Scum Israeli cnuts slaughter innocents

[DougJamie]

On 10/23/2023 at 10:03 AM, Mr Optimistic said:

Even you know you your OP was completley unfounded. You let your prejudice cloud your judgement. Whatever you think about the Israel/Palestine situation you shouldn't have blamed the atrocity on Israel without evidence. Five days later Hamas, the worlds news agencies, people on the ground can't do it but  within hours you were able to tell us Israel slaughtered innocents' at a hospital. Thats not point scoring. Thats facts.

 

The facts are 5000 are dead...all innocent.   So my thread stands.  Hamas are scum but so is the facist Israeli Gov

[beyond our ken]

37 minutes ago, DougJamie said:

The facts are 5000 are dead...all innocent.   So my thread stands.  Hamas are scum but so is the facist Israeli Gov

The fact that many people have pointed out is that the bombardment of areas where civilians live and the order to vacte other areas are the reasons so many were using the hospital for shelter as well as healthcare, so  who blew up what only matters to a certain extent.  Something was going to explode in that area at some point and a load of innocents were going to be hurt.

Aside that, there are the thousands of civilians killed, around 50% of the population of Gaza is under 18, so it's not correct to say that all residents are combatants at this stage.

Hamas are responsible for their own actions, Netanyahu failed miserably on his security promises and could well have been relying on the threat of a disproportionate response as a deterrent to any hostilities.  The problem with perpetual threats is that people eventually become emboldened by living under them.  Netanyahu is a fool and it seems he failed to realise his responsibility extends to mitigating unintended consequences, so he bounces himself into killing loads more people when he knows he can't really disassemble Hamas in the way he promises.

[DougJamie]

Well said

[W6er]

Interesting:

 

 

[beyond our ken]

10 hours ago, W6er said:

Interesting:

 

 

So Israel is making threats against Russia now, regardless of how difficult that makes life for other nations trying to handle Russian threat.

Yet another promise they can't keep and an extension of the stance that the only answer to one killing is to kill 100 others.  Israelis should understand that when those in power fail so miserably with their unfulfillable promises, they will simply resort to sabre rattling and rabble-rousing in order to stay in power and prevent a subsequent government from uncovering the lies, corruption and incompetence that they inflicted on all.

Maybe we should all understand that.

[W6er]

1 hour ago, beyond our ken said:

So Israel is making threats against Russia now, regardless of how difficult that makes life for other nations trying to handle Russian threat.

Yet another promise they can't keep and an extension of the stance that the only answer to one killing is to kill 100 others.  Israelis should understand that when those in power fail so miserably with their unfulfillable promises, they will simply resort to sabre rattling and rabble-rousing in order to stay in power and prevent a subsequent government from uncovering the lies, corruption and incompetence that they inflicted on all.

Maybe we should all understand that.

Unless, they can use their influence to get the US/NATO to directly engage with Russia? Which could trigger a nuclear war, of course.

To be fair, I don't know whether Amir Weitmann speaks on behalf of the Israeli government, but I would have expected someone to clarify that! What he said, though, is clearly unambiguous and shocking.

[beyond our ken]

Just wanted to add my thoughts before I sign off from this thread

The "scum Israelis", in my view are the group in power who hide behind a weak Netanyahu as they continue to push their fear & persecution agenda so that they can gain & retain power, whether that be for the sake of Ideaology, personal gain, ignorance or a combination thereof.

The vast majority of Israelis would be reasonable people whose attitudes & instincts are tempered by the situation they find themselves in.  Like many in our country, the fear mongers have developed a warped sense of identity, entitlement and persecution in what they see as their homeland and a lot of ordinary people who would come to a different conclusion are being led up the garden path.  In work, I often refer to the work of Stanley Milgram when exploring behaviours and he sought out, as the child of Jewish refugees, to understand how perfectly decent and reasonable Germans were led to committ the atrocities of the third reich.  His research suggests to many that the presence of an "authority figure" who absolves people of any responsibility they might feel when carrying out command, a common subject or enemy, an unremitting message & line of command along with an end that justifies the means are the basic blocks of manipulating mass behaviour.  People's behaviours towards others are basically motivated by either fear (hatred is simply a product of fear) or kindness and you can convince people that the best way to be kind to their kin is to unite against someone else.  

There will only be peace for Israel once they accept the fragility and unsustainability of their position and the fact that they really should be doing more to educate their own people and look for a way out of conflict.  Israel is like Palestine, they are a weak nation if left to their own devices and their strength comes from those who subsidise and support them and Palestine's situation is that they are also a weak nation with significantly less outside support.  I really think that Israellis should be asking if it continues to be both fair and sustainable for them to be so dependent on other countries for their sustainability and protection.  I also think Israel needs to rein in their ambitions to restore their domain to what they have been led to believe is their birthright, it isn't.  No part of the earth is anybody's birthright, we are caretakers, not owners and the lack of a concept of being able to share is the backstory to all wars.

So my not very scientific view is that Israel needs to look to a series of compromises that restores human rights to everyone in their region and the outside actors need to step away from enabling one side whilst offering poor mitigation to the other for the harm done.  The outside actors , in my view, are so scared of offending the pro-Israelli lobby that they simply accede to the demands of the lobby and just continue to compound the mistakes of the past, probably thinking that as individuals they will will be footnotes in history by the time the obvious ultimate shitfest occurs.   In order to quell the pro-Israelli lobby they need to work on the attitudes INSIDE Israel so that the lobby can't continually demand arms & warfare.  Israel and their neighbours need to work on what they can do FOR each other rather than what they can do TO each other.

The whole area was a giant f**k-up as soon as the outsiders decided they knew best and the only way out of it is for outside parties to stop enabling the entrenched positions and foster a much more benevolent and compassionate attitude.  In short, take away the fear and you have no reason to fight.

All that being said, it seems to me that unless a totalitarian regime is in place, nobody settles for anything in the near-east and most of the screw-ups started with the removal of totalitarians.  At least it has been proven that warfare and killing is a cycle and not a solution so maybe there is hope, somewhere.

 

Debate, discuss, argue all you want, i might read it but won't be responding.

Edited October 25, 2023 by beyond our ken

[W6er]

@beyond our ken - Israel is not a 'weak nation':

 

I cannot vouch for the source, but it is pretty much accepted that the Israelis have LOTS of nuclear weapons. The Samson Option has been referenced many times and even has its own Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

You will be familiar with the Six Day War, surely? Israel defeated a coalition of Arab states, including Egypt, Jordan and Syria in just six days! They also annexed a lot of land and occupied the whole of the Sinai Peninsula. 

They have national service and massive reserve army on which they can call, if required.

I think it's fair to say that Israel is a far more powerful militarily than the UK! 

[W6er]

Interesting:

 

 

[ALBIONSAINT]

13 minutes ago, W6er said:

Interesting:

 

 

Hopefully helping to free the hostages. 

[alanb]

https://x.com/RaggedTP/status/1719747351424705008?s=20

 

Seems a lovely place

[faraway saint]

Posted this in both threads.....

 

[Slarti]

Posted this in both threads.....
 

You're just looking for double "likes", ya big "like" whore, ye. [emoji2957]

[faraway saint]

Just now, Slarti said:

You're just looking for double "likes", ya big "like" whore, ye.

Indeed, Betty will be along with another outburst any minute. 🤣🤣🤣

[portmahomack saint]

On 10/16/2023 at 8:15 AM, Jockmd said:

 

I somehow get the feeling they were waiting on those Hamas idiots to give them the excuse to start this cleansing, self defence my arse and you will reap what you sow 

It's absolutely disgusting how the Israeli government treat these people while the West sit and watch and do nothing to stop it, and some are helping them do it totally shameful,  and let's be clear these atrocities are not being committed by the Jewish people or there religion, but by a Zionist Government 

Makes you wonder who the real terrorists are on this planet 

 

[Jockmd]

2 hours ago, portmahomack saint said:

I somehow get the feeling they were waiting on those Hamas idiots to give them the excuse to start this cleansing, self defence my arse and you will reap what you sow 

It's absolutely disgusting how the Israeli government treat these people while the West sit and watch and do nothing to stop it, and some are helping them do it totally shameful,  and let's be clear these atrocities are not being committed by the Jewish people or there religion, but by a Zionist Government 

Makes you wonder who the real terrorists are on this planet 

 

Oct 7 is relayed as the starting point of all this killing.  But immediately before, there were over 300 men women and children killed by the IDF and settlers in the West Bank, where no rockets are fired into Israel, since the start of the year, .  And, since Oct7, 154 have been killed.

Also, 2150 Palestinians in the West Bank have been imprisoned since then without charge or trial - hostages?  This adds to the thousands already in prison without trial.

[ALBIONSAINT]

5 hours ago, Jockmd said:

Oct 7 is relayed as the starting point of all this killing.  But immediately before, there were over 300 men women and children killed by the IDF and settlers in the West Bank, where no rockets are fired into Israel, since the start of the year, .  And, since Oct7, 154 have been killed.

Also, 2150 Palestinians in the West Bank have been imprisoned since then without charge or trial - hostages?  This adds to the thousands already in prison without trial.

Now come on! I have been watching this battle since the 70s , no one is trying to say it all started in 7/10. 

[ALBIONSAINT]

8 hours ago, portmahomack saint said:

I somehow get the feeling they were waiting on those Hamas idiots to give them the excuse to start this cleansing, self defence my arse and you will reap what you sow 

It's absolutely disgusting how the Israeli government treat these people while the West sit and watch and do nothing to stop it, and some are helping them do it totally shameful,  and let's be clear these atrocities are not being committed by the Jewish people or there religion, but by a Zionist Government 

Makes you wonder who the real terrorists are on this planet 

 

It’s called self defence. I would hope the U.K. would do similar if a terrorist group deliberately killed 1400 woman, children and old people then kidnapped over 200 innocent citizens. Does it make you wonder who the real terrorists are? The Israeli army wear uniforms and give notice when bombing targets in Gaza. Hamas dress in civilian clothing and use the population of Gaza as human shields. Seems like a no brainer to me.   

[portmahomack saint]

31 minutes ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

It’s called self defence. I would hope the U.K. would do similar if a terrorist group deliberately killed 1400 woman, children and old people then kidnapped over 200 innocent citizens. Does it make you wonder who the real terrorists are? The Israeli army wear uniforms and give notice when bombing targets in Gaza. Hamas dress in civilian clothing and use the population of Gaza as human shields. Seems like a no brainer to me.   

You have a very short memory,  and would be very disappointed

The IRA bombed and killed many British civilian's including children I don't remember the UK carpet bombing the Bogside or the Falls road killing innocent woman children and babies in self defence and cutting off all their life support including water...  even in times of war there are rules 

[W6er]

I have been reading about Hamas's tunnels, really interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip

 

Quote

Citing a private briefing in February 2015, Daniel Rubinstein wrote that Israel discovered 100 km (62 mi) of tunneling during the 2014 Gaza War, one-third of which intruded upon Israeli territory.^[7] Ynet's Alex Fishman reported the same figure in 2017.^[8] Haaretz reporter Yaniv Kubovich reported in June 2021 that Hamas constructed "hundreds of kilometers of tunnels the length and breadth of the Gaza Strip" after some of them were damaged during Operation Guardian of the Walls.^[9]

 

That's going to make it very, very difficult for the Israelis to destroy Hamas, which is their stated objective. Who knows how many fighters they have down their? It's a veritable labyrinth. I would imagine Hamas fighters will have gas masks, though I doubt the Israelis would have sufficient quantities of gas to making gassing them feasible. The only other method would be to pump the tunnels full of water and drown them, and again, I'm not sure that's feasible. Sending troops down there will surely result in masses of casualties, especially as the tunnels are thought to be booby-trapped:

Quote

The tunnels are usually 20 m (66 ft) to 30 m (98 ft) beneath the surface.^[14][15] On average, each tunnel is approximately 2 m (6.6 ft) high by 1 m (3.3 ft) wide, and equipped with lights, electricity, and sometimes tracks for transporting materials.^[12] The tunnels are often booby trapped with improvised explosive devices. ^[12]

 The same article describes the experience of an Israeli hostage:

Quote

On 24 October 2023, Hamas released the 85-year-old Yocheved Lifshitz, who had been taken hostage in Hamas's attack on Israel on 7 October 2023. Lifshitz described walking for two to three hours through damp tunnels until she and other hostages reached a large hall. Lifshitz told reporters that Hamas has a "huge network" of tunnels that resembled a "spiderweb." According to Lifshitz, Hamas had prepared clean rooms with mattresses on the ground and the hostages received regular visits from doctors in their underground positions.^[19]

Bear in mind the average person walks at a pace of three miles per hour. Even if she walked at half that speed, in two hours she would have walked for three miles!

The Israelis have had to construct an underground barrier to prevent Hamas's tunnels from crossing the border: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tunnel_barrier_along_the_Gaza–Israel_border

 

[ALBIONSAINT]

3 minutes ago, portmahomack saint said:

You have a very short memory,  and would be very disappointed

The IRA bombed and killed many British civilian's including children I don't remember the UK carpet bombing the Bogside or the Falls road killing innocent woman children and babies in self defence and cutting off all their life support including water...  even in times of war there are rules 

No my memory is crystal clear about this actually. The IRA never mounted a deliberate incursion into the U.K. with the goal of shooting woman, children and babies at point blank range with machine guns. They also never kidnapped over 200 British citizens including 3 month old baby’s and took them back to Ireland. They did however use explosives indiscriminately which killed woman and children but that was not there direct goal as in the Hamas incident on 7/10. The IRA also used a telephone call with special password to warn of attacks. I also don’t think the IRA and Irish government wanted the British people to be completely exterminated. 

[portmahomack saint]

2 hours ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

No my memory is crystal clear about this actually. The IRA never mounted a deliberate incursion into the U.K. with the goal of shooting woman, children and babies at point blank range with machine guns. They also never kidnapped over 200 British citizens including 3 month old baby’s and took them back to Ireland. They did however use explosives indiscriminately which killed woman and children but that was not there direct goal as in the Hamas incident on 7/10. The IRA also used a telephone call with special password to warn of attacks. I also don’t think the IRA and Irish government wanted the British people to be completely exterminated. 

No.  But the Zionist's have to the Palestinian's people it's not just one side that has committed atrocities and still isn't as we can see on our TV

Look up the Deir Yassin Massacre

And the Saliha Massacre 

The Khan Yunis Massacre 

The Lydda Massacre 

And many many more on both sides of course

When does it all stop this madness

Edited November 8, 2023 by portmahomack saint

[faraway saint]

6 hours ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

No my memory is crystal clear about this actually. The IRA never mounted a deliberate incursion into the U.K. with the goal of shooting woman, children and babies at point blank range with machine guns. They also never kidnapped over 200 British citizens including 3 month old baby’s and took them back to Ireland. They did however use explosives indiscriminately which killed woman and children but that was not there direct goal as in the Hamas incident on 7/10. The IRA also used a telephone call with special password to warn of attacks. I also don’t think the IRA and Irish government wanted the British people to be completely exterminated. 

You're splitting hairs on this IMO.

Since the early 1970s, extrajudicial punishment attacks have been carried out by Ulster loyalist and Irish republican paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland. Attacks can range from a warning or expulsion from Northern Ireland, backed up by the threat of violence, to severe beatings that leave victims in hospital and shootings in the limbs (such as kneecapping). The cause of the attacks is disputed; proposed explanations include the breakdown of order as a result of the Northern Ireland conflict (c. 1970–1998), ideological opposition to British law enforcement (in the case of republicans), and the ineffectiveness of police to prevent crime.

Since reporting began in 1973, more than 6,106 shootings and beatings have been reported to the police, leading to at least 115 deaths. The official figures are an underestimate because many attacks are not reported. Most victims are young men and boys under the age of thirty years, whom their attackers claim are responsible for criminal or antisocial behaviour. 

[W6er]

3 hours ago, faraway saint said:

You're splitting hairs on this IMO.

Since the early 1970s, extrajudicial punishment attacks have been carried out by Ulster loyalist and Irish republican paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland. Attacks can range from a warning or expulsion from Northern Ireland, backed up by the threat of violence, to severe beatings that leave victims in hospital and shootings in the limbs (such as kneecapping). The cause of the attacks is disputed; proposed explanations include the breakdown of order as a result of the Northern Ireland conflict (c. 1970–1998), ideological opposition to British law enforcement (in the case of republicans), and the ineffectiveness of police to prevent crime.

Since reporting began in 1973, more than 6,106 shootings and beatings have been reported to the police, leading to at least 115 deaths. The official figures are an underestimate because many attacks are not reported. Most victims are young men and boys under the age of thirty years, whom their attackers claim are responsible for criminal or antisocial behaviour. 

Not sure I follow you, here. Punishment beatings were usually inflicted upon people within the paramilitaries' own communities - ostensibly for drug dealing, joy riding or other criminal behaviour. I appreciate that there was no trial and the evidence based upon hearsay, potentially unreliable witness (never cross-examined), etc. However, for a long time they had the support of their communities. Indeed, many who think our criminal justice system is a soft touch would probably like that sort of treatment to be meted out for certain crimes here - didn't you once claim that you would like to personally execute certain criminals?

Johnny 'Mad Dog' Adair was expelled from Northern Ireland, btw.

 

[Albanian Buddy]

4 hours ago, faraway saint said:

You're splitting hairs on this IMO.

Since the early 1970s, extrajudicial punishment attacks have been carried out by Ulster loyalist and Irish republican paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland. Attacks can range from a warning or expulsion from Northern Ireland, backed up by the threat of violence, to severe beatings that leave victims in hospital and shootings in the limbs (such as kneecapping). The cause of the attacks is disputed; proposed explanations include the breakdown of order as a result of the Northern Ireland conflict (c. 1970–1998), ideological opposition to British law enforcement (in the case of republicans), and the ineffectiveness of police to prevent crime.

Since reporting began in 1973, more than 6,106 shootings and beatings have been reported to the police, leading to at least 115 deaths. The official figures are an underestimate because many attacks are not reported. Most victims are young men and boys under the age of thirty years, whom their attackers claim are responsible for criminal or antisocial behaviour. 

Most shootings & beatings went unreported to the authorities for obvious reasons.

One of my friends who I worked with in the 80s was targeted many times by the IRA. He finally managed to escape the punishment beatings and tried to piece his life back together in England. 

Sadly he ended up committing suicide. I’ve no doubt that what he experienced during his short life at the hands of his “own people” had an impact on his death. 

He like many won’t even merit a mention in the official statistics. 

So sad. RIP John.