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Scotland v Czech Republic Euros 14/6/21

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2 minutes ago, guinness said:

Has Paterson ever played in the style Scotland play? Think the daily record picked this squad

It's a good question, I just think he's a better option than a Motherwell right back, it's a position we really struggle with. 

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15 minutes ago, guinness said:

Has Paterson ever played in the style Scotland play? Think the daily record picked this squad

Perhaps not but from what I’ve seen of him I think he’d be even more suited to a RWB role than RB in a flat back 4 (assuming that’s what you were getting at). 
I just believe that we are in no position to ignore talent because they are “too young/too inexperience” etc. That classic old Scottish bullshit that has got us nowhere in the last 30 years. Especially when the incumbent in that position isn’t any great shakes. Throw the dice for christ’s sake. 

Also, completely disagree with your comment about the DR picking the squad. On the contrary I think I can say for the first time ever, barring Gauld for Fleck, that is exactly the squad I’d have wanted. 

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Just now, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Perhaps not but from what I’ve seen of him I think he’d be even more suited to a RWB role than RB in a flat back 4 (assuming that’s what you were getting at). 
I just believe that we are in no position to ignore talent because they are “too young/too inexperience” etc. That classic old Scottish bullshit that has got us nowhere in the last 30 years. Especially when the incumbent in that position isn’t any great shakes. Throw the dice for christ’s sake. 

Also, completely disagree with your comment about the DR picking the squad. On the contrary I think I can say for the first time ever, barring Gauld for Fleck, that is exactly the squad I’d have wanted. 

No real arguments with your last paragraph although I think I'd have been tempted to find a spot for Griffiths at the expense of either Christie or Forrest as attacking options....he's the closest we've got to a natural finisher and to have him to throw on for the last 20 minutes if we're chasing a game would imo have been a worthwhile gamble.

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28 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Gilmour, while I think has potential, hasn't played nearly enough to merit a place, especially in front of Gauld who's played all season and chipped in with quite a few goals. 

As I said yesterday, there will always be a few "shocks" but I trust the manager. 

I think to some extent you have to factor in who the respective players are playing for. With respect to Gauld, he’s playing for relegation fodder in the Portuguese League whereas as Gilmour plays for one of the top teams in the EPL. Purely hypothetical, but I’d hazard a guess that Gilmour would star for Farense too. 
So unless you are suggesting he might be in some way unfit to play (which I completely wouldn’t agree with), then my view is firmly if he’s good enough, get him in. International fitba is littered with players who play for big clubs that often don’t get a lot of game time. Doesn’t stop them starring for their country. 
But as I’ve already said, I’m with you on Gauld, I’d have had him in too. 

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1 hour ago, WeeBud said:

No real arguments with your last paragraph although I think I'd have been tempted to find a spot for Griffiths at the expense of either Christie or Forrest as attacking options....he's the closest we've got to a natural finisher and to have him to throw on for the last 20 minutes if we're chasing a game would imo have been a worthwhile gamble.

Completely agree, worth the risk he brings a wee bit of the magic he's capable of. Christie for example has offered very little this season at club level as well. 

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3 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Completely agree, worth the risk he brings a wee bit of the magic he's capable of. Christie for example has offered very little this season at club level as well. 

Christie, I suppose, has at least been fit and I thought he looked better for Scotland than he did for Celtic this season. It's an odd one for me as it's any two of Griffiths, Christie or Forrest and there all different types of players.......Griffiths and one other for me but not too fussed which.

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2 hours ago, WeeBud said:

No real arguments with your last paragraph although I think I'd have been tempted to find a spot for Griffiths at the expense of either Christie or Forrest as attacking options....he's the closest we've got to a natural finisher and to have him to throw on for the last 20 minutes if we're chasing a game would imo have been a worthwhile gamble.

Ryan Christie has scored 4 in 18 for Scotland.

Leigh Griffiths has scored 4 in 22.

On that basis alone, Christie is a better option. He also works harder and is fitter and full of confidence.

Forrest is just back from injury but IMO is still a better option that Griffiths.

I think it's game over at international level for him now.

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14 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Ryan Christie has scored 4 in 18 for Scotland.

Leigh Griffiths has scored 4 in 22.

On that basis alone, Christie is a better option. He also works harder and is fitter and full of confidence.

Forrest is just back from injury but IMO is still a better option that Griffiths.

I think it's game over at international level for him now.

As disappointing as it is to say, I’d have to agree with this.

 

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53 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Ryan Christie has scored 4 in 18 for Scotland.

Leigh Griffiths has scored 4 in 22.

On that basis alone, Christie is a better option. He also works harder and is fitter and full of confidence.

Forrest is just back from injury but IMO is still a better option that Griffiths.

I think it's game over at international level for him now.

After this summer I'd agree Oaky but given a free-kick to hit or a penalty to take in a three game mini-league and then knock-out competition I'd still take Griffiths in the short term. He's a striker rather than an attacker which makes him different to the other two.

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36 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

After this summer I'd agree Oaky but given a free-kick to hit or a penalty to take in a three game mini-league and then knock-out competition I'd still take Griffiths in the short term. He's a striker rather than an attacker which makes him different to the other two.

In fairness to Forrest, historically he’s been no stranger to the onion bag. A particularly good example being his majestic hat trick against Israel. His double away to Albania wasn’t bad either.

The question is whether he still has it post injury I suppose. 

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I understand the calls for Griffiths. We all remember his free kicks against England, but maybe Steve Clarke feels that he could be a disruptive figure around the squad. He has had his fair share of off field problems. This squad could be together for a month. That’s a long period to be cooped up. I’d want guys who are hungry and champing at the bit to take part in this tournament.
We have some real hard workers and good characters in that squad.
Strachan once commented on the manners of John McGinn where he got off the bus and rather than wander off with the squad he stayed to help the back room staff with all the training gear. Strachan said that McGinn would go far in the game and he has been proved right.

As Fitzy once said:

“Hard work beats Talent, when Talent does not work hard!”

And that’s why imho Griffiths has not been picked.

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11 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

In fairness to Forrest, historically he’s been no stranger to the onion bag. A particularly good example being his majestic hat trick against Israel. His double away to Albania wasn’t bad either.

The question is whether he still has it post injury I suppose. 

I hate to burst your bubble but apart from that wee spell Forrest hasn't scored a single goal in 9 appearances, and hadn't scored in his previous 21. :lol:

I'd put him in the "flatters to deceive" category at best. 

I'm with @WeeBud on Griffiths, knows where the goal is and has a talent that not many, if any, in the Scotland team don't posses up front. 

As for the boy Gilmour, he's had less than 270 minutes in the league for Chelsea and, again I think he's got talent, he seems to be becoming a player who gets better when he's not played.

It would be unfair to criticise him for contributing next to nothing in these few brief spells as that's what being match fit gives you. 

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13 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

I hate to burst your bubble but apart from that wee spell Forrest hasn't scored a single goal in 9 appearances, and hadn't scored in his previous 21. :lol:

I'd put him in the "flatters to deceive" category at best. 

I'm with @WeeBud on Griffiths, knows where the goal is and has a talent that not many, if any, in the Scotland team don't posses up front. 

As for the boy Gilmour, he's had less than 270 minutes in the league for Chelsea and, again I think he's got talent, he seems to be becoming a player who gets better when he's not played.

It would be unfair to criticise him for contributing next to nothing in these few brief spells as that's what being match fit gives you. 

Not sure I follow you there FS. Griffiths has scored less that Forrest so I’m a wee bit lost with your point. 
Anyway, neither of us is right and neither of us is wrong. We have a difference of opinion. It’s allowed. There’s no evidence to prove a definitive case either way. Arguing about who is better in a Scotland sense between these two players, is akin to two bald men fighting over a comb.

I do however completely disagree with you on the inclusion of Billy Gilmour. This “match fit” notion only goes so far. Sometimes people are just too good to be left out. Even if Gilmour isn’t the finished article yet, I believe he definitely will be and that it’s absolutely the correct decision to blood him in this squad at such a young age. I’d rather have him in the squad not featuring, than some old player who isn’t the future not featuring. 
Opinions Opinions. 

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16 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Not sure I follow you there FS. Griffiths has scored less that Forrest so I’m a wee bit lost with your point. 
Anyway, neither of us is right and neither of us is wrong. We have a difference of opinion. It’s allowed. There’s no evidence to prove a definitive case either way. Arguing about who is better in a Scotland sense between these two players, is akin to two bald men fighting over a comb.

I do however completely disagree with you on the inclusion of Billy Gilmour. This “match fit” notion only goes so far. Sometimes people are just too good to be left out. Even if Gilmour isn’t the finished article yet, I believe he definitely will be and that it’s absolutely the correct decision to blood him in this squad at such a young age. I’d rather have him in the squad not featuring, than some old player who isn’t the future not featuring. 
Opinions Opinions. 

You don't see my point?

Let me retrace my steps here, you said..............

52 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

In fairness to Forrest, historically he’s been no stranger to the onion bag. A particularly good example being his majestic hat trick against Israel. His double away to Albania wasn’t bad either.

I then pointed out he's scored the grand total of feck all since, and had scored feck all in the previous 21 games.

5 goals in 35. (one every 7 games)

Griffiths, hardly prolific, has scored 4 from 22. (one in every 5.5 games) 

If you think having scored one more goal in and additional 13 games puts him above Griffiths I think you're having a laugh. :lol:

I doubt you've "seen" enough of Gilmour, especially as he's been warming the bench for the vast majority of the season, to make such a strong case.

IMO he's making up the numbers, unlikely to see any time on the field, unless we get injuries.

I barely mentioned "match fit" as a major reason. :blink:

More concerned he hasn't been impressive enough to get onto the pitch much.

It'll do him some good to be included but he's not likely to get his boots dirty. 

 

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2 hours ago, WeeBud said:

After this summer I'd agree Oaky but given a free-kick to hit or a penalty to take in a three game mini-league and then knock-out competition I'd still take Griffiths in the short term. He's a striker rather than an attacker which makes him different to the other two.

I appreciate that and TBH, I'm gutted Griffiths isn't going because like you, when it comes to a free kick or poaching, I'd want him to be on the pitch in that position. It's a tough call.

Like others, I think the only player I'd swap would be Fleck and someone else, either Morgan or Gauld maybe but I trust Stevie to make the right call there. Ideally it would have been Jack but with him being out we've lost that option.

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Let’s face it,Scotland will have 3 games then out. Goals are at a premium so Griffiths should have been included. Too many defenders which indicates how the team might be set up. Glad to see inclusion of Patterson and Turnbull, not seen anything of Gilmour but at least young. A few should not be going though, Hanley, Cooper and Fleck. You could pick a decent side out of the squad I believe but, just like Saints, goals or lack thereof will be the problem.

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4 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Let’s face it,Scotland will have 3 games then out. Goals are at a premium so Griffiths should have been included. Too many defenders which indicates how the team might be set up. Glad to see inclusion of Patterson and Turnbull, not seen anything of Gilmour but at least young. A few should not be going though, Hanley, Cooper and Fleck. You could pick a decent side out of the squad I believe but, just like Saints, goals or lack thereof will be the problem.

^^^^^^^^^ Elvis's older more dour relative.

Same post, different thread. :byebye

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2 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Let’s face it,Scotland will have 3 games then out. Goals are at a premium so Griffiths should have been included. Too many defenders which indicates how the team might be set up. Glad to see inclusion of Patterson and Turnbull, not seen anything of Gilmour but at least young. A few should not be going though, Hanley, Cooper and Fleck. You could pick a decent side out of the squad I believe but, just like Saints, goals or lack thereof will be the problem.

FFS

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12 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Let’s face it,Scotland will have 3 games then out. Goals are at a premium so Griffiths should have been included. Too many defenders which indicates how the team might be set up. Glad to see inclusion of Patterson and Turnbull, not seen anything of Gilmour but at least young. A few should not be going though, Hanley, Cooper and Fleck. You could pick a decent side out of the squad I believe but, just like Saints, goals or lack thereof will be the problem.

I don’t think being a football supporter is a good pastime for your mental health.

Maybe try Elephant Polo where Scotland have been crowned World Champions at both male and female tournaments.

https://www.inveraray-castle.com/castle/the-family/elephant-polo

2F25A600-D048-4A8E-B2BD-D4D88B104252.thumb.jpeg.d1c45b61585dfd3c8ac9cd1e2df19539.jpeg


https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/scot-ecstatic-lead-all-female-team-4779733
 

99F17DEC-69FE-460E-8E60-AF7687B04A7B.jpeg.9ad30f734dc1cf35aaf6667790cc2bf5.jpeg

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15 hours ago, faraway saint said:

You don't see my point?

Let me retrace my steps here, you said..............

I then pointed out he's scored the grand total of feck all since, and had scored feck all in the previous 21 games.

5 goals in 35. (one every 7 games)

Griffiths, hardly prolific, has scored 4 from 22. (one in every 5.5 games) 

If you think having scored one more goal in and additional 13 games puts him above Griffiths I think you're having a laugh. :lol:

I doubt you've "seen" enough of Gilmour, especially as he's been warming the bench for the vast majority of the season, to make such a strong case.

IMO he's making up the numbers, unlikely to see any time on the field, unless we get injuries.

I barely mentioned "match fit" as a major reason. :blink:

More concerned he hasn't been impressive enough to get onto the pitch much.

It'll do him some good to be included but he's not likely to get his boots dirty. 

 

Ok I see where you’re coming from now but I think we’ve both misunderstood each other’s point. 
My original point about Forrest was meant in direct comparison to Griffiths from a Scotland point of view. I still believe that is a relatively fair comment, albeit as you say Forrest has played more games than Griffiths. I was never trying to make out Forrest was some sort of goal machine. 

As for Gilmour, I think we actually agree. Of course my opinion on how good he is/will become is largely built on speculation (although I don’t agree that he’s been nothing special in some of the games he’s played. He won a man of the match award in a game against Liverpool for a start and has drawn plaudits from pundits in many games). I’ll concede though that we haven’t really seen one of those performances since he returned from injury. 
But I agree that he probably won’t see much if any game time (I said as much in my post) but I still believe it is absolutely right to include him ahead of an older player who is equally unlikely to see any game time and more importantly is not the future. 

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2 hours ago, Yflab said:

I don’t think being a football supporter is a good pastime for your mental health.

Maybe try Elephant Polo where Scotland have been crowned World Champions at both male and female tournaments.

https://www.inveraray-castle.com/castle/the-family/elephant-polo

2F25A600-D048-4A8E-B2BD-D4D88B104252.thumb.jpeg.d1c45b61585dfd3c8ac9cd1e2df19539.jpeg


https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/scot-ecstatic-lead-all-female-team-4779733
 

99F17DEC-69FE-460E-8E60-AF7687B04A7B.jpeg.9ad30f734dc1cf35aaf6667790cc2bf5.jpeg

They have elephants in Inveraray?? 

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5 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

They have elephants in Inveraray?? 

I’d imagine so as they have a trunk road running thru the town 🐘

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17 hours ago, Slash said:

I understand the calls for Griffiths. We all remember his free kicks against England, but maybe Steve Clarke feels that he could be a disruptive figure around the squad. He has had his fair share of off field problems. This squad could be together for a month. That’s a long period to be cooped up. I’d want guys who are hungry and champing at the bit to take part in this tournament.
We have some real hard workers and good characters in that squad.
Strachan once commented on the manners of John McGinn where he got off the bus and rather than wander off with the squad he stayed to help the back room staff with all the training gear. Strachan said that McGinn would go far in the game and he has been proved right.

As Fitzy once said:

“Hard work beats Talent, when Talent does not work hard!”

And that’s why imho Griffiths has not been picked.

Agree. Imagine Griffiths got the nod to come off the bench ahead of the likes of Kevin Nisbet for example who has had a tremendous season, got his head down and worked for his call-up. 

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20 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Let’s face it,Scotland will have 3 games then out. Goals are at a premium so Griffiths should have been included. Too many defenders which indicates how the team might be set up. Glad to see inclusion of Patterson and Turnbull, not seen anything of Gilmour but at least young. A few should not be going though, Hanley, Cooper and Fleck. You could pick a decent side out of the squad I believe but, just like Saints, goals or lack thereof will be the problem.

Hanley, captain of newly promoted Norwich & Premier league players Cooper and Fleck are all playing at a very decent level and are just as deserving of a place than 10 games Patterson and a few games Gilmour.  Patterson and Gilmour may be brought along for the experience, or they may break through to a start, though the three players you have mentioned have just as much right to be there for the standard they are playing at. There is no-one off the top of my head who I think should be in front of them who missed out.

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