KIbble Damage Diary

[bazil85]

14 minutes ago, saint in exile said:

I didn't say they should get NO credit, but you're implying that they got us there, which is bollox.  OK, so were the Board to blame for us NOT achieving these things last season? Can't have it both ways, mate.

I said they ‘lead’ the club, which they do. That’s what a BOD is there for. They have ultimate accountability l, but there  is absolutely no ‘implication’ that it’s all them. That goes for the success & pitfalls of any given season, yes. 
 

This is (yet another) needless thread, attacking the club during one of its most successful spells in 40 years.
 

Animal is another poster, gagging for the club to fail for their ‘I told you so moment’ this ain’t it & hopefully they’re waiting a very long time to get it. 

[Albanian Buddy]

20 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

All of the blame, none of the praise eh? 
- Board hired Robinson 

- Board set budgets 

- Board oversee the governance of the whole club. 
 

They absolutely deserve a share of the credit for where the club is right now. 

With a massive overspend that resulted in one of the largest losses in a single year of our clubs history?

We were forced to sell young players mid season and reduce costs by letting go of our No9 “star” striker to try and break even this year?

We have been forced to make redundant staff at our academy - one of whom I know has been awarded an out of court settlement. 

Losing key staff at our academy has likely resulted in young prospects leaving our system. How do we quantify that loss long term?

It was a gamble that paid off - this season - just scraping in to top 6 as a result of Dundee United.

United have spent considerably more than us and are bottom having been in Europe this season.

United spent way more on player budgets and other operational expenses and are bottom.

Is this a sustainable model long term for St Mirren?

The board probably still cling to hope that John McGinn is transferred to a big EPL club this summer but that’s very unlikely. 

[Tonysaintee65]

7 minutes ago, waldorf34 said:

If its 4v 2 in favour of Smisa at board level then how have Kibble got their  way so 

8 minutes ago, waldorf34 said:

If its 4v 2 in favour of Smisa at board level then how have Kibble got their  way so often?

Oh that’s the easy part , the original 4 smisa appointees were bought into kibbles nonsense too, 

 

[saint in exile]

16 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

I said they ‘lead’ the club, which they do. That’s what a BOD is there for. They have ultimate accountability l, but there  is absolutely no ‘implication’ that it’s all them. That goes for the success & pitfalls of any given season, yes. 

So, the BOD IS to blame for the £1.5 million loss??

[faraway saint]

10 minutes ago, Albanian Buddy said:

 

It was a gamble that paid off - this season - just scraping in to top 6 as a result of Dundee United.

Wait a minute, GETTING into the top 6 is a result of playing every team 3 times and ALL down to what the manager and players achieved over 33 games.

This "scraping in" demeans that achievement and is feck all to do with Dundee United. 

[bazil85]

9 minutes ago, Albanian Buddy said:

With a massive overspend that resulted in one of the largest losses in a single year of our clubs history?

We were forced to sell young players mid season and reduce costs by letting go of our No9 “star” striker to try and break even this year?

We have been forced to make redundant staff at our academy - one of whom I know has been awarded an out of court settlement. 

Losing key staff at our academy has likely resulted in young prospects leaving our system. How do we quantify that loss long term?

It was a gamble that paid off - this season - just scraping in to top 6 as a result of Dundee United.

United have spent considerably more than us and are bottom having been in Europe this season.

United spent way more on player budgets and other operational expenses and are bottom.

Is this a sustainable model long term for St Mirren?

The board probably still cling to hope that John McGinn is transferred to a big EPL club this summer but that’s very unlikely. 

 

1 minute ago, saint in exile said:

So, the BOD IS to blame for the £1.5 million loss??

Many clubs our size were hugely impacted by Covid & the additional costs/ drop in income that came along. The last accounts pre-date this season though so I'm not sure why you're both bringing up the point. 

You can criticise the board all you want, that's any fans right. It won't change the fact though, this board has overseen a club finish, higher than we have seen for close to four decades. They absolutely deserve their part of the praise for that. Neither of you being willing to give it, but blaming them for everything else is double standards. 

As for most of your later points AB, they aren't correct/ good comparisons. St Mirren cut costs this season given the hit we took, last financial year. They didn't gamble by spending more. Even at that, we have had a successful season. Well done to all involved (including the big, bad Kibble ) 

[Albanian Buddy]

1 minute ago, faraway saint said:

Wait a minute, GETTING into the top 6 is a result of playing every team 3 times and ALL down to what the manager and players achieved over 33 games.

This "scraping in" demeans that achievement and is feck all to do with Dundee United. 

Yeah I’m sorry.

I certainly could have worded that far better than I did.

What I was trying to say was that nothing is guaranteed and the budgets the last few seasons have been beneficial to a higher league position but there are significant risks associated with that approach.

[Tonysaintee65]

9 minutes ago, Tonysaintee65 said:

 

Gordon Scott and Jim Gillespie were involved long before any sale took place, nothing wrong there, but it has to be remembered that for all the talk kibbles money was never invested in st Mirren it was paid back to Gordon Scott for his shares,  tony fitz was heavily involved at the time bringing kibble on board, so there’s 4 board member heavily invested from kibbles POV, then allowing kibble to place a kibble employee into the club set up as general manager didn’t help in keeping things balanced, he was in effect Tony’s right hand man, heavily influencing Tony’s decision, directly causing all of the early disasters that beset the the club

 

[alanb]

10 minutes ago, Tonysaintee65 said:

 

two still there then ?? and the SMiSA board ? has it changed opinions on Kibble ?

Maybe SMiSA board has changed since AW wants on it, but is he anti Kibble or anti JG/M McM.

Is this Twitter account managed by AW ? and his end game, AW to buy Kibble out ?

That will cost more than a few trinkets

[beyond our ken]

23 hours ago, billyg said:

So when did it become compulsory for Board members to all be St Mirren fans ? I don't care if there are some non-fans on the BOD as long as the club are benefitting from their input.  That was the small time attitude in the 70s too when the club , under Fergie , outgrew the Todd/Corson regime. If board members can help make a successful club , why do they have to be fans of the club too ? We should always have some "St Mirren men " on the board but I always welcome some diversity , it works at forward thinking non-insular clubs !

as long as they are competent and not compromised in any way, I'd agree.   I don't see that the track record is one of competence and if Gillespie's son really is at the academy then he needs to show there is no conflict there.

If the only criteria applied to Kibble appointees is that they work for Kibble then that is a problem, they need to be competent and free from conflict of interest as well.

[Albanian Buddy]

Just now, bazil85 said:

 

St Mirren cut costs this season given the hit we took, last financial year. They didn't gamble by spending more. Even at that, we have had a successful season. Well done to all involved (including the big, bad Kibble ) 

You do not know what the spend is this season - it could be more - only the accounts will show that unless you know differently? Maybe you do know and the mask is slipping. 

I personally don’t think we should be forced into making valuable long term staff redundant at our academy and then having to reach an out of court settlements when the club made errors.

How many out of court settlements have taken place under this boards leadership?

The overspend at Ralston was as a direct result in of Kibble appointed contractors. Why did this work not go out to tender like any normal business model?

It went from around £150K to £400K. No questions being asked?

So cut football coaches jobs to make up for the huge mistakes made at operational board level?

[saint in exile]

8 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Neither of you being willing to give it, but blaming them for everything else is double standards. ) 

I didn't criticise the BoD, nor do I blame them "for everything else", so please get your facts right.

[beyond our ken]

17 hours ago, guinness said:

Would have  been more of a success if it had stuck to original plan and bought the Club and not just  a part of it

That would just have resulted in a different set of appointees who would have had similar issues.  

[beyond our ken]

23 hours ago, bazil85 said:

Forgot one 

The directorship (including the Kibble) lead St Mirren to their highest league finish in almost four decades & put them in touching distance of European football  

While I enjoy and applaud our top six position, I have to point out that you would need freakishly long arms to to touch a Euro spot from where we are now.  That might be different come the end of the season where we might be closer or in need of the freakishly long arms and a couple of telegraph poles lashed together.  Time will tell.

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

47 minutes ago, Albanian Buddy said:

Yeah I’m sorry.

I certainly could have worded that far better than I did.

What I was trying to say was that nothing is guaranteed and the budgets the last few seasons have been beneficial to a higher league position but there are significant risks associated with that approach.

So are you saying our board shouldn't take risks and just settle for trying to stay in the league every season?

Any business that avoids taking risks will never achieve anything.

Because I know you I'm sure it's not what you mean, but your logic suggests the board is damned if they do and damned if they don't. 

[Kombibuddie]

1 hour ago, bazil85 said:

St Mirren cut costs this season given the hit we took, last financial year. They didn't gamble by spending more. Even at that, we have had a successful season. Well done to all involved (including the big, bad Kibble ) 

The BoD played a blinder securing the services of Stephen Robinson. Of that, there is no doubt.

Last March, after the 1-0 loss at Ross County, I bumped into Alan Wardrop in Johnny Foxes (inverness) & said to him, this new manager hasn't got off to a good start.

He replied that SR was the man to manage St Mirren & that "he'll do well for us" 

& so it passed to be.

However, imagine how much better it could have been, if a portion of that overspend or the costs cut to service £1.5 million overspend had been invested in the playing budget?

We'd have had our passports out & dusted down already.

Instead, financial constraints due to overspending, paying compo etc, has impacted on the playing budget & we had to settle for top 6 instead of top 5, top 4, or top 3.

Hopefully, the clusterf**k going on gets sorted sooner rather than later and SR can wave his magic wand for an assault on bettering top 6 next season.

[Albanian Buddy]

2 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

So are you saying our board shouldn't take risks and just settle for trying to stay in the league every season?

Any business that avoids taking risks will never achieve anything.

Because I know you I'm sure it's not what you mean, but your logic suggests the board is damned if they do and damned if they don't. 

I just don’t like seeing long term employees being made redundant due to significant overspend by our board. One particular project was channeled directly through Kibble’s preferred contractors. John Needham publicly admitted mistakes were made at boardroom level managing the finance over run on that project.

The higher playing budget has been a gamble that has paid off this season but as I pointed out with reference to United it is not a guaranteed solution to success. 

Had we dropped into the bottom 6 after the Kilmarnock result we would have lost a significant amount of league placement prize money. This prize money will hopefully go a long way to resolve some financial concerns.

I personally do not want us to go back to the days of 1988-1992 with excessive overspend by managers being allowed huge budgets. The debts accumulated back then resulted in a very dark period for our club that took many many years to put right. 

 

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

24 minutes ago, Albanian Buddy said:

I just don’t like seeing long term employees being made redundant due to significant overspend by our board. One particular project was channeled directly through Kibble’s preferred contractors. John Needham publicly admitted mistakes were made at boardroom level managing the finance over run on that project.

The higher playing budget has been a gamble that has paid off this season but as I pointed out with reference to United it is not a guaranteed solution to success. 

Had we dropped into the bottom 6 after the Kilmarnock result we would have lost a significant amount of league placement prize money. This prize money will hopefully go a long way to resolve some financial concerns.

I personally do not want us to go back to the days of 1988-1992 with excessive overspend by managers being allowed huge budgets. The debts accumulated back then resulted in a very dark period for our club that took many many years to put right. 

 

Aw come on, we’re a far cry from those days! 
As for redundancies, no one likes to see people lose their job but in efficient businesses that keep themselves lean, this is a regrettable fact of life. 

[Jockmd]

5 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Aw come on, we’re a far cry from those days! 
As for redundancies, no one likes to see people lose their job but in efficient businesses that keep themselves lean, this is a regrettable fact of life. 

So, with everything that's going on the board is running an, 'efficient business '? 

[bazil85]

2 hours ago, Albanian Buddy said:

You do not know what the spend is this season - it could be more - only the accounts will show that unless you know differently? Maybe you do know and the mask is slipping. 

I personally don’t think we should be forced into making valuable long term staff redundant at our academy and then having to reach an out of court settlements when the club made errors.

How many out of court settlements have taken place under this boards leadership?

The overspend at Ralston was as a direct result in of Kibble appointed contractors. Why did this work not go out to tender like any normal business model?

It went from around £150K to £400K. No questions being asked?

So cut football coaches jobs to make up for the huge mistakes made at operational board level?

Who am I being accused of being now? 😂 They have told fans they’ve had to make cuts on numerous occasions. The managers even referenced it in interviews. You literally go onto discuss this in your second paragraph (letting staff go) 

I don’t know, do you? Has your mask slipped? Are you the boardroom cleaner? 
 

Prove your point on the overspend at Ralston? Looks far more likely to be legacy issues that have accumulated over the years that we have had to sort out.
 

Questions have been asked, there has been NOTHING that suggests it’s the big bad kibbles fault. What are you actually accusing them of? 
 

Your last paragraph is again contradictory. Are you saying we have spent more this season or we have made huge cuts? A post that’s all over the place. 

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

3 minutes ago, Jockmd said:

So, with everything that's going on the board is running an, 'efficient business '? 

That depends who you believe?

Me, I’ll judge based on on field activities and words and numbers in a set of accounts, not the gossip of a bunch of sweetie wives on a football forum. 

[bazil85]

1 hour ago, Kombibuddie said:

The BoD played a blinder securing the services of Stephen Robinson. Of that, there is no doubt.

Last March, after the 1-0 loss at Ross County, I bumped into Alan Wardrop in Johnny Foxes (inverness) & said to him, this new manager hasn't got off to a good start.

He replied that SR was the man to manage St Mirren & that "he'll do well for us" 

& so it passed to be.

However, imagine how much better it could have been, if a portion of that overspend or the costs cut to service £1.5 million overspend had been invested in the playing budget?

We'd have had our passports out & dusted down already.

Instead, financial constraints due to overspending, paying compo etc, has impacted on the playing budget & we had to settle for top 6 instead of top 5, top 4, or top 3.

Hopefully, the clusterf**k going on gets sorted sooner rather than later and SR can wave his magic wand for an assault on bettering top 6 next season.

When the new BOD came in, they made changes to our operating model. That ruffled feathers & caused some short-term issues, many of which have been played out to death on this forum. 
 

They also clearly didn’t get everything right & spot on first time. (OMG Baz has went St Moan) 
 

As I have said before though, I think it’s quite unfair & fully unrealistic to expect everything to be Champaign & skittles from the very first minute the new BOD came in. What’s a better expression? To make an omelette you have to break some eggs.

[beyond our ken]

1 hour ago, Kombibuddie said:

The BoD played a blinder securing the services of Stephen Robinson. Of that, there is no doubt.

Last March, after the 1-0 loss at Ross County, I bumped into Alan Wardrop in Johnny Foxes (inverness) & said to him, this new manager hasn't got off to a good start.

He replied that SR was the man to manage St Mirren & that "he'll do well for us" 

& so it passed to be.

However, imagine how much better it could have been, if a portion of that overspend or the costs cut to service £1.5 million overspend had been invested in the playing budget?

We'd have had our passports out & dusted down already.

Instead, financial constraints due to overspending, paying compo etc, has impacted on the playing budget & we had to settle for top 6 instead of top 5, top 4, or top 3.

Hopefully, the clusterf**k going on gets sorted sooner rather than later and SR can wave his magic wand for an assault on bettering top 6 next season.

It may not seem so to some, I am delighted with a top 6 finish and the platform it offers for next year.  The only problem is that the 5 clubs above us are already better resourced and they will all get bigger slice of the 22/23 pie than us, they could well be even be stronger next year.  We had a chance to disrupt that, if only a little, this season and failed to take advantage.  

squad size & quality took us so far this year and we should focus on the positive of that, as for extra money there is not much evidence that we would have spent that wisely anyway

Bset hope for a better finish will be for either Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen to suffer another problematic period

[Albanian Buddy]

13 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Who am I being accused of being now? 😂 They have told fans they’ve had to make cuts on numerous occasions. The managers even referenced it in interviews. You literally go onto discuss this in your second paragraph (letting staff go) 

I don’t know, do you? Has your mask slipped? Are you the boardroom cleaner? 
 

Prove your point on the overspend at Ralston? Looks far more likely to be legacy issues that have accumulated over the years that we have had to sort out.
 

Questions have been asked, there has been NOTHING that suggests it’s the big bad kibbles fault. What are you actually accusing them of? 
 

Your last paragraph is again contradictory. Are you saying we have spent more this season or we have made huge cuts? A post that’s all over the place. 

You implied you did know that we had a smaller budget this financial year. 

“St Mirren cut costs this season given the hit we took, last financial year. They didn't gamble by spending more.”

We won’t know the extent of the spend on this seasons playing budget until the accounts are published. Just because we cut costs elsewhere does not mean that we actually reduced the playing budget. We just need to wait for the accounts to see what has changed. 

The club increased the staff budget around £734,000 based on last two accounts. 

We have been forced to offload squad members and academy staff.

Had we been able to retain the services of Brophy, Erhahon, Reid, Olusanya and Henderson who were part of our squad at the start of the season things may have been different regards league position.

John Needham at the last SMISA meeting referenced the significant overspend on Ralston. He freely admitted that financial control of that project was poor from a boardroom standpoint. 

Regarding that Ralston rebuild work. In my opinion it should have been put out to an open tender and managed far better on a weekly basis than it was.

It more than doubled the original budget estimate according to our chairman.

There is your proof unless you are calling our chairman a liar?

 

 

[bazil85]

20 minutes ago, Albanian Buddy said:

You implied you did know that we had a smaller budget this financial year. 

“St Mirren cut costs this season given the hit we took, last financial year. They didn't gamble by spending more.”

Yep, we did cut costs on the player side (reading on, you literally make this point re players that went in January). The fans have been TOLD, we had to. I choose to believe the club & don't see why they would lie about this. 

We won’t know the extent of the spend on this seasons playing budget until the accounts are published. Just because we cut costs elsewhere does not mean that we actually reduced the playing budget. We just need to wait for the accounts to see what has changed. 

Again, we were told this. We were told we were even still, a bit over where we wanted to be at the close of August transfer window and people would be moving on in January, which happened.

The club increased the staff budget around £734,000 based on last two accounts. 

We have been forced to offload squad members and academy staff.

So what? Who are you or I to say the club haven't gotten things right on staffing over the last season or so? The "staff" at a football club all play their part, and this football club has finished top 6 for the first time in almost 40 years. 

Had we been able to retain the services of Brophy, Erhahon, Reid, Olusanya and Henderson who were part of our squad at the start of the season things may have been different regards league position.

Which literally ties into my point that we have made cuts this year and what the club has said. None of them were regular starters under Robinson bar Erhahon and I doubt we would have stood in his way given the nature of his move. He's an example of our youth model working. Big contribution to the first team, sold for money and a sell on. 

John Needham at the last SMISA meeting referenced the significant overspend on Ralston. He freely admitted that financial control of that project was poor from a boardroom standpoint. 

Regarding that Ralston rebuild work. In my opinion it should have been put out to an open tender and managed far better on a weekly basis than it was.

This matter is closed, it is done. As I said in an earlier post, they didn't get everything right & it is unrealistic to expect a new board would get everything right with zero issues. Ralson was almost certainly legacy issues & blaming the Kibble makes no sense. Why would we put it out to tender when we can use ownership contacts to limit costs? It's baseless to think this would make things cheaper and more productive. If you have evidence otherwise, share it. You're raking over coals here. 

Were they a bit hasty with sharing original estimates? Could they have done more regarding scoping of work needing done? Sure. But to hold it against them forever more is just, needless. Having zero tolerance for mistakes or impacts when big changes happen to an operating model is utterly, ridiculous. 

It more than doubled the original budget estimate according to our chairman.

And you don't think that had a SINGLE thing to do with the inherited condition Ralston was in? Please. 

There is your proof unless you are calling our chairman a liar?

That is absolutely not proof that it was all the big, bad Kibble. You are taking a project that turned out to be more expensive than thought, and blaming them. What's your evidence for this? What are you actually saying they did? Stole the money? Didn't hire competent staff? Inflated costs to skim some off the top?