence)

for some reason people still believe they arent sigining up to a comapny that has at least £1m of debt

that because its the only offer the BoD has had to cash their chips in, that everyone should rush forward with their direct debits and shower them with cash

the supporters clubs are the last people to be briefed? (funny that, don't you think)

the finance side is "very complicated and secret" but just sign your direct debit anyway in case a "Sugar Daddy" runs in and throws millions of pounds at the club (aye right)

the keep talking about all these millions of "Sugar Daddies"

this has never been advertised, talked up locally, or even leafleted at home games (now we definetly don't want the supporters to ask questions about their club, which we want them to give us the money to buy, and its risk free???)

the proposal keeps alluding that its risk free! (it is if your either RA, Mr Kibble or the soon to be minted BoD)

at no point do they COMMIT to improving the on field activities

that they talk up the benefit to the community groups, but not the club

and finally, has anyone asked RA or Mr Kibbles whats in it for them????

[Stu]

Does everything the CIC members vote for have to be ratified by this executive committee? So if they decided to vote for lower ticket prices or for the club to move to the Moon, it wouldn't go ahead without the executive board's say so.

If so, is there anything stopping them knocking back that rejection then coming up with an idea of their own, such as raising ticket prices or opting for a move to Mars, without further input from members of the CIC?

[Guest somner9]

Does everything the CIC members vote for have to be ratified by this executive committee? So if they decided to vote for lower ticket prices or for the club to move to the Moon, it wouldn't go ahead without the executive board's say so.

If so, is there anything stopping them knocking back that rejection then coming up with an idea of their own, such as raising ticket prices or opting for a move to Mars, without further input from members of the CIC?

i think you,ve hit the nail on the head there. the blinkers need to come off RE who will actually control the club.

many seem to have overlooked the fact that the CiC and its board are not all St Mirren fans, and they will want things that have no benefit to st mirren and could be detrimental to the FOOTBALL club

[bud77]

i think you,ve hit the nail on the head there. the blinkers need to come off RE who will actually control the club.

many seem to have overlooked the fact that the CiC and its board are not all St Mirren fans, and they will want things that have no benefit to st mirren and could be detrimental to the FOOTBALL club

St Mirren Football Club Ltd will still be a separate company with it's own income and board of directors who will legally have to act in the best interest of St Mirren Football Club Ltd.

It seems that some people expect a multi millionaire to ride in on a black and white horse spend £2M of his own money on buying the club and put another few million into the team and keep doing that - isn't that similar to what David Murray has done at Ibrox ? Look at what's happening there now. We need something that can be sustained, it might be slow growth but it's better than the rise and fall of SMFC a la Gretna.

[TsuMirren]

RA has stated that the board(s) could vote to give 'a percentage' to the club.

I want to know what happens to the rest of it (and keep in mind that means people who have no interest in the footballing side of the CIC voting to gove them money from 'their' funds).

How on earth can you know what will happen to the rest of it if you don't know what community initiatives will be running at the time, what initiatives 10000 Hours might be working with or how any of those are going?

What will you be doing in 5 years time?

[TsuMirren]

many seem to have overlooked the fact that the CiC and its board are not all St Mirren fans, and they will want things that have no benefit to st mirren and could be detrimental to the FOOTBALL club

What utter nonsense!

Just what effect do you think that would have on their perception in the community? I think the greatest danger is actually from Saint Mirren fans who don't have a clue about how a club is run and just shouting over and over for investment. Let's have another 50K, yet another 50K, why can't we pay 100K for him or 80K for him. I'm not trying to have an ego or be a smart arse, but I have been there before and at times I wondered if the fans I was dealing with had watched a game or even read a single report on finances in their puff.

[FTOF]

What utter nonsense!

Just what effect do you think that would have on their perception in the community? I think the greatest danger is actually from Saint Mirren fans who don't have a clue about how a club is run and just shouting over and over for investment. Let's have another 50K, yet another 50K, why can't we pay 100K for him or 80K for him. I'm not trying to have an ego or be a smart arse, but I have been there before and at times I wondered if the fans I was dealing with had watched a game or even read a single report on finances in their puff.

Not that you actually get that type of poster contributing to this thread.

[bingboy]

Me too - in fact I've asked twice but have yet to receive a reply.

I'm worried that the majority of people believe that once the debt is paid off all monies coming in will be given to the football side and I don't think this is the case - I think it's more likely they'll be reinvested in community initiatives with a small percentage going towards the team (along the lines of rental of facilities etc)

I started off quite hopeful by all this CIC talk, but actually the more I read the less convinced I become.

Once the debt is paid off the CIC doesn't need the £10 per month. It will be up to the CIC members to vote on whether fees are still required and if so, how much of that should go to St Mirren FC.

Perosnally I wouldn't be happy at that stage to pay a fee unless it was all going to St Mirren FC and would withdraw my membership.

This question was answered at the meeting the other night. I know not everyone can make the meeting this Thursday but I would urge anyone with any misgivings abouth the CIC takeover to go along and ask the questions that are bothering them. I truly believe that Ritchard Atkinson et al have nothing to hide and will do their best to put your mind at rest.

[bingboy]

Does everything the CIC members vote for have to be ratified by this executive committee? So if they decided to vote for lower ticket prices or for the club to move to the Moon, it wouldn't go ahead without the executive board's say so.

If so, is there anything stopping them knocking back that rejection then coming up with an idea of their own, such as raising ticket prices or opting for a move to Mars, without further input from members of the CIC?

It was made quite clear at the meeting that the board of the football club can run it in any way it likes, as long as they achieve a balanced budget. So if we wanted to spend money on a new player, or reduce the cost of season tickets the football club board can do that as long as they can demonstrate to the Executive Board that we would still have enough income to match the costs.

So the Executive Board wouldn't be involved in making any football decisions, just financial ones.

[St. Sid]

For a completely neutral perspective......

I had to take my lad to a kids play centre party today, with a promised running time of 3 hours

To keep in touch with all things sporting, although officially under the guise of “doing work”, I brought along my laptop. Got talking with another Dad, and for such an affable, regular sort, it transpired he was a senior partner in a private investment bank. Luckily, he was a big fitba fan, and recalls seeing SMFC as a spotty teenager at Oldham !

I started talking about the CIC bid. I showed him the 10,000 hours site, and gave him as much background as possible, before asking him to have a quick trawl through the last few pages of the thread. His answers were quite interesting:

*Surprise at the proposal looking set to go through at SMFC given the current state of affairs compared to many other teams.

*Thought SMFC looked like a decent investment opportunity compared to most provincial sides, but that would need to be quantified when looking at the BoD asking price.

*Suggested BoD may be losing patience with no formal offers from other parties

*Said that at least one of the existing BoD should be on the new executive board to “guarantee some form of continuity and vital knowledge of current/past operational performance”

*Presumed that any negative press reaction to the issue of “public money” and pay-outs to BoD members (one or two then going on to be on the board) will have been identified already, and a suitable strategy is in place

Strangely, he thought that Yul Bryner made many valid points – in between p*ssing himself at the cod western dialogue He was only looking at it from a cold business perspective..........I said that this is no bad thing. I’m not going to expand upon this, as I will be derided/abused by the usual suspects. Until 2.10pm today, I was all for the bid. Now I am far from certain.

The guy is more qualified in these matters than virtually anyone else on this thread, and has no axe to grind with anyone. He just called it as he saw it., so I had to respect his views. I wish I hadn’t talked to him now .......

Bizarre post Fras. The only person you have to run the CIC model past is a stranger you met at a kids play centre party. Perhaps Yul Brenner was a cowboy clown there to entertain the other children. animal was of course part of the puppet show.

[TsuMirren]

Yeah, let's take advice from a banker...

[bingboy]

i couldn't have put the case to be wary of this proposal better (maybe with 3 pages less dialogue)

A guy that admits to having no previous interest in football (other than the Glasgow City Ladies Football Cub) and a geezer from the Kibble (i thought that was where the bad yins got sent) who definetly wants a bar, but not bothered too much about FOOTBALL come up with a proposal to conduct an idealogical experiment of the social kind on our club. anyone can get in for a tenner a month, it's an open and transparent entity, unless you want to ask questions RE money, debt, and what do they actually commit to improve at SMFC. then it's a big secret!

i would only suggest anyone commited to putting in said tenner think why?

if it's an "open and transparent" process they keep dodging the same questions?

in the space of a couple of weeks it's been driven like a rampaging bull past the supporters without reasonable time for them to do their "due dilligence", but Mr Kibble, the BoD (stood at the post office waiting to cash the cheque) other corporate investors??? (that we are not allowed to know who they are) and a group of favoured community groups (that were on board before the supporters were given any info). have all had months to decide what they want to do?

it's the subject of a documentary (phew glad theres no outside influence)

for some reason people still believe they arent sigining up to a comapny that has at least £1m of debt

that because its the only offer the BoD has had to cash their chips in, that everyone should rush forward with their direct debits and shower them with cash

the supporters clubs are the last people to be briefed? (funny that, don't you think)

the finance side is "very complicated and secret" but just sign your direct debit anyway in case a "Sugar Daddy" runs in and throws millions of pounds at the club (aye right)

the keep talking about all these millions of "Sugar Daddies"

this has never been advertised, talked up locally, or even leafleted at home games (now we definetly don't want the supporters to ask questions about their club, which we want them to give us the money to buy, and its risk free???)

the proposal keeps alluding that its risk free! (it is if your either RA, Mr Kibble or the soon to be minted BoD)

at no point do they COMMIT to improving the on field activities

that they talk up the benefit to the community groups, but not the club

and finally, has anyone asked RA or Mr Kibbles whats in it for them????

Why don't you go and ask them somner? I'm sure they'd be quite happy to tell you.

Clearly there are benefits for the Kibble in getting involved with St Mirren, and the CIC benefits from having organisations like the Kibble involved as it means we are more likely to deliver some of the social returns that would reduce some of the debt outstanding. The football club should benefit from more use being made of the facilities and hopefully some of the people who use them coming back again and maybe even attending some matches. This has all been said before but you don't want to believe it.

For Mr Atkinson the only thing I can see is the kudos of having made this model a success, an enhanced reputation and the likelihood that other organisations will want to use his expertise in their projects. I can certainly see no financial benefits to him directly from setting up the CIC or from it buying a controlling interest in St Mirren. If you think he can somehow withdraw money from the CIC into his personal bank account you are way off the mark.

You seem to be making out the support is being steamrolled into contributing to this without having time to consider it. Yet there are no deadlines imposed on memberships, no payments have been taken from anyone yet, public meetings are being held and there is a dedicated website that anyone interested can access. All they have been asking is that people pledge support so they can guage whether there is enough interest before proceeding. There's also a 10000 Hours group on Facebook, set up by Mr Atkinson. Why don't you join that and ask him your questions on there if you're not happy to ask him in person?

It's a bit chicken and egg here since they obviously didn't want to go to the fan base looking for their support until the finance was in place. If they had people like you would have been saying they haven't even got the funding in place yet they're looking for the money off us already.

We haven't had a home game since the point where Mr A decided he was certain enough to go public so maybe there will be leaflets - give them a chance.

I'm putting my tenner in because I think this is a real opportunity for the club to improve and for us to have a say in how it is run. I don't believe the present BOD has done enough to maximise the revenue for the club and this proposal is going to try and do that. That's its big selling point for me. As a football club we are not going to improve without more money. That money has to be recurring - one off lump sum capital injections won't work because once that is spent you find you can't sustain that level of expenditure and run into problems.

I'm putting my tenner in because I'm fed up watching teams like Falkirk and Motherwell outbid us for players.

I'm putting my tenner in because I want a St Mirren team to be proud of and not to be fighting relegation every year, with no hope that it will get any better. From reading your posts I think that's what you want too.

Edited April 24, 2011 by bingboy

[Stu]

It was made quite clear at the meeting that the board of the football club can run it in any way it likes, as long as they achieve a balanced budget. So if we wanted to spend money on a new player, or reduce the cost of season tickets the football club board can do that as long as they can demonstrate to the Executive Board that we would still have enough income to match the costs.

So the Executive Board wouldn't be involved in making any football decisions, just financial ones.

I'm fairly sure that was something we were told CIC members could vote on, now we hear it's going to be left up to the football club's board? What exactly do the CIC members get to vote on?