Jump to content

Why Have So Many Managers Failed?


Recommended Posts

I have been supporting St Mirren since the 1950s and in all of that time we have had a handful of successful managers, even arguably the most successful of all time in world football history (who we had the sole distinction of sacking) - others to varying degrees include Ricky MacFarlane, Jim Clunie and Tom Hendrie.

However, since around the time of the 1987 cup win, as a club, we have had the mentality of a provincial second division club, instead of that of a club representing the largest town in Scotland. Yes we have a modern stadium (fit for a second division club), have good training facilities at Ralston and are reasonably free of debt - but the heart and ambition has been gradually sucked out of St Mirren and its support.

Over this time, we have developed and nurtured an attitude of negativity and total lack of ambition. Yet we are one of the oldest and greatest clubs in Scotland, but under the stewardship of various boards of directors we have seen the likes of Ross County, Inverness Caley, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, St Johnstone and Hamilton Accies etc leave us lagging behind and now we are struggling to compete with the likes of Alloa, Livingston and dare I say Morton?

Both managers and players do not seem to achieve their full potential at our club and Murray is just the latest to fall short of expectations. This seems to be the only consistent aspect about St Mirren over the past 30 years or so.

Before we appoint the latest manager/victim we should pause to ask why this is the case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I will tell you why!

We have had successive BOD's who were full of there own importance, and not many Managers who would stand up to them and basically tell them what was required and push forward.

Willie Cuningham started the youth development program before he had to step down due to his wife's poor health. He then told Willie Todd who his predecessor should be ....... Sir Alex Ferguson. For once the BOD listen, appointed Ferguson who started to put things together and by the following season we were a balanced team.

Then our BOD turn turtle ...... sacked him and claimed he was going to Aberdeen anyway!

Our past and present BOD's have failed many times to listen. They don't even have time for the fans anymore ...... They know it all!

Sorry but we have had too many failings ......... very little success.

Only time will tell if our great team survives this crisis. I sincerely hope so, because if not, then we won't have a team to support.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unrealistic expectations - if you look at the all-time top division table for Scotland we're ninth and perhaps should be under Dundee Utd. who have only spent one season outside of the top flight since they first arrived back in around 1960. These days you have to include ICT and Ross County so in a 12 team top flight we're gonna struggle more often than not.

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/scotland/premiership/all-time-table

Apologies I have no idea why the link doesn't work, erm didn't work!

Some of the teams you mention as doing better than us have had massive strokes of luck

  • Motherwell - beneficiaries of league reconstruction in the '80's, went into receivership in 2002, walked away from their debt, and would've been relegated the following season if Falkirk had a SPL compliant ground
  • Ross County have a sugar daddy who subsidizes them
  • Kilmarnock would've been relegated in 93/94 in their first season in the top flight if they had not played an understrength Rangers side that had just won the League in their penultimate game and have just walked away from £10M of debt.
  • St. Johnstone - not luck but they benefit from having the most successful off-field activities of any of the minor Scottish clubs
  • Hamilton have spent the bulk of the last 30 years below us in the league and once Rangers and Hibs return to the top flight will struggle to maintain their status.
  • ICT - Fair do's they seem to have been better managed than us in general since our paths first crossed in season 99/00.

​In the last 30 years we've won two major trophies and spent more time in the top division than Dunfermline, Falkirk, Morton or Raith Rovers - teams I would say are of similar stature to ourselves. Sure this season is a major bummer but overall we're about par (sic) for the course.

Oh and regarding the sacking of Ferguson he was always going to Aberdeen that summer the mistake was the Board not accepting this and getting the maximum compensation available.

Edited by Bud the Baker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The accounts show the board is essentially balancing the books, breaking even each year. The money available for wages is more or less competitive, certainly to avoid relegation from the Premier League.

We did that for a long time, more or less sat in our place in the Scottish League. Danny and Gus did not fail as managers. You point out to the clubs ahead of us but for a long time we have been sitting well above teams of a comparable size as well: Falkirk, Dunfermline, Ayr United, Partick Thistle. Morton used to be our big rivals and have spent much of the past decade bumbling about in the third tier, while we were appearing in cup finals and sitting in top division. You cant say things have been terrible for us or our managers have been complete failures.

Tommy Craig was a terrible appointment, but it this point it also started becoming obvious our own squad just are not fit enough, and there may be bigger issues at work behind the scenes. I think there couple be more backroom coaching support, we fired our sports scientist a few years ago which doesn't seem to have done much good. I also get the sense there is a culture where players are allowed to undermine the manager. I don't have any inside info on this at all, but it seems odd for Gus, Lennon, Craig and Murray to all run in to similar problems with having some disruptive players in the squad, but maybe thats just modern football....

Overall however, I wouldn't say our managers have been any better or worse than any other club with the possible exception of St Johnstone who seem to have a production line of top quality gaffers.

There are some wider issues now that are holding us back as a club, not all directly falling at the managers door. I think if we are to improve we need to;

1. Have a dedicated fitness coach / sports scientist and sanction any players that fall below standards

2. Have a much improved scouting system or manager with better contacts. Marwood, Ball, Arquin etc being signed for the top league is just shocking.

3. Learn how to be a bit more clever as a selling club and ensure in future guys like McLean and McGinn can be sold to generate proper funds.

4. Improve the commercial department dramatically and again allow a percentage of this to be reinvested in the squad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm genuinely not sure what some of our fan base expect.

Almost 40 years of watching Saints, the vast majority of which has been spent in the top flight, has seen two major cup wins, two lower level cup wins (Anglo-Scottish and Challenge), three First Division championships (not just promotions) and some excellent European nights. What clubs of our size and financial wherewithal can claim better?

Yes, some of them are in better shape now but over the piece you have to take the rough with the smooth. Even the likes of Celtic (pre Fergus) and Rangers (early 80's under Greig and now) have suffered long term slumps. Who would have thought, in 1990, that Liverpool wouldn't have won another title for 25 years and counting when they had bagged 8 of the previous 10?

We're on the downside of the slope right now and should have the good grace to accept it when it comes. It's happened before and it will, undoubtedly, happen again.........to everyone.

Edited by DLBud
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The accounts show the board is essentially balancing the books, breaking even each year. The money available for wages is more or less competitive, certainly to avoid relegation from the Premier League.

We did that for a long time, more or less sat in our place in the Scottish League. Danny and Gus did not fail as managers. You point out to the clubs ahead of us but for a long time we have been sitting well above teams of a comparable size as well: Falkirk, Dunfermline, Ayr United, Partick Thistle. Morton used to be our big rivals and have spent much of the past decade bumbling about in the third tier, while we were appearing in cup finals and sitting in top division. You cant say things have been terrible for us or our managers have been complete failures.

Tommy Craig was a terrible appointment, but it this point it also started becoming obvious our own squad just are not fit enough, and there may be bigger issues at work behind the scenes. I think there couple be more backroom coaching support, we fired our sports scientist a few years ago which doesn't seem to have done much good. I also get the sense there is a culture where players are allowed to undermine the manager. I don't have any inside info on this at all, but it seems odd for Gus, Lennon, Craig and Murray to all run in to similar problems with having some disruptive players in the squad, but maybe thats just modern football....

Overall however, I wouldn't say our managers have been any better or worse than any other club with the possible exception of St Johnstone who seem to have a production line of top quality gaffers.

There are some wider issues now that are holding us back as a club, not all directly falling at the managers door. I think if we are to improve we need to;

1. Have a dedicated fitness coach / sports scientist and sanction any players that fall below standards

2. Have a much improved scouting system or manager with better contacts. Marwood, Ball, Arquin etc being signed for the top league is just shocking.

3. Learn how to be a bit more clever as a selling club and ensure in future guys like McLean and McGinn can be sold to generate proper funds.

4. Improve the commercial department dramatically and again allow a percentage of this to be reinvested in the squad.

5. Get shot of the eejits making all the piss poor decisions!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm genuinely not sure what some of our fan base expect.

Almost 40 years of watching Saints, the vast majority of which has been spent in the top flight, has seen two major cup wins, two lower level cup wins (Anglo-Scottish and Challenge), three First Division championships (not just promotions) and some excellent European nights. What clubs of our size and financial wherewithal can claim better?

Yes, some of them are in better shape now but over the piece you have to take the rough with the smooth. Even the likes of Celtic (pre Fergus) and Rangers (early 80's under Greig and now) have suffered long term slumps. Who would have thought, in 1990, that Liverpool wouldn't have won another title for 25 years and counting when they had bagged 8 of the previous 10?

We're on the downside of the slope right now and should have the good grace to accept it when it comes. It's happened before and it will, undoubtedly, happen again.........to everyone.

I expect a club of our tradition and fan base to experience at least a top six finish three or four times over 50 years.

My memory is not what it used to be, but I can't recall us finishing in the top half of the top league without going back to the era of Ricky MacFarlane and Jim Clunie - and that was not yesterday.

We have singularly failed to achieve what the likes of St Johnstone, ICT, Kilmarnock, Motherwell and even Dunfermline, with smaller fan bases, have in terms of

league success which is fair barometer of success.

I do accept that we have done ok in cup competitions over this time but that was more down to talented players at the time and not to us having an efficient, professional set up at St Mirren.

And yes clubs have their ups and downs - but we have known more downs than ups in terms of league success.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Totally balanced above, yes we are on the slide and for me there is one soul reason. The appointments of managers.

Danny Lennon- Was given a hard ask but clearly the BOD thought that with Danny;s style another manager could move us to Top 6. Ok I don't disagree with that, what I do disagree with was appointing TC, we then became laughing stock. Losing first 5 games and no goals. That was surely not the plan, why give him a 2 year deal? TC went the BOD not the other way around. Christ NL at Tic was on a one rolling contract?

Then when they finally ditch, we then get GT, no previous experience and he tried but no signings bar a Ross County reject.

Then IM, who had done-------------- eh F All. Kept a wee diddy team in the 2nd Tier. Wow. And he is paraded as the chosen one.

So as said above our lot is good, we do ok, we win, we lose, we get silverware, In my time as a Saints Supporter, seen Anglo, B&Q, and League Cup, plus a good few semi finals, 3 League wins, Europe and even Liverpool in the Centenary game.

But now its self destruction. You pay peanuts you get monkeys, either get a Saints man thru and thru. Like Thommo or someone like or get a good experienced pro like Calderwell.

Appoint Ferguson and its Brechin here we come

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't agree we need to experience downs.. Killie,motherwell etc have all been mainstays of the premier for a long long time. Our board did not value our place at the top table enough and let us slide by failing to appoint an experienced managet exactly a hear ago and then letting kenny leave for hee haw. The club is in the gutter at present. The support is dwindling and generally it's only the hard core mentalists that are turning out. It doesn't need to be this way and the board must repair this now by appointing a manager firstly who can start winning matches in a division we should be looking to do well in

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I expect a club of our tradition and fan base to experience at least a top six finish three or four times over 50 years.

My memory is not what it used to be, but I can't recall us finishing in the top half of the top league without going back to the era of Ricky MacFarlane and Jim Clunie - and that was not yesterday.

We have singularly failed to achieve what the likes of St Johnstone, ICT, Kilmarnock, Motherwell and even Dunfermline, with smaller fan bases, have in terms of

league success which is fair barometer of success.

I do accept that we have done ok in cup competitions over this time but that was more down to talented players at the time and not to us having an efficient, professional set up at St Mirren.

And yes clubs have their ups and downs - but we have known more downs than ups in terms of league success.

Kilmarnock have had over £10M worth of debt written off in recent years Motherwell & Dunfermline have been in receivership - Dunfermline are currently a division below us and Motherwell have benefitted from League reorganization and Falkirk having a non-compliant ground in 2003 that leaves two clubs from your list who have done better than us in 30 years without spending well in excess of what they brought in.

One misjudged managerial change (TC/GT/JG not necessarily in that order) followed by one which even if it didn't work out was supported by the vast majority at the time - it just shows how little margin for error there is for a club of our size - enjoy the good times while they're happening.

Edited by Bud the Baker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I expect a club of our tradition and fan base to experience at least a top six finish three or four times over 50 years.

My memory is not what it used to be, but I can't recall us finishing in the top half of the top league without going back to the era of Ricky MacFarlane and Jim Clunie - and that was not yesterday.

We have singularly failed to achieve what the likes of St Johnstone, ICT, Kilmarnock, Motherwell and even Dunfermline, with smaller fan bases, have in terms of

league success which is fair barometer of success.

I do accept that we have done ok in cup competitions over this time but that was more down to talented players at the time and not to us having an efficient, professional set up at St Mirren.

And yes clubs have their ups and downs - but we have known more downs than ups in terms of league success.

I'd like to have the odd top six finish too and don't believe that to be unreasonable, in fact I think we are the only team, maybe excluding Thistle, to have multiple years in the top flight without a top six finish.

That being said let's look at your argument.

Motherwell and Kilmarnock have significantly larger core fan bases than us and have almost bankrupt themselves chasing the top six dream. They also have stadia capable of whoring itself to the old firm when they come calling and that generates more revenue also.

St Johnstone are a good example of a well run outfit but they also benefit greatly from giving their stadium away to the old firm and multiple tayside derbies with the Dundee clubs. They've also got a cracking hospitality set up the generates income all year round.

Dunfermline? They're the classic cautionary tale. Spunked money away for years and are only now making their way back. They almost went bust too and are currently in the third tier. Not sure what their record is in terms of any modicum of success either.

I don't want us to go down again and feel with the right appointment we could be challenging again quickly but we need to be realistic about what our expectations are in the long term.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Totally balanced above, yes we are on the slide and for me there is one soul reason. The appointments of managers.

Danny Lennon- Was given a hard ask but clearly the BOD thought that with Danny;s style another manager could move us to Top 6. Ok I don't disagree with that, what I do disagree with was appointing TC, we then became laughing stock. Losing first 5 games and no goals. That was surely not the plan, why give him a 2 year deal? TC went the BOD not the other way around. Christ NL at Tic was on a one rolling contract?

Then when they finally ditch, we then get GT, no previous experience and he tried but no signings bar a Ross County reject.

Then IM, who had done-------------- eh F All. Kept a wee diddy team in the 2nd Tier. Wow. And he is paraded as the chosen one.

So as said above our lot is good, we do ok, we win, we lose, we get silverware, In my time as a Saints Supporter, seen Anglo, B&Q, and League Cup, plus a good few semi finals, 3 League wins, Europe and even Liverpool in the Centenary game.

But now its self destruction. You pay peanuts you get monkeys, either get a Saints man thru and thru. Like Thommo or someone like or get a good experienced pro like Calderwell.

Appoint Ferguson and its Brechin here we come

A "Saints man" is totally irrelevant, what we need is someone who can get us out this mess regardless of his background. The last thing we need is a sentimental approach right now !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been supporting St Mirren since the 1950s and in all of that time we have had a handful of successful managers, even arguably the most successful of all time in world football history (who we had the sole distinction of sacking) - others to varying degrees include Ricky MacFarlane, Jim Clunie and Tom Hendrie.

However, since around the time of the 1987 cup win, as a club, we have had the mentality of a provincial second division club, instead of that of a club representing the largest town in Scotland. Yes we have a modern stadium (fit for a second division club), have good training facilities at Ralston and are reasonably free of debt - but the heart and ambition has been gradually sucked out of St Mirren and its support.

Over this time, we have developed and nurtured an attitude of negativity and total lack of ambition. Yet we are one of the oldest and greatest clubs in Scotland, but under the stewardship of various boards of directors we have seen the likes of Ross County, Inverness Caley, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, St Johnstone and Hamilton Accies etc leave us lagging behind and now we are struggling to compete with the likes of Alloa, Livingston and dare I say Morton?

Both managers and players do not seem to achieve their full potential at our club and Murray is just the latest to fall short of expectations. This seems to be the only consistent aspect about St Mirren over the past 30 years or so.

Before we appoint the latest manager/victim we should pause to ask why this is the case.

The problem is that you are comparing the instantaneous positions of those clubs with the longer term trend of our own.

That's invalid in all sorts of way.

There isn't a single club outside of the big 3 or 4 who have consistently performed brilliantly over any sustainable period of time.

Only the OF have managed that.

Even Aberdeen have struggled since the 80's.

You are looking at this wrongly and you are not comparing our club with other clubs remotely fairly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem is that you are comparing the instantaneous positions of those clubs with the longer term trend of our own.

That's invalid in all sorts of way.

There isn't a single club outside of the big 3 or 4 who have consistently performed brilliantly over any sustainable period of time.

Only the OF have managed that.

Even Aberdeen have struggled since the 80's.

You are looking at this wrongly and you are not comparing our club with other clubs remotely fairly.

Those "like for like clubs" have consistently been above us most of that time.

And...

Aren't Aberdeen and Dundee Utd. now technically the OF given the death of one half of the "Old" OF?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as I'm concerned, this is a problem which has only arisen in the last 18 months.

Most of us were concerned when Tommy Craig was appointed because he had no history of being a successful manager.

We were proven right. Even without hindsight, this was a poor decision by the board and I think they acknowledge that.

Gary Teal was next and it looked for a while like he might get us out of trouble. In fact he ended up getting reasonably close before we fell away as the players cracked under pressure. IMO it was right to give him a shot and the board were right to give him till the end of the season.

They were also right in letting him go when they did.

Ian Murray has been a massive letdown.

A potentially brilliant signing with most fans over the moon about it at the time.

No way am I blaming the board for his disastrous reign and neither should anyone else.

IMO Murray signed his own death warrant with his attitude on almost day one.

That decision of his to play hardball over Sundays was IMO fatal.

How does a BOD plan for that sort of mistake?

They can't realistically.

So in the last 18 months the board can be criticised over one manager - Tommy Craig.

That's it.

Show me a board who doesn't make a mistake.

This constant navel gazing and self-flagellation has to stop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those "like for like clubs" have consistently been above us most of that time.

And...

Aren't Aberdeen and Dundee Utd. now technically the OF given the death of one half of the "Old" OF?

Yes and has been said above, Killie and Motherwell almost destroyed their clubs in doing so.

Ross County, St Johnstone and Hamilton have certainly not been outperforming us over the last 30 years.

They are doing so now only because Ross have a sugar daddy and Hamilton had a few million pound transfers.

We need to get this in perspective.

What we should be doing is looking at the Inverness and taking their best practices but they regularly have top 4 finishes and bottom 3 finishes so they are not the complete answer either.

If you want guaranteed success you need to be supporting Celtic or Rangers because absolutely no other team will give you that.

Edited by oaksoft
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A "Saints man" is totally irrelevant, what we need is someone who can get us out this mess regardless of his background. The last thing we need is a sentimental approach right now !

Its called my opinion, and its based on the fact that we need unity. In saying that drop the attitude ya tosserpunk.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unrealistic expectations - if you look at the all-time top division table for Scotland we're ninth and perhaps should be under Dundee Utd. who have only spent one season outside of the top flight since they first arrived back in around 1960. These days you have to include ICT and Ross County so in a 12 team top flight we're gonna struggle more often than not.

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/scotland/premiership/all-time-table

Apologies I have no idea why the link doesn't work, erm didn't work!

Some of the teams you mention as doing better than us have had massive strokes of luck

  • Motherwell - beneficiaries of league reconstruction in the '80's, went into receivership in 2002, walked away from their debt, and would've been relegated the following season if Falkirk had a SPL compliant ground
  • Ross County have a sugar daddy who subsidizes them
  • Kilmarnock would've been relegated in 93/94 in their first season in the top flight if they had not played an understrength Rangers side that had just won the League in their penultimate game and have just walked away from £10M of debt.
  • St. Johnstone - not luck but they benefit from having the most successful off-field activities of any of the minor Scottish clubs
  • Hamilton have spent the bulk of the last 30 years below us in the league and once Rangers and Hibs return to the top flight will struggle to maintain their status.
  • ICT - Fair do's they seem to have been better managed than us in general since our paths first crossed in season 99/00.
​In the last 30 years we've won two major trophies and spent more time in the top division than Dunfermline, Falkirk, Morton or Raith Rovers - teams I would say are of similar stature to ourselves. Sure this season is a major bummer but overall we're about par (sic) for the course.

Oh and regarding the sacking of Ferguson he was always going to Aberdeen that summer the mistake was the Board not accepting this and getting the maximum compensation available.

Good post. The reality is we do just fine for a club our size. Of course there will be fluctuations and bad seasons here and there, every club has them.

There are 4 clubs still in existence in Scotland who have won both the Scottish and League Cups in the last 30 years:

Celtic

Aberdeen

Kilmarnock

St Mirren

Not bad for an 'underperforming' club eh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have already acknowledged that we have done relatively well in cup competitions.

My main points are that :-

  • not since the reigns of Jim Clunie and Ricky MacFarlane (ie. 1978/83) have we achieved a finish in the top half of the top league. Surely it is not unrealistic to hope for a better league success rate than that over 35 years for the largest town in Scotland;
  • in general (there are a few exceptions) managers and players have consistently under-achieved at St Mirren in the past ten years or so in terms of league form/performance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have already acknowledged that we have done relatively well in cup competitions.

My main points are that :-

  • not since the reigns of Jim Clunie and Ricky MacFarlane (ie. 1978/83) have we achieved a finish in the top half of the top league. Surely it is not unrealistic to hope for a better league success rate than that over 35 years for the largest town in Scotland;
  • in general (there are a few exceptions) managers and players have consistently under-achieved at St Mirren in the past ten years or so in terms of league form/performance.

if size of town was of any relevance then we would still be in the lower half of the spl behind celtic, rangers, hearts, hibs, dundee utd, dundee, aberdeen, inverness and partick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have already acknowledged that we have done relatively well in cup competitions.

My main points are that :-

  • not since the reigns of Jim Clunie and Ricky MacFarlane (ie. 1978/83) have we achieved a finish in the top half of the top league. Surely it is not unrealistic to hope for a better league success rate than that over 35 years for the largest town in Scotland;
  • in general (there are a few exceptions) managers and players have consistently under-achieved at St Mirren in the past ten years or so in terms of league form/performance.

Six teams at least - Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs & Dundee Utd are all better supported than us and will have bigger budgets, we need one or more of them to underperform and for us to be the best of the rest to finish in the top half of the top division, factor in that we've been competing with teams spending beyond their means for much of this period until about 5 years ago (2 for Motherwell) when the penny finally dropped and the record is nowhere near as surprising as you're making out.

We have missed out on an opportunity with Rangers out of the top division since 2012/13, Hearts last season & Hibs for the last two to get a few high finishes and that is a major disappointment but 79-83 was probably the best sustained period of league form in the clubs history and an false unrealistic benchmark with which to measure our achievements.

Edited by Bud the Baker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Six teams at least - Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs & Dundee Utd are all better supported than us and will have bigger budgets, we need one or more of them to underperform and for us to be the best of the rest to finish in the top half of the top division, factor in that we've been competing with teams spending beyond their means for much of this period until about 5 years ago (2 for Motherwell) when the penny finally dropped and the record is nowhere near as surprising as you're making out.

We have missed out on an opportunity with Rangers out of the top division since 2012/13, Hearts last season & Hibs for the last two to get a few high finishes and that is a major disappointment but 79-83 was probably the best sustained period of league form in the clubs history and a false benchmark with which to measure our achievements.

What makes you say that?

Why shouldn't we be looking to get into the top six now and again - I am not saying that is what we should expect every season, but a club of our potential should be looking beyond the second or third tier of Scottish football, just now and again - especially when you recognise how second rate our national game is in general at the present time.

Don't you find it slightly disappointing that we have failed to finish in the top six for nearly forty years?

By your own yardstick, it would need the whole of the bottom half of the SPFL to over-achieve to stay above St Mirren.

My expectations of where St Mirren should be are based on potential support and a 'half-full' rather than 'half-empty' philosophy on life.

Maybe I am just naive!

Edited by northstbuddie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...