pozbaird Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Is that before or after you chased her up and down the street in a fire service vehicle while impersonating a police officer? Where's my superinjuction when I need it? Think it's in a drawer somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds10 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Where's my superinjuction when I need it? Think it's in a drawer somewhere. Sorry didn't realise we were in injuction territory. Have modified my original post to maintain your annonimity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) My concern from day 1 has been what happens if it fails? So far every one has been saying just give it a go, if it fails the shares go back up for sale, no harm done, the club is safe....... My concern is if it goes wrong the shares are up for sale by someone who doesn't give a toss about St Mirren FC, they will go to the highest bidder who may be borrowing from a bank to fund the purchase. Asked this question on the OS So the CIC goes tits up, the lenders can't touch the assets and the 52% goes up for sale to the highest bidder. What if the highest bidder, unlike the CIC, borrows money from the bank to buy the club? This then takes away all this 'secures the club forever' talk or am I wrong? Answer from 10000hours No you are not wrong, the "secures the club forever" talk comes from the "asset lock" law that comes with a Community Interest Company. If a CIC or similarly constrituted organisation does not own the club then whoever owns it can do what they like as they own the shares.This is why we have gone down the CIC route. Once the CIC owns the club (and provided it trades succesfully, which obviously the funders would not fund if they did not believe it both could and would) then the asset lock comes into place in terms of the CIC, obvioulsy once any element of borrowing is repaid to the funders (say it took 5years) then not only is the CIC "assest locked" but there are now no liabilties agianst the CIC so no way it could fail so the club assets are then locked and protected forever. If fans lose interest and it fails after a couple of years then there could be problems? If we were to get relegated next season, do you think we would hit the required level of subscribers? I genuinely doubt it. I'm still haven't made my mind up, I want it to work but deep down I am concerned. Edited May 30, 2011 by davidg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds10 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 My concern from day 1 has been what happens if it fails? So far every one has been saying just give it a go, if it fails the shares go back up for sale, no harm done, the club is safe....... My concern is if it goes wrong the shares are up for sale by someone who doesn't give a toss about St Mirren FC, they will go to the highest bidder who may be borrowing from a bank to fund the purchase. Asked this question on the OS Answer from 10000hours If fans lose interest and it fails after a couple of years then there could be problems? If we were to get relegated next season, do you think we would hit the required level of subscribers? I genuinely doubt it. I'm still haven't made my mind up, I want it to work but deep down I am concerened. I think it's definitely an issue. Although that's the situation that we are in at the moment surely. If the CIC doesn't take off then someone else will buy the shares, maybe securing any finance on the club. I suppose the secret will be on getting the community involved. The more people from outside the club that are involved the less the performance on the pitch will matter. One other good aspect of the CIC that you don't get with an ordinary buyer is that there will be some opportunity to attract new people to the club through community events and potentially grow the fan base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 One of my concerns is that, if the CiC were to fail and there were no offers for the club. Or at least none that suited. Would RA/the CiC board be able to sell the shares on the cheap? Perhaps even to themselves? Now. I don't know Richard from Adam and in no way suggest that he would do this but if it is possible then, feasably, 400+ fans and many businesses might pay a lot of money toward someone acquiring 52% of SMFC at a very reduced figure while the present consortium still managed to get away with their pockets fully loaded to the extent they wanted. This might constitute an incentive for someone to start the project to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 My concern from day 1 has been what happens if it fails? So far every one has been saying just give it a go, if it fails the shares go back up for sale, no harm done, the club is safe....... My concern is if it goes wrong the shares are up for sale by someone who doesn't give a toss about St Mirren FC, they will go to the highest bidder who may be borrowing from a bank to fund the purchase. Asked this question on the OS Answer from 10000hours If fans lose interest and it fails after a couple of years then there could be problems? If we were to get relegated next season, do you think we would hit the required level of subscribers? I genuinely doubt it. I'm still haven't made my mind up, I want it to work but deep down I am concerened. Good to see you got a reply on here as the q&a seems to be dead now. You make realy valid points concerning the cic ( which is why 10000hrs have responded). When Richard says "If we get relegated the club will suffer but the community dosn't go away" this seems to sugest there will be no downturn in support for the cic which is quite obviously wrong. It is VITALY important to this venture that this does NOT happen and the only way to achieve it is a bigger budjet for next season as we don't have any whipping boys in the league next season(Dunfermline announce their turnover will be £5M while ours is currently 3.4M). As we have no current investment in the team (which the cic will deliver from next season) how do we stay up Richard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud77 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 My concern from day 1 has been what happens if it fails? So far every one has been saying just give it a go, if it fails the shares go back up for sale, no harm done, the club is safe....... My concern is if it goes wrong the shares are up for sale by someone who doesn't give a toss about St Mirren FC, they will go to the highest bidder who may be borrowing from a bank to fund the purchase. Asked this question on the OS Answer from 10000hours If fans lose interest and it fails after a couple of years then there could be problems? If we were to get relegated next season, do you think we would hit the required level of subscribers? I genuinely doubt it. I'm still haven't made my mind up, I want it to work but deep down I am concerened. My answer would be that we press for it to be written into the CIC constitution that if the shares have to be sold at some time in the future then it has to go to a majority vote of members who they can be sold to, that way the people who care most about the club, us the fans, have input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 I think it's definitely an issue. Although that's the situation that we are in at the moment surely. If the CIC doesn't take off then someone else will buy the shares, maybe securing any finance on the club. I suppose the secret will be on getting the community involved. The more people from outside the club that are involved the less the performance on the pitch will matter. One other good aspect of the CIC that you don't get with an ordinary buyer is that there will be some opportunity to attract new people to the club through community events and potentially grow the fan base. That's the crucial thing as far as I'm concerned. The more people locally and not necessarily with any great interest in the football, getting in on this the better as far as I'm concerned. The club will obviously gain from having a wide member base but it should also benefit the community as a whole. This is surely the whole point of the thing? We, as St.Mirren fans probably have a narrower view on it as really all we want to see is the club thrive, but the CiC should be good for the local area, and it will have to be or it just won't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) It seems to me that there is an elephant in the room. We're all aware of it's presence, but seem to be relatively content in shuffling awkwardly past it while debating how many community and individual members the CIC is likely to attract. I can't see past the fact that the providers of the grants and 'soft loans' could well be getting cold feet as to how they might justify making a seven figure sum of what is essentially tax payers money available to effectively facilitate the purchase of a football club. In a climate of huge cuts to public services, there are likely to be significant PR implications, even if the money is ring-fenced for this type of initiative. Edited May 30, 2011 by Drew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 That's the crucial thing as far as I'm concerned. The more people locally and not necessarily with any great interest in the football, getting in on this the better as far as I'm concerned. The club will obviously gain from having a wide member base but it should also benefit the community as a whole. This is surely the whole point of the thing? We, as St.Mirren fans probably have a narrower view on it as really all we want to see is the club thrive, but the CiC should be good for the local area, and it will have to be or it just won't work. Yeah, but the success of the CIC on the basis of the Community will be wholly dependent on the elected boards having a much wider view than simply the football club. Consider this. Lets say we are talking about a local boys club football team and they would like the opportunity to play up to 8 matches at Ralston on the 3g pitch in return for their £500 membership- perfectly plausible especially in the winter and especially if a club is trying to catch up with league fixtures and wants to play midweek under floodlights. Now the football club won't get a penny from that deal and it may mean some cancelled training sessions for the pro youth youngsters. Will the elected members of the St Mirren Ltd Board see the bigger picture of the benefits of having those community groups involved at the club, or will they simply vote to say no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Yeah, but the success of the CIC on the basis of the Community will be wholly dependent on the elected boards having a much wider view than simply the football club. Consider this. Lets say we are talking about a local boys club football team and they would like the opportunity to play up to 8 matches at Ralston on the 3g pitch in return for their £500 membership- perfectly plausible especially in the winter and especially if a club is trying to catch up with league fixtures and wants to play midweek under floodlights. Now the football club won't get a penny from that deal and it may mean some cancelled training sessions for the pro youth youngsters. Will the elected members of the St Mirren Ltd Board see the bigger picture of the benefits of having those community groups involved at the club, or will they simply vote to say no? Of course. As it needs to be. I'm not remotely worried about the various scenarios to be honest. I guess there's no point in dealing with hypothetical situations until the various scenarios actually happen. There could well be scope for building other pitches and suchlike as well. The club has a fair bank of land doing nothing much at the moment anyway. But I do take the point that there will be various interested parties all with their own agendas and reasons for joining. Some will possibly work out well and others won't. It will be the nature of the beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) Yeah, but the success of the CIC on the basis of the Community will be wholly dependent on the elected boards having a much wider view than simply the football club. Consider this. Lets say we are talking about a local boys club football team and they would like the opportunity to play up to 8 matches at Ralston on the 3g pitch in return for their £500 membership- perfectly plausible especially in the winter and especially if a club is trying to catch up with league fixtures and wants to play midweek under floodlights. Now the football club won't get a penny from that deal and it may mean some cancelled training sessions for the pro youth youngsters. Will the elected members of the St Mirren Ltd Board see the bigger picture of the benefits of having those community groups involved at the club, or will they simply vote to say no? I'm guessing here Stuart, but if the scenario you painted panned out, and the elected CIC BOD voted to allow an external club, of any sort, to use St Mirren FC facilities at the expense of any St Mirren FC side - it would be a PR nightmare, and shouldn't be allowed. Again, just my opinion - but like the Life Church using the stadium facilities, it should be actively encouraged of course, but simply not at the expense of any possible St Mirren requirement to use that suite. The question has been rightly asked by many - pro CIC and anti-CIC.... Who is the horse and who is the cart in any future relationship. The football club simply must be of primary concern in my view. There's no hostile takeover going on, the CIC and the club need to work for the benefit of all, so like a marriage I suppose, there will no doubt be times where compromise is needed from both sides to make a situation work. Edit: Have a green dot for raising an issue that raises the bar from the level of debate I thought we were stuck at forever - IE... The CIC is magic, naw it isnae' it's crap and he's a charlatan...naw he isnae' he's brilliant...naw he isnae' he's a shyster.... etc. Edited May 30, 2011 by pozbaird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Some better posts there of the genuinely concerned supporters rather than the kill the CIC at all costs. I recognise the concern; however I don't share it. For me the CIC actually helps soften the impact of relegation if it were to happen. That is one of the positives the CIC delivers. There does seem to be a rather odd view that the club will somehow be under pressure from the banks should one of the soft loans be defaulted on. That is clearly not the case. So the idea that the club will be sold off to the highest bidder seems a long way off of reality even in a worse case scenario where the membership number dropped to 50% of that required. The idea that members dropping out when the next step in the process would be the club being sold off to the highest faceless bidder is a very silly one IMHumbleO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 It seems to me that there is an elephant in the room. We're all aware of it's presence, but seem to be relatively content in shuffling awkwardly past it while debating how many community and individual members the CIC is likely to attract. I can't see past the fact that the providers of the grants and 'soft loans' could well be getting cold feet as to how they might justify making a seven figure sum of what is essentially tax payers money available to effectively facilitate the purchase of a football club. In a climate of huge cuts to public services, there are likely to be significant PR implications, even if the money is ring-fenced for this type of initiative. I'm quite happy for the public sector to be utterly slashed back to nothing and for St.Mirren to directly benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Animal/Yule What makes you turn into paranoid disbelievers of a venture wich can only bring good to our club? A genuine and heart felt concern that this scheme will end in financial disaster and / or will allow Mr. Atkinson to gain control of the Club with out spending much of his own money. I know you have only very recently joined the forum - but try asking yourself - is this scheme all that it appears ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 A genuine and heart felt concern that this scheme will end in financial disaster and / or will allow Mr. Atkinson to gain control of the Club with out spending much of his own money. I know you have only very recently joined the forum - but try asking yourself - is this scheme all that it appears ? Is it Atkinson himself you have a problem with then? Are you saying he is dodgy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 A genuine and heart felt concern that this scheme will end in financial disaster and / or will allow Mr. Atkinson to gain control of the Club with out spending much of his own money. I know you have only very recently joined the forum - but try asking yourself - is this scheme all that it appears ? Well i only sjgned up to discuss the cic and yea it is. Theres one question i would like you 2 to answer. Why would a successful buisness man with a company 10 times the size of St Mirren risk damaging his reputation by pretending to offer something which then turns out to be a con and sees him sieze the club at the expense of the fans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Some better posts there of the genuinely concerned supporters rather than the kill the CIC at all costs. I recognise the concern; however I don't share it. For me the CIC actually helps soften the impact of relegation if it were to happen. That is one of the positives the CIC delivers. There does seem to be a rather odd view that the club will somehow be under pressure from the banks should one of the soft loans be defaulted on. That is clearly not the case. So the idea that the club will be sold off to the highest bidder seems a long way off of reality even in a worse case scenario where the membership number dropped to 50% of that required. The idea that members dropping out when the next step in the process would be the club being sold off to the highest faceless bidder is a very silly one IMHumbleO. Cum on Sid i'm just trying to get him to give us a slice of his massive bank account up front(we'll pay him back later) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) Cum on Sid i'm just trying to get him to give us a slice of his massive bank account up front(we'll pay him back later) I have a terrible picture in my mind that I am desperately trying to get rid of. Thanks for that post mate. Edited May 30, 2011 by pozbaird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 I have a terrible picture in my mind that I am desperately trying to get rid of. Thanks for that post mate. Yea I think i should refrain from visiting certain sites while i'm on here. The spelling should be (come)....(thank f**k the spelling police didn't get me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Maybe not well known facts 1 Although we will secure £800,000 of grants and £1.2M of loans some of the loan amount can be converted to grant if the interst in the venture exceeds the numbers set out. The community interest is key here with each group maybe 100 strong. 2 The tax payers allience/ daily express etc are barking down the wrong tree if they think the money is for the purchace of a football club. Funding bodies do contain tax payers money, but not all of them. The ones that do have a specific purpose which has to deliver results. An example would be child obesity. If the government do nothing to solve this particular problem then the NHS will be unable to meet the demands of healthcare in 2040. If they set aside funding(tax payers money) to tackle the problem now they can reduce the burden. A football club like St Mirren is an obvious choice to give funding to as a cic. 3 REA made some startling statements at the 2nd meeting, if you were there do you remember or do you want me to tell you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Is it Atkinson himself you have a problem with then? Are you saying he is dodgy? I would have a problem with anyone who want to take over my Club by getting its fans to pay off the debts he runs up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Well i only sjgned up to discuss the cic and yea it is. Theres one question i would like you 2 to answer. Why would a successful buisness man with a company 10 times the size of St Mirren risk damaging his reputation by pretending to offer something which then turns out to be a con and sees him sieze the club at the expense of the fans? I am pretty sure Mr. Atkinson's dad is the real Mr. Maxi. I am sure Mr. A will be very happy when gets control of a Premier League football club, an asset worth (it seems) over £4,000,000, for virtually nothing. Wouldn't you ? It seems to be well worth the risk to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 I am pretty sure Mr. Atkinson's dad is the real Mr. Maxi. I am sure Mr. A will be very happy when gets control of a Premier League football club, an asset worth (it seems) over £4,000,000, for virtually nothing. Wouldn't you ? It seems to be well worth the risk to him. Well you have got the first point right as it was REA's dad who founded the company. Now let me tell you a story. Richards dad had a dream of one day being able to have a successful company that once built up he would no longer be needed to oversee the operation on a day to day basis. This would allow him the time to do the things that really interested him without the pressures that come with running a company such as Maxi. He acheived his goal with his son taking over and the success story continuing with a now £35M turnover company with no bank debt. Richard now wants to follow in his fathers dream and due to the high tech nature of Maxi can acheive this at a much younger age (40 years old). His interest in St Mirren has come about in a truely unusual way as you would have heard (if you attended any meetings). You seem to think that St Mirren are a big cheese and can be used to make money. This is quite frankly bollocks. the only intention of REA is to cerate a community again in Paisley which when it happens will you come on here and admit you were wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ck1 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Maybe not well known facts 1 Although we will secure £800,000 of grants and £1.2M of loans some of the loan amount can be converted to grant if the interst in the venture exceeds the numbers set out. The community interest is key here with each group maybe 100 strong. 2 The tax payers allience/ daily express etc are barking down the wrong tree if they think the money is for the purchace of a football club. Funding bodies do contain tax payers money, but not all of them. The ones that do have a specific purpose which has to deliver results. An example would be child obesity. If the government do nothing to solve this particular problem then the NHS will be unable to meet the demands of healthcare in 2040. If they set aside funding(tax payers money) to tackle the problem now they can reduce the burden. A football club like St Mirren is an obvious choice to give funding to as a cic. 3 REA made some startling statements at the 2nd meeting, if you were there do you remember or do you want me to tell you? You get your information on this subject from where ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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