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Thread To Discuss An Independent Scotland.

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5 hours ago, stlucifer said:

The Independence referendum was fought along the lines of continued EU membership. Many "non  Scottish" residents/students were allowed to vote. I'm certain most, if not all, voted NO on the assumption that a YES vote would affect that status. Many young Scots did so also. Now that it would possibly work in completely the opposite way how do you think it would affect their decision?

Why would you deny the democratic right of those, and others, to make a choice under a new set of circumstances? It's not exactly a small change.

BinEK is right though - an Indy Ref 2 has no mandate. The SNP deliberately left it off it's manifesto because they knew it would cost them votes. I reckon the SNP would have to resign from Hollyrood en masse to force a new Holyrood election where they could put an indy ref 2 to the electorate before they could call a referendum. 

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1 hour ago, Stuart Dickson said:

There is absolutely no chance of Scottish Independence now. None at all. Perhaps if the referendum was yesterday when the pound was tumbling and some of the doomsday predictions were coming true, when there appeared to be knee jerk anger across Scotland and when people feared that Farage was going to take over the UK in some sort of coop, but none of that looks in any way likely now. The pound stabilised and was on the way back by lunchtime yesterday and the stock market followed. Many City of London experts were saying that this exit could be superb news for the UK as now the City of London would be able to trade freely without interference from the EU. I've even seen the changing mood amongst some of my nationalist friends on Social Media from wanting to throw themselves off the Forth Rail Bridge at 8am yesterday to seeing how this resilient nation will sort out all the problems and roar back stronger. I've even seen a growing number of comments from people saying that they voted Yes last time, but they would never do that again. 

Think about it this way. It'll take at least a year to 18 months to set up an independence referendum - that's assuming that it would be perceived as lawful to do so given that there is no mandate for a referendum from the Scottish electorate. By that time all the bumps will have been ironed out, the UK will have set up the various trade deals, people will know the sky hasn't fallen down and we'll have seen the change have very little effect on our day to day lives. We'll also have seen the EU in meltdown, at least one more massive Greek bailout that we'll have managed to dodge a bullet from since we're leaving, we'll also probably have seen other EU states demanding their own EU referendums with there being every possibility others will want to leave the club too. There's also a very strong possibility that the Scottish economy will still be extremely weak because of low oil prices, and possibly lower than usual whisky export figures whilst trade deals get sorted. You'd have to have your hatred of the English pretty heavily ingrained to want to vote to leave the UK especially since any deal with the EU would obviously have to mean adopting the Euro as your currency. 

I have to admire your confidence.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

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1 hour ago, Stuart Dickson said:

BinEK is right though - an Indy Ref 2 has no mandate. The SNP deliberately left it off it's manifesto because they knew it would cost them votes. I reckon the SNP would have to resign from Hollyrood en masse to force a new Holyrood election where they could put an indy ref 2 to the electorate before they could call a referendum. 

:lol:

Aye alright. Keep dreaming.

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BinEK is right though - an Indy Ref 2 has no mandate. The SNP deliberately left it off it's manifesto because they knew it would cost them votes. I reckon the SNP would have to resign from Hollyrood en masse to force a new Holyrood election where they could put an indy ref 2 to the electorate before they could call a referendum. 

Oh yes there is, ignoring this won't make it go away so, for the second time, here it is, under 'Scotland's Future'

http://www.snp.org/the_snp_2016_manifesto_explained

Pretty straightforward you'll agree.

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Its true though Oaksoft. If Scotland ever votes to go independent we better hope the country can afford all the lobotomies that would be needed. 

This makes even less sense than most of your posts.

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4 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:

Oh yes there is, ignoring this won't make it go away so, for the second time, here it is, under 'Scotland's Future'

http://www.snp.org/the_snp_2016_manifesto_explained

Pretty straightforward you'll agree.

1.6 million Scots voted to stay in 

1.0 million Scots voted to leave

1.3 million didn't vote at all. 

You're not being taken out of the EU against your will. Most folk didn't give a f**k either way or wanted to leave. And there is no demonstrable evidence that the majority of Scots want another referendum 

Edited by Stuart Dickson

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Farage was going to take over the UK in some sort of coop ...

... possibly lower than usual whisky export figures whilst trade deals get sorted.

Farage was going to open a shop?

We, at this moment, are still in the EU and therefore still have trade deals. What are you going on about?

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1.6 million Scots voted to stay in 

1.0 million Scots voted to leave

1.3 million didn't vote at all. 

You're not being taken out of the EU against your will. Most folk didn't give a f**k either way or wanted to leave. And there is no demonstrable evidence that the majority of Scots want another referendum 

There's that straw clutching again....

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20 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Crrrriiiiiiinnnnnngge.

How on earth can we expect ZA to get his head out of his own arse when he has you in the way, half way up his colon.

:lol:

Typical reply from you. I have made my views on the EU many times. It's an undemocratic clusterf**k of the highest order and has been on the road to implosion for years. Now that one of the few net contributors has finally been forced out by their own electorate, that implosion is coming sooner. Now, if you do understand written English, you might just might start to comprehend that my opinion of the EU could hardly be more diametrically opposed to ZA's. But I defend freedom of speech and am happy to have dialogue with anyone once they stop flinging round insults, especially with childish sexual innuendo thrown in to boot.

The clusterf**k that is Europe is nothing short term to that of old UK when the barriers go up in Gretna and Newry. The SNP are continuing to whore themselves to Brussels and that will backfire on them. You are one of the few who have admitted that you would take independence at any cost and that is your right. I wonder though if there are not a lot of SNP voters out there who are feeling just a tad uncomfortable about Nicola Sturgeon making it clear that she wants to ingratiate herself to Europe at every opportunity. It's a busted flush.

PS I fully expect you to say that I have used sexual innuendo above. I have but it's not directed at an individual.

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Let's face it people's view on the mandate argument pretty much depends on where they stand on independence.

 

I think Thursday's result gives a mandate for a second Independence referendum and that if Westminster denies a quick one within the 2 year Brexit timespan then that'll just polarize things even further and we'll have one (and a more bitter one at that) after the next set of Holyrood/General elections.

 

As that great Scottish patriot MacBeth said "If it were done when 'tis done then 'twere well it were done quickly:"

 

I voted Remain on Thursday, didn't want this scenario but even less do I want to remain (sic) in the UK of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

Edited by Bud the Baker

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5 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Let's face it the people's view on the mandate argument pretty much depends on where they stand on the independence vote.

 

I think Thursday's result gives a mandate and that if Westminster denies a quick one within the 2 year Brexit timespan then that'll just polarize things even further and we'll have one (and a more bitter one at that) after the next set of Holyrood/General elections.

 

As that great Scottish patriot MacBeth said "If it were done when 'tis done then 'twere well it were done quickly:"

 

I voted Remain on Thursday, didn't want this scenario but even less do I want to remain (sic) in the UK of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

Good post. I don't vote but my position was that my heart said leave but my head said stay. Listen to the jungle drums coming from Europe and America. It wasn't a fear campaign that Cameron & Co were spreading. It was the truth. I felt we could afford to hold on for a year or two until Europe expired which would have prevented the nastiness, but so be it. Does everyone who thinks a debate at least about immigration should be on the agenda a racist? I don't think so.

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14 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Let's face it the people's view on the mandate argument pretty much depends on where they stand on independence.

 

I think Thursday's result gives a mandate for a second Independence referendum and that if Westminster denies a quick one within the 2 year Brexit timespan then that'll just polarize things even further and we'll have one (and a more bitter one at that) after the next set of Holyrood/General elections.

 

As that great Scottish patriot MacBeth said "If it were done when 'tis done then 'twere well it were done quickly:"

 

I voted Remain on Thursday, didn't want this scenario but even less do I want to remain (sic) in the UK of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

If we leave the UK this time there will be no if's or but's about the Pound , it will definitely be the Eu*o for us . I believed that Alex would have secured the Pound the last time but if we force the issue again and the rest of the UK leave , l'll guarantee we get the Eu*o. .

I still don't get the SNP fascination with Europe, considering the way they have f**ked the economy of other small countries  . Even at the conference in the Hydro in November 2014 Alex and Sturgeon were both shouting for it . .

I wonder if it has anything to do with Alex's unhealthy friendship with that c**t Murdoch. .

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On ‎26‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 8:34 AM, saintnextlifetime said:

If we leave the UK this time there will be no if's or but's about the Pound , it will definitely be the Eu*o for us . I believed that Alex would have secured the Pound the last time but if we force the issue again and the rest of the UK leave , l'll guarantee we get the Eu*o. .

I still don't get the SNP fascination with Europe, considering the way they have f**ked the economy of other small countries  . Even at the conference in the Hydro in November 2014 Alex and Sturgeon were both shouting for it . .

I wonder if it has anything to do with Alex's unhealthy friendship with that c**t Murdoch. .

For me it is about an alternative to approaching 40 years of centre/centre right/right wing government in the UK and to repeat my previous post the desire to "exit the Br" of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson which makes me shudder - and not with pleasure.

I feel confident that an "Independence within Europe" stance would win, it's hard to see English politicians showing much enthusiasm to keep us and it would be contradictory for any of the them who campaigned to leave the EU to do so (Farage practically told us to F-off if that was what we wanted back in 2014), you can't imagine the three main party leaders coming together again like they did on the final Sunday before the Independence referendum when the polls were showing a swing to a Yes vote.

It wouldn't be perfect but I believe it's the best option.

 

*****************

I was watching a "Reaction to Brexit from other EU countries" feature this morning and a guy from the RoI said it was great news for them as they'd be the only English speaking country in the EU - who's to say we wouldn't benefit tremendously from ditching our southern neighbours?

Edited by Bud the Baker

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2 hours ago, RickMcD said:

Typical reply from you. I have made my views on the EU many times. It's an undemocratic clusterf**k of the highest order and has been on the road to implosion for years. Now that one of the few net contributors has finally been forced out by their own electorate, that implosion is coming sooner. Now, if you do understand written English, you might just might start to comprehend that my opinion of the EU could hardly be more diametrically opposed to ZA's. But I defend freedom of speech and am happy to have dialogue with anyone once they stop flinging round insults, especially with childish sexual innuendo thrown in to boot.

The clusterf**k that is Europe is nothing short term to that of old UK when the barriers go up in Gretna and Newry. The SNP are continuing to whore themselves to Brussels and that will backfire on them. You are one of the few who have admitted that you would take independence at any cost and that is your right. I wonder though if there are not a lot of SNP voters out there who are feeling just a tad uncomfortable about Nicola Sturgeon making it clear that she wants to ingratiate herself to Europe at every opportunity. It's a busted flush.

PS I fully expect you to say that I have used sexual innuendo above. I have but it's not directed at an individual.

 

I agree Nicola Sturgeon wants Scotland to be in the EU. As leader of the SNP, clearly she wants Scotland to be independent. So, if she suddenly turned around and said, 'you know, I have to admit it,  the EU is an undemocratic clusterfcuk, and clearly the UK is a disintegrating clusterfcuk heading for BoJo in charge... so I've changed my position, I want Scotland to be independent, out of the UK, and also out of the EU, fcuk the lot of them, it's just us....'

Where would that leave us, leave her, leave her party? She cannot possibly take an 'out of the UK AND the EU' stance.

I don't know what position she is supposed to take. Damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, but hey, that's the gig she wanted all her life, so she needs to deal with it. What position would you suggest she, as leader of a strong SNP under current fcuked-up circumstances takes?

My opinion is I'm not sure what alternative position she could take as things stand. It seems to me that while the EU is far from perfect, increasingly, England could find itself being the leper of Europe. I've had a look at the way many of the big European newspapers reported Brexit. As a prime example, Germany's 'Bild' pretty heavily featured 'Scotland said remain' stories. Same happened elsewhere.

In so many areas, Scotland is so clearly completely different from our increasingly fractured ToryBoy lead neighbours to the South. I don't really want us to be aligned with them any longer. No position Sturgeon takes is perfect, but independence in Europe, would provide Scotland with a better future than being stuck with the clusterfcuk that is England... IMHO.

I'm prepared to put my trust in the Scottish people, and if we were in the EU, for example, who's to say that a city like Edinburgh, already a strong financial centre, wouldn't position itself as a gateway to the EU market, to rival Amsterdam and Frankfurt. London is in danger of losing a lot of its clout and prestige. We could use our position to our advantage to make Scotland a good place to do business in Europe. Maybes aye, maybes naw, but everything is a gamble right now. It's all fcuked-up. Might not be perfect, an independent Scotland in Europe, but what is perfect? Nada, zilch, no option is all sweetness and light, never will be.

 

Edited by pozbaird

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Pound or Euros or Dollar , etc ............

What does it matter ?

Could somebody explain to me ?

We are heading for a cashless society anyway.

Am I just daft ? :blink:

Money isn't real,

It's all a sham

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For me it is about an alternative to approaching 40 years of centre/centre right/right wing government in the UK and to repeat my previous post the desire to "exit the Br" of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson which makes me shudder - and not with pleasure.

I feel confident that an "Independence within Europe" stance will win, it's hard to see English politicians showing much enthusiasm to keep us and it would be contradictory for any of the them who campaigned to leave the EU to do so (Farage practically told us to F-off if that was what we wanted back in 2014), you can't imagine the three main party leaders coming together again like they did on the final Sunday before the Independence referendum when the polls were showing a swing to a Yes vote.

It wouldn't be perfect but I believe it's the best option.

 

*****************

I was watching a "Reaction to Brexit from other EU countries" feature this morning and a guy from the RoI said it was great news for them as they'd be the only English speaking country in the EU - who's to say we wouldn't benefit tremendously from ditching our southern neighbours?

Really Bud? An alternative to right wing government? Have you had a look round European politics? In Germany Merkel, more right wing than Cameron, is practically untouchable. In France the Socialist government is unlikely to survive the next election and there's a real possibility of Le Pens National Front - more right wing than the BNP - taking office. In Austria and Poland far right politics is on the rise. In Sweden the far right hold the balance of power currently and in Denmark their right wing government is heavily influenced by a popular far right party. And in Greece the most violent right wing party in Europe, Golden Dawn, with a leader who says he admires Hitler, is the third most popular party with a growing membership and increase popularity.

Now I voted Remain and stated, as did you, that I didn't care about the outcome but if your motive is avoiding right wing politics the EU is the last place you should be looking.

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3 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Really Bud? An alternative to right wing government? Have you had a look round European politics? In Germany Merkel, more right wing than Cameron, is practically untouchable. In France the Socialist government is unlikely to survive the next election and there's a real possibility of Le Pens National Front - more right wing than the BNP - taking office. In Austria and Poland far right politics is on the rise. In Sweden the far right hold the balance of power currently and in Denmark their right wing government is heavily influenced by a popular far right party. And in Greece the most violent right wing party in Europe, Golden Dawn, with a leader who says he admires Hitler, is the third most popular party with a growing membership and increase popularity.

Now I voted Remain and stated, as did you, that I didn't care about the outcome but if your motive is avoiding right wing politics the EU is the last place you should be looking.

Some specific points -

Merkel more right wing than Cameron - Merkel is a Christian Democrat who are generally considered centre-right as opposed to Cameron who is Conservative and just plain old right wing.

The French NF might be the largest single party in the first round like 2014/15 but in the second round when it's a run-off between the top two they'll lose as they always do.

The current Swedish coalition government is centre left/green, there are no parties in the Swedish parliament that would be considered far right like UKIP or the French NF.

**************

As I've stated above I'm under no illusion that the EU and it's parliament is perfect but it's a better option than Westminster and the Tories who in the last election moved to the right to attract UKIP voters and contain the deeply unpalatable Britannia Unchained faction who already have a member, Priti Patel, at Cabinet level (unlike the far right in Denmark). The UK Conservative Party is currently the most right wing party in government within the EU and it looks to be heading even further from the centre in reaction to Thursday's result ahead of it's departure.

I'm happy with NS's current strategy.

 

 

 

Edited by Bud the Baker

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History always repeats itself. Sturgeon attempting to negotiate with the EU has echos of this....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-to-nazi-plan-1-1103305

LOL you scraping the Barrow looking for dregs go watch the football to take your mind off things you can't handle lol.

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History always repeats itself. Sturgeon attempting to negotiate with the EU has echos of this....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-to-nazi-plan-1-1103305

LOL you scraping the Barrow looking for dregs go watch the football to take your mind off things you can't handle lol.

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